Mini 2266: GnG's Upick Mafia [GAME OVER]

[jjh927]

Yume would have had no protection on n-1
Shiro doctored Yume on N-2
I'm not aware of any protection on Yume in N-3 but by the sounds of it it would only take one thing

[jjh927]

I will say vigging Yume in N-3 is kinda scummy given I was coordinating actions and Yume was one of the people I could get to do things

There was a world where Yume was gonna steal Titus' role and use it during the day for a result. The only reason we didn't get that was because she immediately burnt her 1 exp to get the reviver and Shiro failed to funnel any exp in from the mage hood to make up that deficit


I'm certain Yume didn't have a bulletproof because she complained about not having one yet and wanted even more exp

[jjh927]

Yume also revived Pooky

Would have been nice if you'd cooperated with me via Shiro rather than doing your own thing but w/e

[jjh927]

I mean, the source of all your paranoia around me is presumably mastina

because, you know, she's kinda scum

[jjh927]

I think the issue with your hood is that you have been listening to Mastina too much, and when I see her claim I'm probably gonna call you all clowns for thinking it conftowns her somehow

[jjh927]

Do you think town!Mastina makes the clearly disingenuous argument that she is somehow conftown because Dwlee 'fell' for her fake E-1?

[jjh927]

When you're town, you can make insincere arguments, and you often do so in early day 1 because it generates content- ie, it has a pro-town purpose behind it.

Thing is, you're still making insincere arguments right now when there's no pro-town purpose behind it. You're just throwing in as many arguments as you can that you are town, particularly ones that do not make sense, and I've seen you trying to dilute the elimination pool whenever we've been on top of scum (eg gypyx, reinhardt/dwlee) by being willing to vote anyone else (eg Pooky, Yume, Shiro, me). It's non-committal; you still kept the scum in the pool because you couldn't argue against the consensus, but you have only voted scum when you can gain a better position from it.

[jjh927]

Like, I'm not looking for your scumgame right now

I'm looking for not your towngame

And I'm afraid you've made too many arguments that I know you know to be completely meaningless for you to be town here. How are you still maintaining the dwlee fake E-1 thing with a straight face? By your logic it would also conftown Yume and I, since we both noticed it as well. I explicitly didn't post in main thread after you did it so I could see what happened

[jjh927]

Mastina, how can your 'belief' that Dwlee fell for the fake E-1 conftown YOU? I am saying it was theatre and that you could very easily have told Dwlee to 'self hammer' in the scum PT- which, given Dwlee's level of activity otherwise, is highly likely as Dwlee probably wasn't checking the thread that regularly. Like, you're saying that your belief in a thing makes it more likely that it conftowns you when that makes no sense as you're lying if you're scum. I don't know for sure whether you believe it or not, but I do believe you realise that whether you believe it or not it doesn't make you or anyone else conftown. It's a thing that happened and could happen in exactly the same way regardless of your alignment

[jjh927]

To be fair Roden, FA is pushing a pretty valid point in that you explicitly said that vampires are not town aligned and Dunnstral has flipped as entirely town aligned

[jjh927]

Why would scum actually want Dwlee to 'not realise' it was a fake hammer? He was already guiltied scum and it's actually +scum to have him on the wagon since it denies town exp

[jjh927]

Why would scum!me not have got on the Dwlee wagon well before your E-1 and just got Dwlee to hammer?

Why would scum!me have got Shiro to res LLD over Pooky

Oh, and I got one reaaaaaaaaaaally big redacted "why would scum!me do X" if it comes to it


But as an aside I am also proven to have commuted last night phase which would be an interesting move if I was the last scum

[jjh927]

I'll remind pooky of it though because he might not have read all the warrior hood

[jjh927]

and honestly i dont need to read shit mastina should be killed

her argument about dwlee conftowning her like YOU CAN GET YOUR SCUMBUDDY TO CONFTOWN YOU IN THREAD IS A FUCKING JOKE AND I CANT BELIEVE ANYONE COULD TAKE IT SERIOUSLY FOR EVEN TWO SECONDS.

Indeed, and yet when I called it disingenuous Mastina threw the "no u" at me

[jjh927]

Your claim and your night actions can be ignored in their entirety because they don't conftown you

The neighbourhoods actions are fine
I am pretty sure I am responsible for at least 1 of the scum nightkill failures given I am a full, ungated commuter and have commuted N2/N3

Btw, Pooky and Shiro are two separate people

[jjh927]

Tbh, both aspects of my claim near conftown me- that is, the commute (which is proven) and an unclaimed bit, which is also proven to a point, whereas no aspect of your claim does

[jjh927]

I really think there is something on evil side of this setup that we didn't understand yet and its scaring me

There should be a massive scum side utility that is doing their job freely right now. in a setup with so many protective and investigations, this just doesn't make sense

Early on in the game, in a hood, I hypothesised that scum might have their own special scum-only skill tree, with a strongman, the engineer at 3 to masquerade as other trees, something else, and a 4th tier ability.

I decided that was wrong since it would only give scum 3 strongmans, but I guess that hypothesis is more likely again now

[jjh927]

To be fair Roden, FA is pushing a pretty valid point in that you explicitly said that vampires are not town aligned and Dunnstral has flipped as entirely town aligned

[jjh927]

But yeah if scum have a skill tree then I'd hazard a guess that their 4th tier ability is an alignment changer, but we can figure that part out if we lim a third scum and the game doesn't end

[jjh927]

Why would scum actually want Dwlee to 'not realise' it was a fake hammer?

Scum

would

want Dwlee to realize it was a fake hammer, that's my point precisely for why Dwlee not realizing it wasn't a real hammer makes all the members of the sneak neighborhood conftown.

I mean, as you can see from my point immediately following, I just didn't parse my sentence right. Dwlee being on wagon was something scum would actually want.

He was already guiltied scum and it's actually +scum to have him on the wagon since it denies town exp

Only if someone hammers after Dwlee L-1s themselves.

If Dwlee left their self-vote on, guess what?

While that denies us one member on the wagon, it allows for the entire rest of the wagon to be what the town chooses it to be. Since Dwlee couldn't cast a hammer vote while already self-voting, that means the only way for the day to end was if the town chose to let the day end and have a wagon composition they were satisfied with.

In other words, Dwlee casting the self-vote without it being an actual hammer was incredibly pro-town because it would let the town choose the other five names on the wagon freely.

I don't recall that happening. What actually happened was a vote fairly quickly afterwards and the day ending. What was happening BEFORE Dwlee voted was that we were already dictating who should or should not be on the wagon. Except, that Dwlee wasn't on the wagon before. It wasn't protown at all and you're justifying it very badly post-hoc.

Why would scum!me not have got on the Dwlee wagon well before your E-1 and just got Dwlee to hammer?

Why would scumastina not have cast a

real

Dwlee vote and just got Dwlee to hammer?

Because I don't think anyone wanted you to be on the wagon and that would look bad for you.

Why would scum!me have got Shiro to res LLD over Pooky

Is there any tangible difference in the order of the resurrections done? A resurrected player is still resurrected no matter if the resurrection was N3 or N4, so resurrecting them in a specific order doesn't shed any light on alignment.

Yeah but maybe think about the question here. I wanted to talk reads with LLD because I thought LLD would actually read the game and then provide me with a different perspective but the only read she has discussed in any detail at all is me, and she's wrong. I should have had pooky resed even though I figured he was unlikely to read the game and would probably just agree with me because we have a very similar perspective. For scum!me that deliberation process would have gone the exact opposite way because ressing pooky a day earlier would increase my influence.

But as an aside I am also proven to have commuted last night phase which would be an interesting move if I was the last scum

Okay and by what rulebook does a Commute disable scum from multitasking?

That it doesn't make flavor sense for scum to kill from out of town?

...No, nothing in Multitasking/Commuter notes from a

mechanics

/

Normal Game

perspective, that a Commuter cannot also kill. A Mafia Commuter cannot kill while commuting if the scum

lack

multitasking, sure! But a Mafia Commuter is, explicitly, completely and entirely permitted to kill if the scum have multitasking.

Something you as a mechanically-oriented player are perfectly aware of.

I have literally never seen a multi-tasking commuter. Commuter is a role that explicitly cannot act when it activates. And to flip that back on you- you know that.

[jjh927]

I mean, your role is built around you being a liar. Having to say "I'm town" every other post doesn't mean you are town? Becoming a 3p as scum is a possible scenario. It might also be that you did actually skew your claim a bit here, because while you don't fakeclaim unless absolutely necessary, sometimes it is necessary to skew details that would literally confirm you as scum to being things that make sense if you are town

[jjh927]

I'm baffled that you could still try to argue that your fake E-1 had literally any game effect whatsoever, honestly

We've explained it enough times that it really doesn't

Part of the reason you're so clearly scum here to me is that I actually respect your ability to parse logic to the point where I can't believe you would still, at this point, genuinely be making the argument that you conftowned your entire hood with that

[jjh927]

You know what else would get you to fakeclaim your role as scum?

A mafia role that enforced that you had to fakeclaim, given in response to the pick of "I never fakeclaim as scum."

[jjh927]

Okay, if you want to pretend you have persuasive reasons I haven't countered, name your single strongest reason right now

[jjh927]

I was being wagoned on day start by literally just you and Pooky because Roden claimed a guilty which then turned out to not be a guilty

Note that Shiro's immediate reaction was to vote Roden because my alignment is near confirmed to Shiro

[jjh927]

Roden could well be the correct lim here tbh

I kinda thought he might be town that was playing in an anti-town way because of a 3p side wincon, but that ship has sailed or he'd have claimed that was why he was being anti-town

[jjh927]

The dead aren't gonna have changed alignment just by being resurrected. If they've turned scum it's a result of an alignment changing mechanic of some kind, which would probably be the 4th tier ability on a scum-only skill tree

[jjh927]

Roden could well be the correct lim here tbh

I kinda thought he might be town that was playing in an anti-town way because of a 3p side wincon, but that ship has sailed or he'd have claimed that was why he was being anti-town

I...literally claimed that?

I'm sorry but did everyone forget everything I said yesterday and that I hard pushed both scum while trying to stop town mis-elims

Did you? I thought you said you didn't have an explanation for why Dunnstral turned out to be unambiguously town-aligned

Like, I'm saying if instead of saying "I don't have an explanation" you had said "I lied" I would be fine with that

[jjh927]

Okay Yume is about to gladiate and make the literal worst play in the game

[jjh927]

Classic

[jjh927]

Uh

Idk what happens if you gladiate a reflect

She's probably going to gladiate me based on context, from which I think you can see just how horrendous this play is

[jjh927]

Yume, you remember how in the hood you were still hung up on that one game 6 years ago where people did things you didn't think were optimal and your faction lost because of it?

You're being those people right now. Why is your freedom to choose this action right now more important than the opinions of literally everyone else in the game? It's not. I can't stop you doing it except with words. But when it comes to the endgame, however things transpire, I hope you learn a lesson about how ultimately mafia is about making choices because you believe them to be right, and not just making a choice and sticking to it. Maybe you can cite this game rather than one from over half a decade ago as the reason for a changed mentality going beyond it. The gladiate ability is the epitome of making a choice and not being able to take it back, and right now you would be using it in a moment of weakness. You will be wrong.

[jjh927]

I mean, it's not more important than winning

It's just that you don't recognise that you're someone who makes choices too, and when you make choices at the expense of other players in the game, you actually lower your chances of winning

[jjh927]

To be quite honest, I've seen you make whole strings of badly informed choices in this game, and I've explained why they are badly informed and that you should not do them

[jjh927]

I haven't?

Christ, Yume, do you know how many games I've been nightkilled in night 1 and sat down to watch town bumble about with no direction? Happens a lot of the time- I just sit back and enjoy the show because I probably got scum eliminated on day 1 or otherwise pointed directly at them, which is doing my bit.

It's not like town would be suddenly cohesive if you were still alive in your case.

[jjh927]

Have you considered trying to get better at it

[jjh927]

This got swept under the rug a bit, but does anyone have an explanation for Yume surviving that n3 vig that got claimed

[jjh927]

I mean, I'm willing to believe given that I haven't seen shit in the hood that there's a misconception around Roden

[jjh927]

I said vampires aren't town-aligned,

Never mind

[jjh927]

Could you reiterate for me all the info you got about vampires, Roden

[jjh927]

We aren't necessarily just reviving people

Roden, I'm trying to take you in good faith here so maybe reiterate your info so that if there is a miscommunication here I can identify it

[jjh927]

I think you're town by play, Roden. That is why I want you to just reiterate it

[jjh927]

Literally just give me all the information you have in one post as though you haven't said it before

[jjh927]

It would be helpful to me if you did this

I am not trying to catch you in a contradiction with what you said before

[jjh927]

I'm trying to question everything surrounding Roden and vampires here, so could someone let me know if the exp stuff all lines up fine with FA buying a vig

[jjh927]

Damn, it's my scumday

Cool

[jjh927]

Yume needs me to explain every 24 hours that 2+1 does not equal 4 and we unfortunately could not afford to get the role steal in the previous night phase because she spent an exp immediately on getting the reviver when I said not to do that

This does not amount to be not wanting to be confirmed town, although honestly I have bigger fish to fry, like limming scum!Mastina

[jjh927]

I'm trying to question everything surrounding Roden and vampires here, so could someone let me know if the exp stuff all lines up fine with FA buying a vig

0.25 + purchased retry + Day 1 challenge + New day = 1.25 (end of D1) + New Night = 1.5 (end of N1) + song + New day + Day 2 Challenge = 3.25 (end of D2) + New night = 3.5 (end of N2) + New day + challenge + being on wagon = 5.25 (end of D3)

everyone who've been playing and did a challenge or two can have an ultimate skill and beyond that at this stage of the game.

Okay but is it known what you spent your exp on and when?

[jjh927]

Yume, there are many aspects to persuasion. As you may note, Pooky is fulfilling the role of "guy who keeps saying to lim mastina", for which I am appreciative. However, the people who need to be convinced are the people who want to lim Roden, so I need to find the way of explaining how Roden can still be town that I believe exists

[jjh927]

I don't just say a thing and get everyone to listen to me. I have an awareness of what other people are thinking and what might be persuasive to them.

[jjh927]

Role wise, one of mastina's picks was that she never fakeclaims as scum in a game with post restrictions. Have you considered she may be unable to claim her real role?

[jjh927]

Roden, you're kinda halfway between rolling over and not

Please could you just reiterate for me all the info you got about vampires or I'll give up on eliminating Mastina in this phase

[jjh927]

Why can't you just repeat the info you were given
I'm trying to help you here

[jjh927]

You do that work and I'll do a whole bunch of work convincing people

Continue to invest effort in refusing and ultimately I'm left wondering how this is lower effort than making a statement for me

[jjh927]

Like, right now you're supposed to be annoyed about how people have misinterpeted what you said

Why not be explicitly clear about what info you got and let me get to the bottom of this

[jjh927]

Yeah I mean, he's definitely pushing me towards that conclusion even though it's probably mutually exclusive with scum!mastina

Although maybe the scumteam is 4 people. Wouldn't be too ridiculous given the revivers, actually

[jjh927]

Nobody did

We didn't have the exp

[jjh927]

Okay Roden since you're still obstinately refusing I will give you a little more direction

Please give me all the info you have about vampires so I can setup spec about the link between Dunn flipping town, Dunn targeting FA who was previously highly likely to be town, FA's vig on Dunn, Dunn presumably having enough exp to buy a bulletproof with little reason not to, your indication that vampirism can spread, and my read on your play still being town. If you were given information by the moderator it was probably accurate at the time it was given.

[jjh927]

Oh, also, if you want to understand how the wagon was formed, it was entirely predictable to me. Nobody particularly cared about who they were voting at the time, and nobody had any reason to townread Gypyx. Town acts predictably, particularly earlygame, and I tend to have a pretty good idea of what other people are thinking. The wagon built faster than it normally does but ultimately, if I'm thinking "everyone would probably vote here but hasn't said so yet" I'm usually right and occupy the first very lazy vote on a wagon on scum.

[jjh927]

Like, my immediate reaction from that wagon was that everyone on the wagon was town because it lined up with where I thought people's mindsets were, if they were genuine

[jjh927]

He did spend 1.5 exp to give me 0.75, yes

I mistakenly thought he was on wagon so I thought he might have had enough for a bulletproof

[jjh927]

Mastina, the issue is, beyond anything else, that you have made a very large post there with a collection of things you are saying you have never done before as scum, while fully aware you have never done them as scum. Your only reason to scumread me appears to be that I should know better than to scumread you when frankly your last scumgame was one I had no idea how to identify. I understand how your logic works- I also believe that when you are town you can understand when, if you play the logic out and it is wrong, and this is pointed out to you, then you can adjust and realise that.

You can have time though. You are clearly trying, which is a lot more than I can say for Roden, who still refuses to restate the information he got about vampires. It is possible I think too much of your play. Ultimately you haven't trully aligned with me on anything this game, and more importantly you haven't listened to me. At all. In a game I know my reads have been solid. It doean't make sense to me how I can tell you that Shiro and Yume are beyond a doubt town to me and you can still just vig Yume. I expected on day 1 that you'd be at your best as either alignmemt, so looked to judge your alignment based on game impact, and your game impact has been clearly antitown from my perspective. I might have relaxed that if I'd continued to get an updated picture of your mental state, but I only read your blog at the start.

VOTE: Roden

[jjh927]

Quite possibly, but my experience with town roden indicated to me that he'd probably be willing to humour me and state the info he got rather than refusing non-stop

[jjh927]

Mastina's towncase on herself is kinda pointless because nothing she has done is out of the range of things she could do as scum, and she is aware of all the meta stuff so nothing is a 'tell'. Her play has been recognisably anti-town and mechanically the exp stuff has been entirely transparent but has had 0 impact whatsoever, so it's very weak that she is using this to say she is town when it's a mechanic that is mostly transparent anyway.

[jjh927]

Great question

Mastina claims to have vigged her n2
Roden claims to have vigged her n3


I got Shiro to protect her n2 in case she got vigged but there's no explanation for her survival in night 3

[jjh927]

Pooky, if you'd been talking in the warrior hood you'd have any idea what was going on

[jjh927]

I want to get confirmation of as many things around the masoniser as possible before we look to end the day
To be honest, I wanted some questions answered before it got used, but Yume wanted to use it immediately I guess.

We can finally actually shed some light on the masoniser though. Titus is not a trustworthy source on its mechanics and Yume has already revealed a key difference in phrasing that I kinda explicitly asked Titus about and got a different and slightly unexpected answer for. Meanwhile Mastina will probably be more willing to answer questions about the receiving end of the masoniser than LLD.


So yeah, in particular- Mastina, to what extent is Yume's alignment confirmed to you?

[jjh927]

i don't have access to the warrior hood dude

Why didn't you say so? LLD got access back after getting resed so there's definitely a mod error there

[jjh927]

Same tbh but Yume just got confirmation she is not mafia

Yume did also roleblock her last night phase and we got yet another no kill but who knows what's going on in this game

[jjh927]

Personally, I am really concerned about how we have resurrected more players than there have been scum nightkills

You're probably not going to want to humour the existence of a zombie faction if you're one of them though

[jjh927]

I think the key is the kind of bastard game this is

[jjh927]

Also nah, if the masoniser was a cult thing then Yume stealing the role would not force her to use it

[jjh927]

You're right that it feels like waaay too much power. It's why I don't think anyone is planning on resurrecting Roden who died under the impression anyone would care about resurrecting him. I thought scum might have the ability to kill all the resurrected players at once but they haven't even made a normal kill for 3 phases. Scum wincon is worded in the same way town wincon is, which is interesting. I still think scum might have some kind of alignment changer.

This isn't the kind of bastard game with mod lies in it though

[jjh927]

My setup spec around the idea that scum might have a special skill tree was likely false because of Roden's role/results

It is possible though that scum might have different tier 4 abilities though

[jjh927]

This game would be so much easier if Mastina was mafia

[jjh927]

Why even ressurect anti-town player who can't make simple statement "I am town, i just have additional wincon and lied to you"?

Yeah. I was pissed at that flip. I gave Roden so many opportunities to just admit he was lying and he just insisted on blaming everyone else for not moving past him lying without him acknowledging it

No way that he's getting resurected

[jjh927]

Yume, could you upgrade pooky

You should have an engineer going spare and I forgot he wasn't upgraded

[jjh927]

I mean, that's just multiball.

But yeah, I did specifically ask Titus about whether it worked on "town" or "not mafia"

[jjh927]

Yume, can you confirm on your end what the masoniser confirms to your target about your own alignment?

[jjh927]

Also maybe ask about what would happen to the PT if someone's alignment changed

[jjh927]

We have plenty of time so don't worry

Might be worth doing massclaim today even

[jjh927]

Very useful

Makes it less likely that there are alignment swapping mechanics that don't involve death

[jjh927]

I am certain that Shiro is town. I don't really know about Enchant any more

[jjh927]

Fullclaim

[jjh927]

Did you register when I told you to fullclaim, enchant

[jjh927]

What do you mean "trade abilities per skill trees"

[jjh927]

Also haven't you given different people the 0.5 exp on different phases

[jjh927]

Also there are like, no cops in the game and your upgrade ability would also get effectively overridden by the 1 shot miller in the mage tree?

And I didn't get 0.5 exp at eod3

[jjh927]

Also, how come you didn't try to set up an infinite exp scheme?

If you gain the same amount of exp as your target, why not just keep passing exp back and forth?

[jjh927]

That's a pretty sizable mod error given it delayed Yume stealing the masoniser by a phase

[jjh927]

Actually maybe not as I still wouldn't have hit an integer and Yume also only needed 0.25 exp

[jjh927]

Speaking of, maybe I'd be more sympathetic to your plight if you'd sent Yume 0.25 exp or even given Shiro 1 exp on that night phase when I indirectly requested it

[jjh927]

Anyway yeah I think you might be a threat to town that doesn't have a nightkill

The idea that a neutral 3p that is not a threat to town could get a godfather as an upgrade is pretty laughable tbh

Like, is that actually an upgrade to a 3p that doesn't have a major incentive to remain hidden?

[jjh927]

At any rate, I have now received 0.5 exp retroactively

Also nah, you're the third person in this game to claim a third party wincon, although the only one of them to claim to not have a town one too

[jjh927]

If I'm being honest your wincon also sounds unrealistic as it's harder than just survivor. It would make sense as an extra, but not by itself.

To put it in simple terms, you aren't actually gonna meet it even if you do keep living. Yume has spent 9 exp

[jjh927]

Technically, once you've claimed survivor there's a point at which you are obligated to scumside by game theory, and town only need to keep you around for as long as there are decent leads on scum

Claiming as a survivor is usually negative for your survival but is itself a pro-town move that shows willing


In your case I don't really believe you

[jjh927]

Enchant does strike me as the kind of person who thinks 3ps make good fakeclaims

[jjh927]

VOTE: Enchant

I'm happy to just do this

[jjh927]

I'd say you can't come back to life again but you upgraded so you can't really die again

[jjh927]

I've been keeping this to myself, but I'm a liiiiitle bit concerned about what's gonna happen now the challenges have counted down to 1. What happens at the end of the countdown?

[jjh927]

I inned on this with an expectation that it'd be bastard mechanics and not just lies, which means that masoniser being fake kinda just sucks.


Setup wasn't balanced great. Scum needed an accessible strongman every night to make more than 1 successful nightkill ever. Balance of the exp skill stuff could have been handled, if you assume the bulletproof only blocks against being vigged and not the scumkill. To be honest, scum could have had their own tree like I theorised.

[jjh927]

But at least it was fun

[jjh927]

Ngl, the amount of vitriol sent my way for trying to play to my wincon was really uncalled for.

Roden could well be the correct lim here tbh

I kinda thought he might be town that was playing in an anti-town way because of a 3p side wincon, but that ship has sailed or he'd have claimed that was why he was being anti-town

I...literally claimed that?

I'm sorry but did everyone forget everything I said yesterday and that I hard pushed both scum while trying to stop town mis-elims

Did you? I thought you said you didn't have an explanation for why Dunnstral turned out to be unambiguously town-aligned

Like, I'm saying if instead of saying "I don't have an explanation" you had said "I lied" I would be fine with that

[jjh927]

If you'd just admitted you were lying to achieve your wincon rather than insisting you were telling the truth but not telling me what you were telling the truth about, you would have remained as town as you were when I locktowned you

[jjh927]

By the way Yume-

At some points I absolutely was manipulating you. That's not inherently mafia play for me; if I'm trying to convince a player who is more emotionally driven than logical, then it's just the better tool for persuasion. I felt like you got a lot better at about day 4 and I let you do your thing at that point- you were less afraid to reach conclusions and that's a really good thing you can work on to improve as a player. If I had admitted in the game I was manipulating you though, I don't think you'd ever have been able to release the paranoia.

[jjh927]

Oh btw JJH there was in fact a 4th skill tree but it was scrapped in set up. Basically there would have been alignment changers and a bunch of other busted roles with it's own PT to chat in. However that was scrapped because I decided to remove alignment changes this game.

Yeah in my head I was picturing

Bastard Tree
1-shot Strongman
1-shot Redirect
1-shot Engineer

with an alignment changer as the 4th tier.

Scum could have alternatively had a different engineer that unlocks a different more negative utility ability but still blocks the 'true' upgrade from occurring in the future

[jjh927]

I was the doctor on Yume on night 3

THIS BOTHERED ME SO MUCH LMAO

No literally a MUP player with a N3 doctor flips at night and everyone wonders what possibly could have happened.

lmao I completely missed that

Tbh though I kinda just stopped caring about how it happened because it didn't ultimately mean anything

[jjh927]

Just to note, as much as I am criticising the setup balance, my approach to design in upicks is that I take several billion years to design them and keep putting it off week by week by clumsily stating that I'm almost done until eventually I have something I think is balanced- so it's still very cool that you produced an enjoyable game and did so in a reasonable timeframe. Also, I do recall running a upick where everyone had all 3 of their picks in some form, with 2 of them getting unlocked for people when they completed various conditions occurring in the game, and it was a fucking nightmare to design/mod, so props on this

[jjh927]

This had all the makings of lolbalance but wasn't swingy enough and ended up just being townsided, basically

[jjh927]

By the way Yume-

At some points I absolutely was manipulating you. That's not inherently mafia play for me; if I'm trying to convince a player who is more emotionally driven than logical, then it's just the better tool for persuasion. I felt like you got a lot better at about day 4 and I let you do your thing at that point- you were less afraid to reach conclusions and that's a really good thing you can work on to improve as a player. If I had admitted in the game I was manipulating you though, I don't think you'd ever have been able to release the paranoia.

I never did my own thing, not really. It was you and mastina who were the solvers, while I supported you.

On day 4, Mastina and I were both directly opposed. I did end up backing off, but you were actively looking at both of us and trying to make a decision, and your decision in that day phase was to vote neither of us. That was correct.

[jjh927]

Ngl, the amount of vitriol sent my way for trying to play to my wincon was really uncalled for.

You should have claimed your real role after I had died because you were town and could win normally

But instead you continued to lie and act dodgy and avoid explaining what happened with your role

You wouldn't have died if you claimed your real role and said you lied

I was already getting voted out for lying, admitting that I lied doesn't change that outcome.

Yes it does. I was literally anticipating exactly that. Town would be able to just admit the lie and say it was for a 3p wincon and worth a try. It was entirely because you didn't admit that you lied that I couldn't go to bat for you and ultimately just voted you out.

[jjh927]

I did fullclaim my flavours. All of my flavours come from (or are) a cool recent anime

https://anilist.co/anime/113717/Ousama-Ranking/
https://anilist.co/anime/134252/Fantasy ... Ojisan-to/
https://anilist.co/anime/126213/Shin-no ... himashita/

Watch all of them

[jjh927]

Oh I loverised Shiro on night 1 lmao

I think that fact would have got mastina off my back very fast

[jjh927]

What the fuck was dunnstral's blood pact

[jjh927]

Night 3 action resolution seems to have an error

Bodyguard text:
1-shot bodyguard: Night only. Must send PM to activate. May target another player and any killing actions will be redirected towards you instead.


mastina bodyguards Titus
Roden bodyguards Titus
Roden vig shoots Yume
Roden purchase history checks jjh
Frozen Angel bought BP and vig shot
Frozen Angle shoots Dunnstral
Frozen Angel detective checks mastina
Enchant godfathers
Enchant 1-shot ninjas
Enchant revives pooky
Enchant shoots Yume
LLD bodyguards Yume
jjh927 commutes
Yume revives Pooky



Yume seems to have been the scumkill on night 3 (!) and also vigged by Roden. LLD bodyguarded Yume and should have eaten both shots and died.

[jjh927]

Bodyguard only draws one kill on self as i remember.

Bodyguards can vary.

The text I was given when I bought one was:

1-shot bodyguard: Night only. Must send PM to activate. May target another player and any killing actions will be redirected towards you instead.

Keywords in this case are "any killing actions". That's plural.

[jjh927]

Bodyguards don't redirect doctors as well. Just killing actions. So LLD would be hit by two kills; the doctor on Yume wouldn't apply because the kills get redirected

[jjh927]

I mean, it theoretically could have swung that way, but lolbalance is about averages and if you give abilities to everyone then town get to use them more than scum

It really just wasn't swingy enough for it to wind up swinging towards scum on a probabilistic level

Your example for 4 exp to get the rolesteal only to use it to duplicate a strongman is A LOT when a bulletproof is 1 exp, and it's totally unexplained exp that goes missing, and only duplicates it once because you can't steal a stolen ability. Same goes for the vig. If town gave scum enough exp to get vigs on n1 and they all just happened to go into the warrior tree for the vigs, that'd involve town giving a huge amount of resources to scum.

At the end of day 1, which would have been the most productive day for production of exp, there was a total of 16 full integer exp points floating around. 6 of those were in the sneak hood which scum didn't have access to unless reinhardt moved over there.

A vig was worth 4 points. And they didn't even know it was a vig.


Overall, it is predictable that things went how they went, with individual players being willing to pass a small amount of exp to achieve something early on, but generally with people they trusted based on day 1 and in a manner that scum would have been held fully accountable for their actions if they misused the exp.

[jjh927]

Basically, because there wasn't a lot of exp floating around and so big ticket stuff required either highly telegraphed actions over multiple days or significant levels of cooperation, players were fully accountable for exp related actions. The crazy scum plays you're picturing just wouldn't ultimately lead to a scum stomp because of how clear the misuse of exp would be

Also, once the reviver became public knowledge it was clearly the +town option, barring a reasonable level of paranoia

[jjh927]

Also, town can really snowball in this whereas scum cannot. If scum lose a player, they're down a huge amount of options in terms of exp related actions and exp generation. Once it's down to the last scum they are literally never making another nightkill again.

[jjh927]

Scum had SLIGHTLY more access to exp than individual town players, but still massively less overall. If they have to burn everything on counterplay that might not work to prevent revives, how will they get anything done at all

This also doesn't address how if scum get limed day 1 that is a direct path to basically town autowin

[jjh927]

Remove a single scum player, especially earlygame, and scum lose a huge amount in the exp side of things proportionally against town. And once there is only one scum player left, they will lose at almost any point in the game because they will never succeed in another nightkill.

[jjh927]

If your idea of scum snowballing involves town literally giving scum all of their exp then sure

Any setup is balanced because the entire scumteam could be locktowned by the entire playerlist on day 1

[jjh927]

Also I did think of a way of verifying someone's exp that I kept in reserve in case I wanted to become the fun police.

It costs 0.25 to retry a challenge. If someone claims to have X.Y exp, then give them (1-0.Y) exp, get them to give all their exp to someone in the same hood as them, fail the challenge, and attempt to retry it.

[jjh927]

Remove a single scum player, especially earlygame, and scum lose a huge amount in the exp side of things proportionally against town. And once there is only one scum player left, they will lose at almost any point in the game because they will never succeed in another nightkill.

I mean, yes--but this is true of any game. An early scum death reduces scum power and increases town power. That's inherent to the design of a mafia game.

That's swing.

While you can say it's more likely to swing towards town (because it is, the game

was

townsided), it's not guaranteed to swing towards the town even remotely.

How different does this game look if there's two town mislims in a row especially with the two potential 3ps going for 3p?

Two town mislims in a row is something I would say is entirely not unreasonable to have happen in a game. It didn't happen since we eliminated Gypyx on D2, but we still had players defending Gypyx on D2 so it was fully possible that Gypyx could have lived through that day. How different does the game look if Gypyx is still alive going into D3? That, in of itself, means that there's still two scum alive minimum going into N3 (possibly 3, depending on if the guilty manifested or not since the guilty on Dwlee was at least in part followthrough from the Gypyx elimination), which gives them a lot more agency.

We still discover that the mage 4th tier is a reviver in night 2.

[jjh927]

Oh, and the night 2 nightkill still fails

[jjh927]

so like, if we mislimmed in d2 as well then town still comes out of it with a conftown revived LLD and only 2 town dead. 11p, 8-3, reviver now public knowledge

[jjh927]

I don't know about you, but I balance games such that either side could still win no matter who gets elimed on day 1. It can have a notable effect, but it shouldn't be total doom. If scum get elimed on day 1 in this setup, they will pretty much always lose. Especially if its their strongman because then they might literally never make a nightkill, as opposed to once or twice.

2.5 is the exp total you have stated for one scum player doing literally everything right. That is barely over halfway to 4. "Most of the way" is a bit of a stretch

[jjh927]

Sidenote that the main reason we didn't hit scum day 1 was Titus somehow believing Gypyx could become a masoniser when she had like all the reasons in the world to realise that was impossible

I've found I can pretty reliably find scum in day 1 since I realised you don't need to go for the big fish. Might be interesting to look at my recent stats there but it'd probably end up being biased nonsense

[jjh927]

Guessing there wasn't a dead PT given the resurrection mechanics