Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[MalcolmTucker]

Fundamentally, Kitty, what I suppose I'm asking here is...do you acknowledge a good mafia player could've used the contradictions in Scorpious' play, including the illogical push on Koopa after they claimed, to appear like a vigilant townie making a sensible elimination while knowing themselves Scorpious was not mafia? If so, it's somewhat likely mafia was on the bandwagon beyond Andres.

You seem to be taking issue with the fact Scorpious' town play was terrible but you're sort of missing the point I'm making here...ultimately we know Scorpious was town now, and as a result we know this is something mafia likely exploited when the opportunity was there to do so.

Also - what do you think of Math?

[MalcolmTucker]

Even your push on Mala feels similar. There were some holes in Mala's early play. Mafia can exploit this for a read that seems genuine even though they know it isn't.

This is the core for why I think HEM is suspicious

Indeed, my main contention is whether HEM/Kitty can be teammates at this point. Early game I think it works absolutely fine - Kitty didn't really have much of an opinion on HEM and HEM himself was pushing elsewhere. Since then they've been a bit more confrontational but not beyond it being for show I suppose.

[MalcolmTucker]

Math - what do you think of Kitty? Likely to be mafia or no?

[MalcolmTucker]

Re your points in 3220 Kitty - I get that Scorpious/Jackson going for Koopa may have seemed weird but it'd have so illogical and baffling for two mafia to both go on the same role-claimed player bandwagon. It was clearly never going to pick up and I'm struggling to believe you wouldn't have been able to see that at all.

My general point is here that you pushed Scorpious in particular without ever considering whether their play was too illogical or lazy for a clever mafia player trying to get of trouble. If Scorpious is mafia then fine, but the fact they were town clearly indicates you here to an extent - I ultimately don't know your alignment and to me it looks like you strongly pushed two townies because you spotted some holes in their play and saw it as a convenient thing to do.

I also think it's quite possible you/Math could be a team if HEM doesn't come back as mafia. You're defending Math and Math is very hedgy on you in 3222 as well.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm sorry Italiano but you shouldn't have pushed NK15 after the claim. That's just sus amogus.

Well I still think there's at least one scum between HEM and Mala.

Once again I outlined during D3 why a vote on Italiano didn't make sense. You continue to take the lowest hanging fruit and use that to justify your vote but this is the second time it's seen you eliminate a townie. I think you're obvious mafia at this point.

VOTE: KittyTacky

[MalcolmTucker]

For me the team is now Kitty-HEM, with Math potentially as backup choice but I may have been reaching there on D3 with my reads. HEM was essentially able to ride out that turn but basically just came back without reading the game again to eliminate another townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

I outlined pretty clearly on D3 why Italiano was probably not mafia - on D1 it would have been perfectly reasonable for them to go onto the Scorpious wagon but they didn't do so because they clearly saw no benefit in it. Instead they stayed on an unhelpful wagon in the same way town Scorpious did. Some people were saying we should ignore D1 wagon because the info could be construed either but it's pretty clear in retrospect that it was a somewhat useful turn: we should absolutely be looking at the players here who have continually eliminated townies, and who have also been content to ignore all the tells and signals indicating said players were town because they regarded it as a very easy mafia push.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Malcolm

What makes you look at the voting patterns so far and make you think I am mafia? Why do I sit off both the Scorpious and Italiano wagon, making a strong defence for both? I was defending Jackson as town from as soon as they made their claim because it should have been pretty obvious in retrospect that they were town. If you are town you should be looking at Kitty or HEM here, unless you have an alternative idea at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Probably best for me to role reveal with two votes on me - I'm Town Simple Jailkeeper. Will be eliminated tonight given that I imagine but we can at least focus in on where scum is likely to be.

[MalcolmTucker]

HEM was essentially able to ride out that turn but basically just came back without reading the game again to eliminate another townie.

blatant misrep

That's twice you've hammered vanilla townies now. You saved your skin by saying you needed more time then just came back in and voted out the most popular choice, someone who'd stayed off the D1 wagon when it would have been convenient for them to join it.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't know how anyone can look at the voting patterns so far and I think I am anything resembling mafia, HEM essentially forcing the role reveal there is suspect.

[MalcolmTucker]

HEM essentially forcing the role reveal there is suspect

lol i didnt make you do anything you claimed jailkeeper yourself

We're down to seven players which basically put me at E-2. If mafia want to force it through that could have left me at E-1 very quickly. You would have known this when voting for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

show us your results

I tried Kitty D1 and D2 but nothing. In retrospect I imagine someone else perhaps took on the kill, I'd just reckoned at the time Kitty may have been more likely to carry it out than someone like yourself for example.

I tried Math D3 out of interest but nothing there either. Should have probably gone for you in retrospect but ah well, happy with eliminating either you or Kitty this turn at the moment unless I can somehow be convinced of an alternative wagon on someone who's received less attention.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ah then you admit I'm not mafia

I'm not admitting that at all?

[MalcolmTucker]

Results please

A simple jailkeeper in a world where a gunsmith and tracker already exists and then claiming preemptively with a dash of shade. nope not suspicious at all.

'
We've had multiple preemptive claims this game. A claim when I'm on E-2 is not preemptive. I'll be busy at points today, how am I meant to guarantee I'm not automatically eliminated without a chance to claim or assert my case?

[MalcolmTucker]

If in your imagined world, two mafia could have quickhammered you so you claimed... then what does that say about me.

I said mafia could have left me at E-1. I'm currently on E-2. It's pretty clear there I'm identifying you could be mafia who's already on me.

[MalcolmTucker]

unless I can somehow be convinced of an alternative wagon on someone who's received less attention.

hahaha scuuuum

There's probably no point in interacting with you going forward for you because you're clearly either scum trying to manipulate the game or there's a slim chance of you being town not bothering to read.

To others - eliminate HEM/Kitty. One of them will surely be scum at this point. HEM has no actual scum-case on me here. I've no defended two vanilla townie bandwagons. I defended Jackson when they claime and pointed out I thought they were pretty much locktown beforehand. Italiano also thought I was town and said so. HEM has no hammered two townies and has prompted another claim from town here.

[MalcolmTucker]

My top suspects are you/Kitty yes. Kitty in retrospect is unlikely to have carried out the kill.

[MalcolmTucker]

has prompted another claim from town here.

what a frame

You left me at E-2. When do you think I should have claimed? E-1 would have been risky if final mafia was not yet on the wagon.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think you assuming that just because you are a gunsmith means that a traitor is more likely. Because it is not, what's more likely is it's used as a cop that can RP nwot a ytliug-eslaf role or a Mafia doctor exists, or have it purely as a way to not have super obvious checks similar to how Cop would in a normal. I do not see how you've come to the conclusion of no traitors existing.

I also feel like this is quite a townie post from Jackson here. Presuming Koopa is town if they are making incorrect assumptions about the gamestate mafia has no reason to correct them and inform us to a greater extent that this may be incorrect. Also - while it's not impossible, I'm not sure mafia are as likely to casually speculate in this thread on what roles will be in the game when they have more info than the rest of us.

JV pointed out Koopa may be wrong re how they perceive the role alignments available in the game, I don't think mafia does that and it gives him some town points from me. If Koopa is wrong on this, why correct them? If they're right, seems risky to try a misdirect for available roles in the game.

Jackson's claim seems reasonable, insisted this morning their post about Koopa potentially reading the roles then was very townie and incredibly unlikely to come from mafia given the circumstances. Will read back for reactions to see how that was pushed in a while.

Since towntells were mentioned, here I am pointing out on D1 that Jackson's claim was likely townie on the basis that they had pointed out incorrect assumptions being made by Koopa. There isn't much need for mafia to do this - it would have been beneficial for mafia to let doubt fester about Jackson's role in the game. But because I'm town, and because I thought Jackson's claim was fundamentally town, I pointed that out.

[MalcolmTucker]

The presumption on me being mafia here is essentially based on the idea that I've spent all game literally doing things that are the antithesis of being beneficial to the mafia because it makes me look more like a townie. I get that can be a helpful approach for a while but it only tends to work for so long. And when there are other roles in the game that can potentially reveal your identity anyway it would have been possible for all my work to be undone anyway if I'd been mafia playing that way. It doesn't make sense.

I know wagons alone do not tell a player's allegiance but fundamentally it is quite remarkable I'm currently under more suspicion than HEM who has now twice hammered townies and Kitty who continually and almost exclusively pushed players who turned out to be town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also - as to why I revealed my role, I was on E-2 and knew I was going to be inactive for a good 5/6 hours today because I was busy. I've seen wagons pushed through before more quickly than expected and I was wary that could potentially happen here when it's almost certain there will be two scum on said wagon because this is their best chance to get it down to 3v2.

It's also D3 now and we're getting towards the endgame - my perspective here is that we need to know as many townies as possible in order to try and win the game, and it's better you now know my role.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also - without wanting to make myself sound like an idiot, I'm not necessarily that good at this game and wouldn't really feel confident claiming a role so early on if I did not have one - I am inherently a very risk-averse player and would almost inevitably not pursue such a gambit until I was on the verge of going out. If I'm mafia I would still have a teammate who based on gameplay would still have a chance of winning; if I'm lying, you can see there's nobody blatantly pushing me here who is likely to be my teammate as some sort of bold attempt at a feint.

Even my checks are inherently honest when you think about it given my suspicions and reads so far. I continue to suspect Kitty given my reads on them so far that they are scum and did not make the kills; why would I admit that I jailed Kitty TWICE without success if I was scum wanting to paint them as being likely mafia? It wouldn't make any sense.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Malcolm

What makes you look at the voting patterns so far and make you think I am mafia? Why do I sit off both the Scorpious and Italiano wagon, making a strong defence for both? I was defending Jackson as town from as soon as they made their claim because it should have been pretty obvious in retrospect that they were town. If you are town you should be looking at Kitty or HEM here, unless you have an alternative idea at all.

Because I think you're a deep wolf. Your play is way too squeaky clean to still be alive. Sitting off both mis-elim wagons and claiming to have defended them doesn't mean much if they still get voted out, it just means you don't take any blame for the wagon. And honestly I don't think it makes any sense from a town perspective to confidently town read either of them, there were plenty of reasons to doubt that they'd flip green. And besides that, town casing someone and putting actual effort into trying to stop a mis-elim are two completely different things. You did the former but I don't remember you actively trying to stop people from voting out your town reads.

Additionally, why would scum kill JV? I town read him too, but he offered anti-town utility with his role and had a generally abrasive tone/attitude that made people want to vote him.

The NK just seems like a basic "kill the PRs" NK, but he wasn't confirmed and he didn't have any actual power. And the scum team clearly believed we had an actual Vig (hence why Andres tried to claim Vig instead of Doc), so why didn't they go PR hunting or at least try to kill consensus town reads?

Also, if you think the voting patterns are alignment indicative, then why aren't you suspicious of Gamma? He was also on both mis-elim wagons.

Also - on this, I think scum killing Jackson was perfectly sensible, Jackson had claimed a role and was TR'd following that by a number of us. I'd have absolutely refused to go there. This just feels like too complex a theory and gives me far too much credit as a player. It's just so, so much more sensible to look at players who keep hammering or eliminating townies here.

I'm always wary of relying too much on meta, but take a look at my record - in the first game I played scum on here I lasted about a day before accidentally posting a message intended for my scum PT in the wrong thread, effectively outing me and seeing me eliminated right away. Even if I were scum here I would not continually be doing things working against the advantage of scum like defending townies such as Scorpious and Italiano who were perfectly viable eliminations. It's hardly as if getting rid of either of them seems to have harmed Kitty or HEM here, is it?

[MalcolmTucker]

Me + JV would have possibly been a shit fight for pages. I don’t think scum kill a backup vigilante here especially if Roden’s theory of a rolecop is true.

I can’t wrap my head around Malcolm possibly being town here.

Again this feels very much like overthinking, scum probably killed Jackson because Jackson has a role, it's likely that simple.

[MalcolmTucker]

based on?

I got bad vibes from your earlier play and also I didn't like your reaction to JV's push. Not much to go off of but I don't scumread many people.

I'm sorry Italiano but you shouldn't have pushed NK15 after the claim. That's just sus amogus.

Well I still think there's at least one scum between HEM and Mala.

Once again I outlined during D3 why a vote on Italiano didn't make sense. You continue to take the lowest hanging fruit and use that to justify your vote but this is the second time it's seen you eliminate a townie. I think you're obvious mafia at this point.

VOTE: KittyTacky

Your reasoning made no sense. He was scummy, people agreed he was scummy, just because he was town doesn't make me mafia, because town is uninformed. I am not to blame for other townies' poor play getting them hanged.

Once again you continue to entirely ignore my line of argument here. I understand uninformed town make mistakes. I do so myself and did so in this game when I initially suspected NK15. My issue here is that you have continually used any example of poor townplay to jump on whoever is convenient because it's a useful way for mafia to look like town while still being able to eliminate a townie easily. That's why I suspect you and why I think you're mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm neutral on Malcolm, I'm not sure about the JK claim, there's a good amount of town power already flipped. I entertain the idea that he is simply wrong town.

He is in my lim pool but I am not jumping the gun with my vote so early into the day.

This also feels like some classic hedging as well. If Kitty is mafia they know my elimination is good for them but they don't want to seem as eager as other townies perhaps willing to eliminate me, because doing so would effectively out them as scum for the next turn.

I've thought HEM was mafia for most of the game, but now I've calmed down from that crappy exchange earlier a bit I'd still be willing to entertain the possibility of a Kitty/Math team here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Only issue with a Kitty/Math team would be they'd have to have been incredibly lucky with their kill choices to avoid being jailed.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kitty/Gamma seems unlikely, I remember Flavor being fairly keen on Kitty on D1 when they didn't need to be since Kitty hadn't come under much pressure at that point.

[MalcolmTucker]

Math - what do you think of Kitty? Likely to be mafia or no?

I think with HEM yes, with Italiano no.

I work by teams right now.

For example I see you and a JV team and I don’t like how JV is sidelining this. I’d like if JV asked more questions.

I think HEM and Italiano or HEM and Kitty are most likely

But I can’t shake the deep wolf vibe I feel and I don’t know if either qualifies or I am just paranoid.

Math - where are you on this? You stated you thought HEM/Kitty was a possibility if Italiano was not scum. JV, your other suspect, is now gone, and HEM/Kitty have been caught sitting on yet another town bandwagon with HEM hammering for the second time. Does HEM/Kitty not look more viable to you in that regard?

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

Whether this was for show or not depends on people’s perception. Me saying it wasn’t means absolutely nothing if people already see me as scum because it’s only fmpov. But for you to bring this up makes me feel even stronger about you as town, unless you are white knighting me which isn’t impossible, but this is a good point to bring up.

Here is Italiano - a confirmed townie - TR'ing me for my read of them. They are aware this could be mafia trying to buy credibility, but point out there was generally little self-gain in it for me as well - it was a genuine read on my part because I consistently said the Scorpious wagon was worth looking at.

[MalcolmTucker]

No crumbs, MT?

No, I didn't leave any because frankly I'm not good enough or subtle enough to do so without leaving myself completely open and exposed for elimination. I'd personally say my biggest towntell this game has perhaps being playing in a way that's a bit more confident and open in terms of my accusations and reads (despite still being cautious at times) because I was aware I'd be able to claim if needed and avoid being mislimmed daytime in a way that would be damaging to town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Apologise if a lot of my above posts read like a big long and incoherent rant but I think it's important town go back and read through my ISO and that of the players who are accusing me/who I'm accusing here. Ultimately:

- I TR'd Jackson before their claim
- I pointed out Scorpious' play wasn't conductive to mafia
- I made a strong case for why Italiano was town
- HEM has now opportunistically hammered two townies
- Kitty has consistently SR'd townies while ignoring reasons they were town
- I am frankly not good enough to fakeclaim in this situation
- I am not good enough to deep wolf here and continually stay of town bandwagons to clear myself

[MalcolmTucker]

Also, the argument I've been deep wolfing by TR'ing eliminated townies such as Scorpious and Italiano also doesn't work for a couple more reasons.

My stances were consistent on both players. I expressed some suspicion on Italiano but then very much TR'd them after an ISO check. It's not like I had to do a major reversal of my previous stance. Same for Scorpious: I quizzed them on contradictions in their posts but identified that their playstyle was fundamentally town.

It's not as if either of the two were preordained eliminations either. I've suspected HEM and Kitty who have also been prime suspects. I have voted for both at various points. I've also expressed suspicion in Math. Some of them are necessarily town irrespective of my alignment. Roden's argument I am deep wolfing is predicated on the idea I have been incredibly, incredibly lucky (or unlucky, I guess) with my town townreads constantly being eliminated at the expense of townies I've suspected.

And to add to that - we know Andre was scum and that Andre was incredibly inactive. One scum can sit back and play a deep wolf/town style to a greater degree but I'm not sure this is recommended when one player is inactive - at some point scum ideally need to assert some control of the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm finding it hard to believe your claim. You have also sat on my slot for all of the game. Do you understand how hard it is for me to see you as town here?

I'll ISO you later.

My read on you has been incredibly consistent though. I TR'd Flavor D1 and thought your read on them and eventual pullback looked really bad. You've now hammered two townies, who I personally - as town - thought were blatant town once they were cased properly. From that POV, can you not see why I scumread you as well? Honestly, I really strongly SR you and Kitty, but I'm still unsure if you can both be teammates, partially because I doubt I have the game entirely solved, but I'm unsure if Math works either, from that POV I'm trying to piece together the missing link, but if you are genuinely town I'm willing to work with you here to solve and I ask that you look at my case properly and give it full consideration.

[MalcolmTucker]

HEM has now opportunistically hammered two townies

You keep painting it like that. Both slots I scumread, and both slots were wagons town wanted. Not hammering Italiano there would have likely lead the town towards my wagon. Would you say JV was scum for being in the same wagons as I am? Do you not think I'm good enough to distance from these town flips if I'm scum?

Possibly, but if you're scum and you're confident you and flip me here, and if you have a partner who has stayed more concealed, I don't think it's beyond scum to go all-out here and try to force it down to a 3v2, which likely ends up being a 2v1 I'd imagine presuming scum is nailed next turn. It's not as if you couldn't have tried to talk your way out of being voted out, you seemed like the prime lim at the start of D3 but managed to avoid it.

Again, look at my perspective on this being town - I know that if I am eliminated it is down to 3v2 and that scum will have managed to manipulate the elimination of a claimed role player, which at this stage is quite fucking impressive even if it's immensely, immensely frustrating for me all the same. When I know that's what is happening here I am clearly aware scum are playing a bold and attacking game to try and force a win quickly.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think you're likely to be today's elim, so I'll just work with you as if you're town mmkay but you have to assume I'm town here otherwise it doesn't work

talk to me about Kitty and Math

I'll go with Kitty first. My case on Kitty - as it has been from the start - is that they have consistently had very similar scum reads on townies in a way that is incredibly convenient in helping them to look like town. If scum, they have consistently been looking for whenever a townie does something contradictory or illogical and used that as an immediate reason to push them.

For example, they voted Scorpious on D1 and suspected them for staying on Koopa after they claimed a role. I pointed out this was an illogical move from Scorpious and more likely to have come from town who just didn't like Koopa's style and wasn't trying too hard. But I get it - this thing happens and it's possible to have incorrect reads every so often.

But they then did the exact same thing with Italiano - and after N3 ended immediately justified their incorrect read again by pointing out that Italiano had sat on NK15 after they claimed. But this - again - ignores the point that'd been made that scum wouldn't want to sit on role claimed players without a solid case against said claim. Their logic was again the exact same here despite the fact I'd pointed out this was in my opinion more likely to come from lazy/uninformed town than scum.

I jailed Kitty D1/D2 but in retrospect I think it's likely they passed the kill over onto someone else. Which is the main thing making me doubt you, or that Math is the definite partner here, given I jailed Math N3, because in such a situation Kitty has been perhaps passing the kill over to someone else who's been less suspected in terms of reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again, look at my perspective on this being town - I know that if I am eliminated it is down to 3v2 and that scum will have managed to manipulate the elimination of a claimed role player, which at this stage is quite fucking impressive even if it's immensely, immensely frustrating for me all the same. When I know that's what is happening here I am clearly aware scum are playing a bold and attacking game to try and force a win quickly.

See I think this here is a narrative you would have come up with to avoid an elim if you're scum here — that's why you claimed simple jailkeeper.

while we're on the topic, tell me how your role fits in with the flips

Honestly? I don't know. I didn't write the rules for this game; I have no idea how it's all been configured. All I ultimately know is what was given in my role PM when I started playing. I genuinely don't have that much knowledge of the role (not something that was used playing in-person) and so wouldn't have the confidence to claim it as scum without my case falling apart completely.

[MalcolmTucker]

at some point scum ideally need to assert some control of the game

who has control of the game?

Currently from my POV scum have control of the game - if I am eliminated it will be 3v2 with another role player gone.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think you're likely to be today's elim, so I'll just work with you as if you're town mmkay but you have to assume I'm town here otherwise it doesn't work

talk to me about Kitty and Math

I'll go with Kitty first. My case on Kitty - as it has been from the start - is that they have consistently had very similar scum reads on townies in a way that is incredibly convenient in helping them to look like town. If scum, they have consistently been looking for whenever a townie does something contradictory or illogical and used that as an immediate reason to push them.

For example, they voted Scorpious on D1 and suspected them for staying on Koopa after they claimed a role. I pointed out this was an illogical move from Scorpious and more likely to have come from town who just didn't like Koopa's style and wasn't trying too hard. But I get it - this thing happens and it's possible to have incorrect reads every so often.

But they then did the exact same thing with Italiano - and after N3 ended immediately justified their incorrect read again by pointing out that Italiano had sat on NK15 after they claimed. But this - again - ignores the point that'd been made that scum wouldn't want to sit on role claimed players without a solid case against said claim. Their logic was again the exact same here despite the fact I'd pointed out this was in my opinion more likely to come from lazy/uninformed town than scum.

I jailed Kitty D1/D2 but in retrospect I think it's likely they passed the kill over onto someone else. Which is the main thing making me doubt you, or that Math is the definite partner here, given I jailed Math N3, because in such a situation Kitty has been perhaps passing the kill over to someone else who's been less suspected in terms of reads.

Kitty could be scum PR who wouldn't have been affected by your jailing

Possibly yes, again I'm not too certain on the mechanics of certain roles because I'm relatively inexperienced and obviously don't know what mafia has to work with.

[MalcolmTucker]

Although you've just made a perfect point for me being town here - if I was making a proper false claim here I'd likely assert myself Kitty was potentially a PR mafia player which would justify nothing working on them. I've not done that because it's genuinely not something I thought of or considered at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

yes, but WHO? who is the scum who has control of the game?

At this point, I would likely say some combination of Kitty, yourself, Math or Roden at an outside shot because I really don't like their reasoning for voting me. Personally I think at least one scum will be hanging back on me so as to not seem too obvious and eager to eliminate me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kitty does not control the game
Math does not control the game

and in the topic, I do not control the game

so a scum taking control of the game does not match with your suspects if that's your idea

No one player controls the game, but I'd argue those voting for or planning to do so have more control than those who don't - they are roughly in the majority and the idea to lim me has obviously gained some traction.

[MalcolmTucker]

what's sus is that you would have thought about that. you are obviously intelligent, i don't know where this downplaying came from.

I think I'm relatively perceptive in general but remember I am relatively inexperienced at playing mafia on the whole, especially on this site where I have less than 10 games, I'm not particularly bold insofar as making false claims or huge risky gambits is concerned.

[MalcolmTucker]

What I will say is your willingness to engage is making you look better to me than before here. Although I'm aware this could be you trying to appear more reasonable to town if you're mafia and I do go out so it can look like an honest error instead of scum forcing a role player out.

[MalcolmTucker]

you would have understood what simple meant
you would have understood what a jailkeeper does
like you said it would have been in your role PM

i'm struggling to see how you can be fit in here unless you're really just functionally a doctor and all of the scum is a PR. but we already know andres is a goon.

It makes sense reading it now but genuinely when making my choices I was forgetting mafia would potentially have their own roles which could block out mine.

[MalcolmTucker]

if it's true then Kitty and Math could be both scum PR and your clears on them would be entirely useless

Funny if my gut read on them possibly being teammates is correct here and I've forgotten my role wouldn't allow me to find that out.

[MalcolmTucker]

It's also worth noting that there is very little to rule out Kitty/Math as a team here beyond my results, which as you say may functionally be completely useless. I could be getting it the wrong way round here, but I believe Kitty strongly defended Math while Math has been hedgy on Kitty and certainly hasn't been accusing them a lot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Need to get some sleep but will continue this tomorrow.

[MalcolmTucker]

Just because someone claimed a role doesn't mean they are a worthy kill.

God if I get eliminated this is going to look so scummy, especially since Kitty had been reluctant to put their vote on me initially so they could see which way the winds blew.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kitty all game has been voting for anyone who does anything remotely anti-town, yet is now boasting about voting for someone who is going to come back as a PR. Amazing how it's suddenly fine for them to doubt PR claims when it suits them.

[MalcolmTucker]

The presumption on me being mafia here is essentially based on the idea that I've spent all game literally doing things that are the antithesis of being beneficial to the mafia because it makes me look more like a townie. I get that can be a helpful approach for a while but it only tends to work for so long. And when there are other roles in the game that can potentially reveal your identity anyway it would have been possible for all my work to be undone anyway if I'd been mafia playing that way. It doesn't make sense.

I know wagons alone do not tell a player's allegiance but fundamentally it is quite remarkable I'm currently under more suspicion than HEM who has now twice hammered townies and Kitty who continually and almost exclusively pushed players who turned out to be town.

?? That may be someone else’s point but that’s not mine.

Mine is that your PR play and day play makes you very likely scum.

I for the life of me, cannot figure out why you Jailkeep Kitty twice. It just seems like a fake claim but you don’t want to give clears.

Brb dinner

I have cleared all this up. I've never played the role before, I wasn't sure how to approach it. D1 I had mild suspicions on Kitty and felt like they may be the more hidden mafia using the kill. D2 I decided to stay on them as I was becoming more confident. D3 I tried you to switch it up a bit. If I wanted to lie about clears I'd surely throw more names in there?

[MalcolmTucker]

But this - again - ignores the point that'd been made that scum wouldn't want to sit on role claimed players without a solid case against said claim. Their logic was again the exact same here despite the fact I'd pointed out this was in my opinion more likely to come from lazy/uninformed town than scum.

You seem to assume that scum would play flawlessly and perfectly logically. Why?! That's a huge assumption to make.

They don't play perfectly, but they also don't just casually reveal themselves and consistently doing nothing but voting for play that seems anti-town is not always a good idea. I have explained this so many times now...you voted and justified your vote on Italiano for identical reasons to your vote on Scorpious but it was wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, been doing some digging, and while I've TR'd Roden for most of the game I think there's a very real possibility Roden could be partners with Kitty. Here's my case.

For what's gotten me onto Roden - I understand players doubt my claim for a variety of reasons but I keep coming back to 3390 because it is genuinely a ridiculous reasoning for why they think I am mafia.

Roden's assertion here is that essentially I have been deep wolfing by repeatedly clearing townies such as Scorpious and Italiano who were voted out to make myself look more townie.

But the problem here is that this only works on a logic where I can know in advance who is going to be eliminated and pick my TR's from there. I have suspected Kitty and HEM for most of the game. That's not a secret. HEM especially has been a prime candidate for elimination at certain points in the game. Knowing that, how does it just happen to be the case that I've conveniently only ended up backing townies who were later eliminated? Scum have to push someone - and if I'm mafia, it's not as if I've strayed away from going all-in on players who - in this hypothetical scenario - would come back town if eliminated. My play is described as "squeaky clean" but remember I heavily pushed NK15 early on and probably to some degree influenced their eventual role reveal. That's hardly "squeaky clean".

But I feel like the case for them being teammates gets stronger when you start to take a look through Kitty's ISO for interactions between the two of them. There's really not all that much here and it convincingly reads like two scum teammates wary to interact with each other.

Kitty in 1085 says it "doesn't feel right" that Roden could end up being mafia but doesn't elaborate much further than this. Note that for most of the game Kitty has employed a more evidence-based style where they used gameplay to case and help eliminate Scorpious and Italiano - things that seemed anti-townie had to come from scum so were worth a vote. But here Roden is worthy of a cautious town gut-read. If Kitty is scum, they don't go in too hard on this though because Flavor was keen on Roden at the time for a possible elimination.

In 985 before this Roden showed up to argue against a Kitty wagon by trying to direct players back onto the Mala wagon which had never really worked out all that well. Note Roden doesn't argue against the wagon itself and doesn't inherently say it's bad - they just find a reason to deflect away from it.

In 1165 Kitty makes a readslist which places Kitty in their null/neutral category despite previouslt saying they were unlikely to be mafia. Why is Roden null here? Kitty has clearly expressed a preference. Andre is, of course, also null, but this feels quite NAI given their inactivity. Notably, as I've mentioned before, Kitty's three scumreads here are all now confirmed town and were all suspected by Kitty for the same, identical and flawed reasoning to try and appear more townie.

By 2192 Kitty again says Roden is not "particularly scummy" - another hedgy read that's hardly a ringing endorsement but very much leaves scope for either a proper defence or bus if needed.

Note that in 3395 Kitty was "neutral" on me despite the eventual vote then later coming in. Roden voted for me at the start of D3 but then took away their vote for a bit. This indicates to me they were both hedging their bets a bit here in case the town either completely believed my case, or if they were wary they'd look too eager by immediately voting for me given they know I am town.

[MalcolmTucker]

thinking about it, there's no real value in flipping Malcolm today because if we give him another night, either mafia confirms it for us, or we potentially get a block (if mafia aren't prs)

VOTE: Malakittens

I am kinda thinking HEM/Malcolm.

Scum seem to be desperate here

HEM is throwing on the wall practically anything that sticks.

Malcolm votes Kitty despite pushing HEM repeatedly.

Yeah this is so nonsensical I'm inclined to think you're maybe just being lazy town here. I've been pushing for HEM as one of my main scum targets since D1 and HEM came out all guns blazing for me at the start of the turn. The fact our reads are slightly progressing is a good thing albeit I obviously remain wary of HEM.

[MalcolmTucker]

I literally told you why I unvoted but ok

Do you think there's pocketing going on in any direction between me and HEM?

Notably you ignored the vast majority of my post, particularly the hedgy interactions between you and Kitty throughout the game.

You also failed to explain why I would be deep wolfing here considering it would require some pretty big coincidences given - by your own logic - I've also been pursuing several townies throughout the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

You've never shown any evidence you particularly hesitated on Roden, Kitty, beyond that one readslist where you have them as null. "Null" does not imply you're hesitating either - it implies you have no opinion on them at all. You clearly had thoughts on Roden, albeit very limited ones which would be consistent with scum partners.

[MalcolmTucker]

But this - again - ignores the point that'd been made that scum wouldn't want to sit on role claimed players without a solid case against said claim. Their logic was again the exact same here despite the fact I'd pointed out this was in my opinion more likely to come from lazy/uninformed town than scum.

You seem to assume that scum would play flawlessly and perfectly logically. Why?! That's a huge assumption to make.

They don't play perfectly, but they also don't just casually reveal themselves and consistently doing nothing but voting for play that seems anti-town is not always a good idea. I have explained this so many times now...you voted and justified your vote on Italiano for identical reasons to your vote on Scorpious but it was wrong.

By that logic, townies wouldn't sit on a PR either because that is what got both of them killed. Both sides can play extremely stupidly. And pushing me for VOTING PEOPLE FOR ANTI-TOWN PLAY is ridiculous.

Scumhunting is apparently scummy if you end up being wrong, even if the mislimmed townies' poor play is what made them look like scum in the first place. And now you're latched onto me like a bulldog for making honest mistakes. Smells like scum opportunism.

Once again you are continually, again and again, ignoring my point. I am not saying that scum never do stupid things. Sometimes they make themselves known to the town in ways that are wrong. My general point has been that scum generally want to blend in and ensure they are not immediately identified. That is the point - if they didn't attempt to do this the game would fundamentally be easy for town.

My issue with your play, from the POV of thinking you are mafia, is that you have continually identified occasional bad townplay and immediately used that to build an entire scum-case, because it allows you to eliminate town from the game and then build a convenient narrative where you were just town who was wrong, even though I was repeatedly pleading with you from D1 onwards to consider that scum don't always make themselves obvious and that sometimes a bit more thought is needed. If you are scum this approach is literally what you are doing now - you can't be mafia because you had seemingly legitimate reasons for voting out town. I am pointing out that this is your approach as mafia in my view - identify any immediate weaknesses in the town and use said weaknesses to push bad faith eliminations while refusing to search for more subtle mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

But this - again - ignores the point that'd been made that scum wouldn't want to sit on role claimed players without a solid case against said claim. Their logic was again the exact same here despite the fact I'd pointed out this was in my opinion more likely to come from lazy/uninformed town than scum.

You seem to assume that scum would play flawlessly and perfectly logically. Why?! That's a huge assumption to make.

They don't play perfectly, but they also don't just casually reveal themselves and consistently doing nothing but voting for play that seems anti-town is not always a good idea. I have explained this so many times now...you voted and justified your vote on Italiano for identical reasons to your vote on Scorpious but it was wrong.

By that logic, townies wouldn't sit on a PR either because that is what got both of them killed. Both sides can play extremely stupidly. And pushing me for VOTING PEOPLE FOR ANTI-TOWN PLAY is ridiculous.

Scumhunting is apparently scummy if you end up being wrong, even if the mislimmed townies' poor play is what made them look like scum in the first place. And now you're latched onto me like a bulldog for making honest mistakes. Smells like scum opportunism.

Once again you are continually, again and again, ignoring my point. I am not saying that scum never do stupid things. Sometimes they make themselves known to the town in ways that are wrong. My general point has been that scum generally want to blend in and ensure they are not immediately identified. That is the point - if they didn't attempt to do this the game would fundamentally be easy for town.

My issue with your play, from the POV of thinking you are mafia, is that you have continually identified occasional bad townplay and immediately used that to build an entire scum-case, because it allows you to eliminate town from the game and then build a convenient narrative where you were just town who was wrong, even though I was repeatedly pleading with you from D1 onwards to consider that scum don't always make themselves obvious and that sometimes a bit more thought is needed. If you are scum this approach is literally what you are doing now - you can't be mafia because you had seemingly legitimate reasons for voting out town. I am pointing out that this is your approach as mafia in my view - identify any immediate weaknesses in the town and use said weaknesses to push bad faith eliminations while refusing to search for more subtle mafia.

Tell me, then, how I would differentiate bad townplay from scum simply making bad plays? You're basically saying that I should have ignored obviously scummy people, because there's no way scum would be obviously scummy. Ridiculous. Just because they ended up town doesn't make me scum, because they made themselves scummy.

This is, again, completely and utterly missing my point. I am not saying you cannot ever push bad townplay. Clearly sometimes scumplay is just bad and easy to identify. My issue here is that you have almost exclusively only pushed bad townplay and refused to consider the idea that any of the scum may be well-hidden or concealed; because that would involve you having to fabricate a dishonest read which may expose you as scum. In isolation it was okay to push Scorpious, or Jackson, or Italiano individually. The fact you have solely suspected these players for what you judged to be bad townplay shows you aren't actually hunting for mafia, you are simply trying to identifying flaws in townplay because it makes you look more honest than you would otherwise.

[MalcolmTucker]

I literally told you why I unvoted but ok

Do you think there's pocketing going on in any direction between me and HEM?

Notably you ignored the vast majority of my post, particularly the hedgy interactions between you and Kitty throughout the game.

You also failed to explain why I would be deep wolfing here considering it would require some pretty big coincidences given - by your own logic - I've also been pursuing several townies throughout the game.

I ignored most of your post because you're seeing things that aren't there. I just don't agree that I've been hedging around Kitty.

I don't see how the elims have been coincidences?

It's not hard to town read townies who are under pressure and clearly have the momentum to be voted out.

But that's my point. There have been times in the game where it looked like HEM was going to be voted out. I nevertheless continued to suspect them. Kitty has not been completely immune to pressure (despite your complete lack of interest in the slot and vice versa), and yet I've pushed there too. Your presumption here depends on the false suggestion Scorpious was the obvious elimination from the start of D1. It's just completely untrue and your read on why I am supposedly deep wolfing is a complete and utter false fabrication.

[MalcolmTucker]

Incredibly - I went through some meta on Scorpious.. and I am shocked to find that their WOLFPLAY has more depth than their villager play somehow.
When comparing:
This wolf game from a game called Internal Affairs:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=26244
and this Villager game from a game called Polish Rap:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=26244

Also interesting tidbit I found in the wolf chat:
Subject: Infernal Affairs Mafia PT

Oh, yeah. You should know that.

I’ll be scum read by page 4. I just come off as scum all the time. I usually get out of it but. There will be a push on me. I’m just not that good at this, but I like the game so much.

I think FL noted that we both played a game with Scorpious a while back where they approached the game in a similar way to this as town. I'm aware Scorpious seems to roll scum a lot and I sometimes get the impression they're maybe more comfortable in that slot early game than as town - I can conceivably see D1 Scorpious just not having that many decisive thoughts or opinions at the moment and not being particularly active or concerned about the main arguments and interactions as a result.

Provided they're not teammates working together here, FL's defence of Scorpious also felt genuine and townie to me - Koopa was clearly become keen on Scorpious for a while and when FL was under some pressure I think an alternative Scorpious wagon could have potentially been quite workable to take the heat away from them a bit. Obviously that doesn't clarify Scorpious' alignment but struck me as helpful from FL - again, mafia want to keep info hidden and that was some useful clarity that's given Koopa a lot more context on Scorpious in general I'd argue.

I'm not sure mafia particularly pushes Koopa right now, it's unlikely go anywhere and isn't particularly in their interests. But I guess that could conversely be a reason for scum to give it a go...will be intrigued to see whether Scorpious/Jackson keep on it or back down.

My apologies to everyone else for the heated posts on this page - I am intensely frustrated when a player pushes bad mafia theory to push me as wolf when it is simply stuff part of my playstyle, and thus i largely have 0 argument against it.
I think Scorpious is worth an investigative check here if anything just to make sure they are not a wolf trying to hide within this ridiculous theory.

I think Scorpious' push here is pretty lazy but I'm not particularly reading them as mafia for it currently to be honest. Don't see why mafia would push you.

koopashell [2]: Scorpious [457], JacksonVirgo [820]

if there's an all town wagon on town, it's this one.

Agreed, not been keen on Scorpious continually winding up Koopa but I don't think they have much interest in D1 at the moment and they just really don't seem to like how Koopa is approaching the game. Not the best way to decide on a vote but it is what it is for now.

And on both - Koopa clearly not getting eliminated this turn given their role claim, so not a sensible place for mafia to be ditching votes for now.

What are people’s reads on Mathblade?

Didn't particularly like their admission that they'd be happy to eliminate Scorpious due to playstyle and not particularly thinking that they are mafia at all. Considering they have other suspects, felt like a way for them to potentially hedge a wagon on a townie without seeming too suspect for doing so. Also felt like Math's read on me was quite dishonest and completely distorted the truth, but aware they can sometimes quickly jump to conclusions that aren't necessarily correct while town.

For what it's worth while Scorpious is unhappy about meta-reading (and I get that) I'd probably find them a lot more suspicious if I was unaware they can play this way as town. So far their main push has been a poor push on a player who's claimed a role. I just think mafia Scorpious would be putting more thought into things here.

Here is a short sample of my early game posts where I set out quite blatantly and quite clearly that I believed Scorpious was townie on the basis of the way they were approaching the game. This is not an opportunistic TR made to look me appear townie when the wagon went through - I was consistent in this line of thinking for most of D1. There were times when I quizzed Scorpious a bit because I wasn't keen on their Koopa push but like I say, it was fundamentally just not a good way for scum to play. The idea that this is "deep wolfing" is genuinely ludicrous and incredibly silly to even consider.

[MalcolmTucker]

No once again you're completely and wilfully misreading my point. I understand players make mistakes. I do not deny that. I have made mistakes, such as pushing for NK15. My point is you have exclusively pushed what you deem to be (obvious) scum despite the fact the majority of mafia games will contain a player who tries to blend in and who avoids making mistakes. Your reads have been conducted solely to appear townie so that whenever town is eliminated you can claim you are being honest. As is the case right now. You claim it was the best approach but you refused to ever consider counterarguments made as to why Scorpious/Italiano could not be scum and only backed off JV after their role claim, something you're refusing to do here because you know it could potentially put your own place in the game at stake if the tables are turned at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Once again - for anyone reading this - I understand and accept that players make errors and mistakes. I have done this myself a lot, sometimes at the end of games leading to a scum win. I take no issue with this. I have made errors this game. My point here is that Kitty has CONTINUALLY used their incorrect reads as a shield and justification for why they must be town, which to me is inherently scummy. They have repeatedly refused to push any slots which may be more concealed mafia because it's been much easier to go for simpler slots who made obvious mistakes, without considering those errors could - as often happens - be coming from town.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm sorry Italiano but you shouldn't have pushed NK15 after the claim. That's just sus amogus.

Well I still think there's at least one scum between HEM and Mala.

Look at this post for example. The first thing Kitty said after Italiano's elimination. They were entirely concerned with ensuring their read on Italiano - despite being wrong - could appear justified to the rest of the town. Keep in mind Kitty said this and yet is now pushing for the elimination of and is sitting on a claimed roleplayer. Clearly anti-town play is fine when it's to their own self-benefit.

[MalcolmTucker]

I acknowledge your point but your post is funny because you clearly have a different definition of “roleplayer” to the rest of the world

Fair, I am crap with the terminology in this game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Comma might be recommended going forward...

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Math is seeming townie here by their willingness to sort/explore different ideas, even if they are sceptical about my status. It's still theoretically possible I guess, but I'd be very surprised if we're dealing with a Math and Mala or Gamma town and if we are, they probably deserve to win.

[MalcolmTucker]

Note Roden and Kitty are both staying firmly away from these gameplay discussions for the most part, because the current state of the game likely suits them so long as I am at risk.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm sorry Italiano but you shouldn't have pushed NK15 after the claim. That's just sus amogus.

Well I still think there's at least one scum between HEM and Mala.

I now wonder how much of this game is just the town cannibalizing each other meanwhile scum just ride out the waves trying to stoke that fire.

Yeah same, town self-destructed with that day 1 mass claim.

Roden prob town. At least one scum between Mala and Malcolm. HEM not that scummy anymore now that I look at him again.

This is pretty much the extent of Kitty's D3 play that is either not exclusively about me likely being scum, or defending themselves from my reads. Does this look like a player who is genuinely interested in the gamestate as town or who is trying to figure out my alignment genuinely?

[MalcolmTucker]

D4 play, sorry.

[MalcolmTucker]

Can somebody who's good at set up spec explain why caught scum would claim ungated Vig instead of Doc?

Somewhat unrelated, but I think with JV's flip it's pretty likely scum have a Rolecop, and that's why Andres claimed Vig. I think they checked JV on Night 1, since two other people already claimed roles and they wanted to know what he was a backup of.

Mala, can we talk? I need your perspective on something.

?

From what I understand, you town read me and scum read HEM. Do you think this is similar to Control and that I'm just pocketed here?

what do you think Roden

why dont you stop flirting with the idea of shading me and confront me directly

I'm trying to work through my paranoia after getting pocketed multiple games in a row, I want more outside takes. But also I'm trying to understand why we're not getting paired by anyone at this point. We're only getting scum read individually, but no one's coming to either of us telling us to wake the fuck up and reevaluate. The implication with solves like Roden/Kitty or HEM/Kitty is that we're pocketed in some way, but no one's outright said that.

Also I don't think Gamma or Mala are controlling the game state in any particular way. I don't think they've been active enough to do that.

yes but i'm more entertaining a gamestate where town is self-cannibalizing and scum is playing a low-key game. right now, scum's winning strategy is to secure two miselims. that's it. that's what they need to do. who do you think is inching towards that finish line?

In that case then the Day 1 suspicions towards them were right and the resistance towards their wagons came purely from town. Those same townies have suspected you/me/Kitty for most of this game. And this also has to mean Malcom is town and really is a Simple Jailkeeper, but I don't see how that fits the set up.

Ughhhhhhh I'm gonna be really annoyed if Leaf faked a meltdown and tactically replaced out

i'm 50/50 on malcolm right now because while that claim is sus, he backed down off my slot and pushed you instead and i think that's out of nowhere and unstrategic for scum to do when humaneatingmonkey is sitting right there being the #1 scapegoat.

This is actually a really good point...

Why the hell do we have a Simple Jailkeeper and two investigatives then? I mean yeah most of the PRs claimed on Day 1 but still, I don't think the mod predicted that during set up. Maybe scum have two PRs? A Rolecop and something weak to avoid the Simple check? The Lazy Tracker would help avoid swing here maybe.

What's fucking with me is that we basically get to unleash three scum-finding PRs all at once on Night 1, yet scum don't have a Roleblocker. In the hands of a less claim-happy town, I don't see how that doesn't steamroll scum.

i'm 50/50 on malcolm right now because while that claim is sus, he backed down off my slot and pushed you instead and i think that's out of nowhere and unstrategic for scum to do when humaneatingmonkey is sitting right there being the #1 scapegoat.

This is actually a really good point...

Why the hell do we have a Simple Jailkeeper and two investigatives then? I mean yeah most of the PRs claimed on Day 1 but still, I don't think the mod predicted that during set up. Maybe scum have two PRs? A Rolecop and something weak to avoid the Simple check? The Lazy Tracker would help avoid swing here maybe.

Been ruminating on this more and I can’t figure out what two PRs work.

Maybe a named scum? Is that normal?

Anything that can be tracked is left open for guilty on N1.

Bulletproof scum would work but without a vig that’s trolly on a setup already punishing to scum.

So like ??? *confusedi

When Andres claimed Vig I initially thought scum were worried about one because one of their scum buddies were Bulletproof. But yeah, with the current claims that feels a little weak for scum. But, they didn't spend N3 looking for a Vig, so I'm not sure why they fished for one instead of a Doc...

And here's the same for Roden. A bit more involved in that regard and not completely focused on getting me out. Less certain on this slot than Kitty, but reading back D3 I'm struggling to see Kitty/HEM as a team despite my longstanding suspicion of HEM.

[MalcolmTucker]

Done all I can here, happy to self-hammer if someone moves me to E-1. Kitty should go next day though since I'll come back town. Remember Kitty all game voted on the basis of perceived anti-town play and then sat on a player with a role (even if it's been an entirely ineffectual one).

[MalcolmTucker]

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

[MalcolmTucker]

There's not really any way we can go wrong here as town unless HEM were town and to gain some unique insight from rereading the whole thing. If HEM comes back town we go for Jackson next. If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

Is this a slip?

Nah that was a typo. Meant if Jackson isn't.

Where does "if Jackson isn't" fit into that post?

In case I die, please don't forget this tomorrow, because Malcolm never responded.

Also, if you think the voting patterns are alignment indicative, then why aren't you suspicious of Gamma? He was also on both mis-elim wagons.

I'd still like for Malcolm to respond to this btw.

Still waiting for Malcolm to answer this.

Quite frankly I've TR'd Gamma most of the game but I'm aware I could end up being wrong on that, as I've acknowledged in my most recent post. The difference in Gamma's slot is they (FL and Gamma) have pushed a range of different players for a variety of reasons, Kitty has exclusively focused in on what they perceive to be anti-town play to get rid of other town slots to win the game as scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Roden is transparently doing all they can here to clear Kitty, who is about to be heavily involved in a townie wagon for the third time in the game, this time for an identical reason to the exact logic they gave for their decision to eliminating Italiano still being a sensible one.

[MalcolmTucker]

@Roden if you think I'm mafia, time to vote. I'll hammer.

[MalcolmTucker]

I believe I'm on two so I'm giving you the perfect chance to get me out here. Self-hammering is not rule breaking or anything is it? Gets the turn over (we're probably not going to get much more done here) and lets you eliminate Kitty next turn to have a chance of winning the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm town but fundamentally I struggle to see where else the votes will go here. Who else are you actually considering elimination?

[MalcolmTucker]

Elimiante on wagon tomorrow on Scorpious town flip

At least I’m glad scum lost this game by shitwagoning me..

Gg

If I’m wrong about Roden then my bad, I don’t think so though. And maybe it was Leaf all along because I’m questioning Gamma’s alignment.

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Why are y'all so afraid of giving your real scum reads until moments before your death

I don't understand it

What does this even mean? I've been quite clear about my reads for the entirety of the turn. I think Kitty is mafia. I've largely believed that since D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm just making the point that I don't want to seem overly arrogant by insisting I'm absolutely right and can't be wrong, because I expect I'll have made an incorrect assumption along the way, but I have been incredibly consistent in my belief that Kitty is not town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fundamentally it's interesting here that I have been the main elimination candidate for the majority of the day but my vote count keeps hovering around two. I can only have one partner if I'm hypothetical mafia, and yet nobody is really strongly defending me either. Whatever is going on someone from mafia (I expect Kitty's partner) is wary to end this because they don't want to look suspect, and they fundamentally want town to do it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Roden, I also don't feel like you've really addressed how silly your whole deep wolfing theory on me is (the reason I've suspected you to be honest) given it's predicated on me having advanced foresight neither Kitty nor HEM would be eliminated at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also, you're arguing I don't get to just "go off and die" but what else am I expected to do here? I have outlined who I think is scum. I have given my reasoning for this and have acknowledged possible alternatives as well. I have claimed a role and yet clearly several players do not believe me. Unless you have an alternative wagon for suggestion there is nothing that is going to change here, I am going out, why are you reluctant to eliminate me now given you clearly don't believe my claim and clearly believe I am mafia? What do you want me to do here to prove that I am town?

[MalcolmTucker]

If we're thinking Mala is safe, then the game is essentially a lock, but I don't feel 100% about that, especially after what I pointed out very recently.

I agree with this thought. I am not sold on Mala town but you Me and Roden is a pretty good town block.

Mainly I think with the fact Malcolm hasn’t been turbo yeeted means Malcolm is scum or scum don’t want to elim Malcolm for some reason.

Like it’s weird.

Is there a reason you townread Malcolm Gamma?

Why would Malcolm have been turbo yeeted as town?

Malcolm would be turbo yeeted as town because my PoE is HEM/Malcolm/Kitty.
There hasn’t been a hammer and I have been the second vote for a while and no movements towards that.
So it’s more likely Malcolm is scum or scum don’t want him elimmed.

This doesn't make sense though, I only have one partner. I am currently saying I will self-hammer when the third vote comes in if that is not considered game-breaking.

[MalcolmTucker]

Roden is transparently doing all they can here to clear Kitty, who is about to be heavily involved in a townie wagon for the third time in the game, this time for an identical reason to the exact logic they gave for their decision to eliminating Italiano still being a sensible one.

Are you talking about this post?

I feel like Kitty has been getting heat all game, but it never really seemed like they were in danger of getting eliminated.

Because this is me openly wondering why Kitty doesn't ever have the momentum to get wagon'd. I actually don't understand why they haven't been in any real danger this game. I went back and dug through Koopa's ISO since I remember they had a lot to say about Kitty, and though they went back and forth on their read before ending up with a town read there, when they did suspect Kitty there still wasn't much momentum there.

If you think Kitty is scum then why has there been so little pressure there overall? If I'm partnered with Kitty then why isn't anyone else seeing it? Do you think I'm just easily snowing HEM Math Gamma and Mala?

Because they are playing a clever scum game. They have largely stayed away from big central arguments like Flavor-Koopa on D1, floating in and out of the game with enough reads to be active but nothing controversial or against the grain which has brought them to prominent attention.

But this argument doesn't make sense as Kitty town anyway given I know I am town. Other than HEM, who really has been under sustained pressure that's still in the game, beyond Mala on D1? And that faded quickly and didn't come back. In recent turns it's nobody because frankly some of the wagons have been lazy. Is your argument here that someone inherently isn't mafia if they get to this point in the game without risk of elimination?

[MalcolmTucker]

You are, of course, able to put Kitty under pressure yourself Roden, but you haven't done so all game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fundamentally I think one of our big problems here is most of D1 was taken up by an argument between two players, and D2 was then over instantly. Some players (I can include myself up until D4) have been able to largely coast through to a degree without all that much consistent suspicion. The only lengthy day where the wagon was consistently uncertain was probably D1, even on D3 players eventually settled on Italiano quite quickly.

[MalcolmTucker]

Elimiante on wagon tomorrow on Scorpious town flip

At least I’m glad scum lost this game by shitwagoning me..

Gg

If I’m wrong about Roden then my bad, I don’t think so though. And maybe it was Leaf all along because I’m questioning Gamma’s alignment.

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Why are y'all so afraid of giving your real scum reads until moments before your death

I don't understand it

What does this even mean? I've been quite clear about my reads for the entirety of the turn. I think Kitty is mafia. I've largely believed that since D1.

I'm just making the point that I don't want to seem overly arrogant by insisting I'm absolutely right and can't be wrong, because I expect I'll have made an incorrect assumption along the way, but I have been incredibly consistent in my belief that Kitty is not town.

Because if you're town, you're following the same pattern as the other mis-elims where you have a spicy scum read that you didn't feel confident in saying until the end where you won't have to back it up after you die.

Why do you think it could be Mala and/or Gamma? What struck you that would make you think if you're wrong about Kitty, it has to be them?

You're misunderstanding me, I don't think it is Mala or Gamma and have TR'd both slots for most of the game, I'm just acknowledging that I could be wrong in the sense that players constantly get things wrong in this game. I mentioned those two specifically because they're the only two slots here I have consistently TR'd and my reads are often far from perfect. I don't scum read either of them, I'm just aware there's technically nothing stopping them eventually being scum if I am wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd rather vote Malcolm, yes. I don't see much resistance to his elim though, which means if he's scum then he's getting bussed.

I think...maybe he's a Mafia Doctor, and that's why scum didn't fish there. So that he could claim a protective role later if necessary. It would also imply to the scum team that town have a Vig, so it would give multiple reasons for them to Vig hunt early on. It would also escape a guilty from the Gunsmith.

I thought about this but then there’s a few problems:

1) Doctor gets guiltied by the tracker.
2) Doctor who never saves a kill and never dies ends up being policy at some point.

So then the one PR would be a doctor and doesn’t help find the PRs claimed either.

Fundamentally this all doesn't work for a simple reason - I am town with the role I have claimed. Beyond my claim, what is the actual scum case against me? That I correctly guessed two townies weren't scum based on consistent reads?

[MalcolmTucker]

Done all I can here, happy to self-hammer if someone moves me to E-1. Kitty should go next day though since I'll come back town. Remember Kitty all game voted on the basis of perceived anti-town play and then sat on a player with a role (even if it's been an entirely ineffectual one).

Why have you “done all you can here?”. Who do you think is scum with Kitty?

And oh yeah I pretty much yeet a doc claim because follow the cop is bad and there doesn’t seem to be a roleblocker.

I have said quite clearly - and outlined in a big, long post - why I think Kitty/Roden could be a team. I thought it might be you for a while last turn and still a bit today but my jailkeeping finds make me think you two together is unlikely. Beyond this I'm not sure what more I can be expected to provide. I have claimed. I have a role. I am saying you can eliminate me if you want because this is increasingly tiresome - I have quite frankly done much more than some other players here to present feasible scum teams or alternative mafia possibilities but Kitty is continually bad faith reading my arguments, probably because they are scum, and yet they are not being pushed for this at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fundamentally it's interesting here that I have been the main elimination candidate for the majority of the day but my vote count keeps hovering around two. I can only have one partner if I'm hypothetical mafia, and yet nobody is really strongly defending me either. Whatever is going on someone from mafia (I expect Kitty's partner) is wary to end this because they don't want to look suspect, and they fundamentally want town to do it.

I'm seeing this too. That's why I don't want to end the Day yet.

I don't think scum are wary to vote you though. Game state doesn't suggest anyone who ends the day soon is definitely scum since there's a general agreement of everyone suspecting you.

Roden, I also don't feel like you've really addressed how silly your whole deep wolfing theory on me is (the reason I've suspected you to be honest) given it's predicated on me having advanced foresight neither Kitty nor HEM would be eliminated at all.

I don't think there's anything silly about it and no one else seems to agree with that either.

It's silly because it's predicated on the idea I was able to guess the eliminations in advance. Would I have been deep wolfing if HEM went out and came back town or mafia? Clearly not. Yet I'd been willing to vote for them consistently. I am town who (for once) correctly read the play of other players as town, and now that is being used as the basis for my elimination, AFTER I have claimed a role as town, that is just incredibly frustrating.

[MalcolmTucker]

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

I don’t think your plan of self hammer demonstrates anything.

If any player offered to hammer themselves was town then scum would do it.

Scum also commonly hammer themselves before a flip to cut conversation.

I have a work meeting and left off here but I don’t find it a coincidence posting sped up when I asked people to talk Malcolm.

Oh yeah I get that, I'm aware it doesn't clear me, more just me pointing out I've largely done all I can do in a sense as far as trying to clear myself goes. Need to head off but can continue any discussion in the morning if I've not been eliminated.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Mala is mostly just largely inactive for what it's worth but I could be too tunnelled here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Some people said other claims didn't make sense and yet you continually pushed them for sitting on said players who claimed.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fun game that, well-played from scum. I was somewhere along the right path but got too tunnelled on Kitty. I think I'd have pushed Math more strongly had I not got the clear on D3. HEM/Math did well to distance themselves from each other though and more importantly I think Math managed to make Kitty look like the more likely partner.

Think it was always hard early on in that obviously two mafia slots were inactive initially but the Andres elimination D2 gave us a good shot. Italiano elimination D3 was incredibly lazy for me though and probably cost us it from there.

[MalcolmTucker]

guys im an easy picking right now

understand that

analyze it

if you want some vulnerability, i'm gonna go ahead and admit that i'm not gonna jeopardize my scum w/l record by staying in a losing game if i'm mafia here (people have been suspecting me since D1, and i'm unable to give my best game because i'm swamped).

did this really break any rules? is this a real trust tell?

no i dont think so. 1.) it's not a real trust tell of mine. it's a total lie. check my games. it's never been a pattern 2.) i didn't say never/always. 3.) i did not publicly consider or publicly announce a choice to replace out.

Invoking trust tells.

Trust tells have long been a point of confusion, and for good reason - they are one of the most subtle rules we have, and if you don't understand them it's not even clear why they'd be a problem. They act as a form of OGI typically by allowing a player to assert themself as town more strongly than would normally be possible. The subtlety around trust tells comes mostly from their distinction from acceptable self-meta. Self-meta turns into a trust tell when there is an explicit or implicit statement that it would never be broken, or that it would only be broken extremely rarely. Important here, and a distinction from how we've handled things in the past, is that we are extending this to include cases where the person is not intentionally building up a trust tell, but is instead simply pointing out a pattern in their meta that they never intend to break. For example, the following may all constitute trust tells depending on context:

"I will never lie using red text."
"I have never faked a guilty as scum."
"I will always claim my real role."
"I never bus as scum."

Context is very important here. If a relatively new player says that they've never fakeclaimed before, this is not a problem - however, if a player with many dozens of completed games points out the same thing and says that they never fakeclaim as a policy, then every game where they don't lie about this policy increases the credence of their claim. After a certain point, this becomes an unfair advantage because statistically, the more times in a row someone has told the truth about something, the more likely it is that they will always tell the truth about it.

There are a variety of factors that each push something toward being an unfair trust tell: history of having followed the tell, specifically stating that the tell will never be broken in the future rather than merely stating that it's been followed up until now, an explicit advantage (such as being more plausibly town) being gained by people believing the tell, the tell being about very specific behavior, and so on. However, none of these individually are necessary for something to be a trust tell.

If you wish to refer to your own meta, as a rule of thumb, do not speak in absolutes. We obviously cannot (and do not want to) punish someone for having some of these policies (e.g., if you believe that it is never correct to bus as scum, or don't want to fake a guilty, we can't make you). In these cases, you simply cannot discuss behaviors like this in discussion of your own meta. If someone else brings up something that may qualify as a trust tell for you, you can say that you've never done the behavior in question, but you cannot say that you have a policy of never doing it. This is not a perfect solution, but we don't believe that a perfect solution exists.

i want this game to be clean so a listmod might want to rule over this one.

I admit I found this is a bit off at the time, in that it definitely made me think frustrated townie internally for a moment. I generally don't like anyone replacing out or even considering it if they're in a role they don't like or if they get a role they disapprove of, but then your suggestion seemed to be you back out as scum if you don't have a chance of victory which didn't make sense to me anyway...if scum lose and you're scum that still counts as a defeat to me unless you do it so early on there's no effect. I guess an analogy would be a goalkeeper who gets subbed off in a football game still loses when he's conceded a goal that eventually helps the other team win.

But well-played. Your willingness to work with me D4 benefited you massively I think. I had no out but you trust you at that point I think because too many townies weren't buying my claim. However would have fought you tooth and nail if you'd stayed on me fully and you'd have maybe come out looking worse for it D5. As it happened got diverted onto Kitty/Roden instead.

[MalcolmTucker]

Don't know enough on the setup, but either way I think when it gets to the point where town is eliminating claimed PRs without a counterclaim it's never going to go well for town. Scum played that turn particularly well though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Intrigued to see the mafia thread for this one to see what they were thinking.