Newbie 2096 | Nathan For You | Endgame

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, I believe you mentioned Cheap in 864, no? Whereas, in Somnus' case, despite Cheap doing the EXACT same things Bella and myself did he has been COMPLETELY OMITTED.

Why? Why is Cheap so different?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wow.

You have to go all the way back to 282 to see Spartan considering a Bella/BBT team. Not only this, he posts twice after this specifically asking if one of us could be scum pocketing the other as town.

Wow. I'm blown away.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The nonsense that I quick hammered Vasex needs to stop.

I stated intent to hammer right after Cheap voted (nothing new to learn from Cheap). Then Rad and Whiskey both popped into thread with nothing useful to contribute and then Corwin came into the thread. Including myself, that is 5 players from the player list in thread since I stated intent, which only leaves 3 people who hadn't posted. Bella, Somnus and Spartan.

I gave Vasex a chance for final reads and he wrote 'f u', what else was there to learn? It was nothing even close to a quick hammer and that narrative needs to disppear.

Meaning, so far, Somnus' case is full of shit. Spartan did question a BBT/Bella team but it was VERY early game and he showed two posts AFTER this that indicated he no longer thought that. It was nowhere near his final thoughts on the game state at end of D1.

Has accused Bella and myself of being scum because we were on 2 conf town wagons. So was Cheap... What is the difference?

And says I'm scum for quick-hammering Vasex when it was absolutely anything but a quick hammer.

I'll read and respond to the rest soon enough but this should already show that Somnus' post is just awful.

Also, the whole 'Hey you can elim me first because I'm so totally town I'd be completely OK with that' is scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Somnus acting like scum WKing isn't a thing when he was town reading Vasex. Again, scum could easily avoid that elim and then point to everyone on it about how terrible it was.

Also, 'having his pick of BOTH Corwin or Cheap' to push as a mislim on D2 would require both of them to be town and I don't believe this is the case.

I'd be interested in knowing why scum!Somnus kills BBT though, that's definitely not a thing.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wait, shit. Is it just Somnus/Corwin?

That whole thing from Somnus came after Corwin starting coming under some serious pressure. It's a bold attempt at a complete flip on the game state. You flip one of me or Bella and I believe that takes you to ELo for D3, which is obviously not good.

Wow. It's just Somnus/Corwin.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I said you can't explain your scum read and have now moved onto a second scum read (Spartan, take note of what I said earlier about scum hunting scum teams) that you likely can't explain any better.

Like, Rad is scum because BBT is scum and BBT is scum because Rad is scum, right?

Sums it all up pretty well?

Also, Somnus was pushing Rad for a long time without any basis for the read. Before switching onto me, without any basis for his read.

Also, please note Somnus' failure to explain pretty much anything which you haven't referenced at all in your read of him.

No-one is saying Somnus should be playing perfect. I'm merely saying that Town!Somnus should at the very least be able to explain his scum reads. He couldn't explain the Rad read and when pushed on it, he switched to me, again with no explanation.

Explaining fabricated reads is difficult for scum.

Secondly, his 'dat timing though' is again off the basis of Scum!Rad defending Scum!BBT which as I am sure you understand, I have a problem understanding.

Find something in Somnus' read that isn't Rad is scum because BBT is scum and vice versa.

If he has given reasons, find reasons for his scum read on me.

Oh, I see. Am I scum with Cheap, now? Doesn't matter who I'm scum with, right? Just so long as you can try to get me out of this game. Is Rad town now?

On the flip side, I felt like Somnus avoided me D1 and now is trying to pair me with anyone, just so long as he gets the wagon through on me.

Somnus has also provided very little throughout the game outside of Vasex obvtown duh, Rad scum (tunnel) BBT scum (tunnel).

I feel like some things get lost when there is a 1 to 1 conversation happening.

All of these posts are still mighty relevant. I would love to hear Somnus' explain his reasons for scum reading me outside of 'BBT is scum with x'

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ew

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Corwin, why does odd = scummy? Secondly, why are you ignoring Cheap literally block voting as well?

Why is this narrative a thing? Hey, BBT and Bella keep voting the same way. Yeah but so does Cheap. Cheap doesn't fit our narrative though so we're going to ignore that.

What???

You also just quoted 3 posts as if it were a conversation. There were almost 300 posts between the first and second post in the 'manufactured conversation'. Misrep much?

It's Corwin/Somnus. Thank you very much.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Effort =/= town

Why is it high risk? Somnus has literally tried to derail a Corwin wagon by shifting attention onto me.

Why is it legit town frustration and not legit scum frustration?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I've said a number of times I'm town reading Bella. I've even said why.

Again, it's not high risk because you're assuming upon a green flip that Somnus just gives himself up in ELo. That won't happen regardless of his alignment. If town, he throws the game. If scum, he is 1 mislim from winning. Why would he just sacrifice himself? As for him giving himself up Today? That won't happen. Perhaps in another setting outside of Newbie games, but not here and I think Somnus knows that.

All of these pre-flip associatives are awful. Genuinely, genuinely awful.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Well, that escalated quickly.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That was a fast counter wagon to the Corwin wagon, huh?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Rad, vote Corwin and make this interesting. Would you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Let's get that Corwin wagon going then.

Giving Cheap final vote may prove beneficial in the long run, too.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, I'm down to elim Bella.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What is unlikely?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because I would never pretend to know someone else's alignment as well as my own.

It's self-preservation

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Open wolfing or town game throwing.

Interesting false dichotomy you present there.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Remember, BBT is scum because Bella is scum.

Well, it was because Cheap was scum.
Well actually, it was because Rad was scum.

But he won't commit to that other half. Because he needs me out the game. He can't kill me now.

Think about it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Somnus' entrance felt very townie to me until I looked at his recent games (42 is a good post). He seems an accomplished scum player from the small sample size and this is as much a reminder to myself more than anything else to stop clinging onto an early town read as there are posts I don't like that I will go into.

[

post number here in OP, deleted by accident

] Is the first post from Somnus I don't like - it's the old 'I'm so town you can lynch me today'. 74 is just as bad, saying he is playing scummy and is aware he is playing scummy but doesn't care because he is so town? 77 Somnus refers to himself as LHF, yikes. 3 posts from Somnus in a short space of time that are really bad. There were multiple lurkers in the game at this point and Somnus was nowhere near LHF. On the flip side, he wasn't really coming under any pressure so I don't know where this freak out come from? I mean, there is *some* pressure from Bella, but meh, I don't like this reaction.
104 Another poor post from Somnus. Acts like nothing has happened since he had last posted which is not at all true but allows him to 'catch up' without contributing all that much. In the space between his posts, Rad had posted 83 which could have generated some discussion, mq had posted for the first time (chance for an interaction) and there was the back and forth with my slot and somebody else.

A reminder of how early I began looking at Somnus.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So, how about moving your vote off of me?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wolves of BBTs caliber.

That's funny.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Like I said earlier my personal read on Bella isn’t scum but I could just be wrong. The more I think and look back the more I feel a bit pocketed. Read my D2 posts and see how BBT/Bella react to them compared to how they react to you calling Cheap an easy vote.

Ask yourself - if BBT is town, why have they done the things they have done? Why wagon people to E-1? Why let a person’s who alignment you don’t know coax you into hammering another player whose alignment you also don’t know? Their play is the perfect blend of open wolfing with a dose of WIFOM for everything. If they are Town - what about just not doing anti-Town shit? If their best defense for wagoning so many people is “Cheap did it too” then I find that very lacking.

Spartan died for a reason. He was an outed VT more or less so scum (who would know there is a doc or not) killed him over doc hunting. Why?? It has to be his reads.

There is so much wrong with this post, Whiskey. Will get to it when I can

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't. Usually.

But when people who were town reading you, and whom you were town reading start pushing you, you got to accept you fucked up somewhere.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The more I think and look back the more I feel a bit pocketed. Read my D2 posts and see how BBT/Bella react to them compared to how they react to you calling Cheap an easy vote.

Can you talk more about this, Whiskey?

Ask yourself - if BBT is town, why have they done the things they have done? Why wagon people to E-1? Why let a person’s who alignment you don’t know coax you into hammering another player whose alignment you also don’t know? Their play is the perfect blend of open wolfing with a dose of WIFOM for everything. If they are Town - what about just not doing anti-Town shit? If their best defense for wagoning so many people is “Cheap did it too” then I find that very lacking.

Spartan died for a reason. He was an outed VT more or less so scum (who would know there is a doc or not) killed him over doc hunting. Why?? It has to be his reads.

To gain reads? I got a shit ton of info and reads from pushing those wagons D1. A lot of that stuff becomes even more relevant later in the game when you have had flips, too.

Nobody coaxed me into hammering Vasex. I was already voting him, unvoted when he was at L-1 because I became doubtful and then stated intent once he was back to L-1 with other potential wagons being spoken about.

What is this open wolfing narrative?? I don't understand, is it too scummy to be scum? That anti-town part is insulting - how have I been anti-town?

How did I defend my wagoning with Cheap did it too? Why aren't people reading my fucking posts. I said that Somnus' case relies on many things that are simply untrue or misrepped. One such thing is that 'Bella/BBT are scum because wagons!' I'm saying why Bella/BBT scum only and not Cheap who did the exact same thing? Why not Bella/Cheap? Why not BBT/Cheap? Why does Cheap, who did the exact same thing, not get the exact same read? Because it doesn't fit the narrative Somnus is pushing but nobody is reading so who gives a fuck.

Spartan died because he was town. Why are you so sure scum killed Spartan over Doc hunting? In fact, where does any of that thought process come from? Are you implying there is a Doctor?

Pedit - Can we stop pushing pre flip associations, I fucking hate Newbie games.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If BBT flips green you just lost your best chance at winning this game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What did Spartan point out? BBT is scum because Cheap is scum? Oh yeah, more of that pre flip association scum hunting. Good stuff. Good stuff.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, I'd argue 2 out of 3 of Spartan's last posts were talking about Cheap!Scum as opposed to BBT!Scum but whatever. Doesn't fit the narrative so ignore again.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Well, shit. This doesn't look good, does it?

Umm, if anyone would like anything final from me, just let me know. I'll be in the corner crying.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm a strong player (is that why you're eliminating me?) What a strange sentence.

Scum is in Somnus/Corwin/Cheap. I'm absolutely convinced of it. I started doubting my town read on Rad with how quickly he was onside with Somnus' BS case but then he does things like #1006 and I'm like yeah, he's just town. Whiskey is town purely because he has absolutely 0 incentive as scum to unvote me. Like, literally 0.

Bella is the only one of my town reads that I couldn't hand on heart say I am confident in. The only reason I elim Bella today though is to save myself. If she is town, she will solve this game.

I can't split between the 3 scum because I need a flip to help me. There haven't been a lot of interactions between Somnus/Corwin and Corwin/Cheap doesn't seem to make sense right now either?

So Corwin is the common denominator. If Corwin isn't scum, then my handle on the game is way off. I know we discussed this earlier, but Somnus has been allowed to get away with some real scummy shit in this game and nobody is calling him on it. After my flip, I expect this to happen.

I'm also slightly worried you (Cheap) are being kept around as the elim that wins scum the game. You have done some real shady shit and nobody seems interested - if you're town, I'm guessing you're lined up to go after me.

Can we talk about Corwin's vote on my wagon? It's absolute dogshit, once again a few have called him out on it but it doesn't go anywhere.

So yeah. Elim Corwin today and I think through Somnus/Cheap elims after town wins.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If #1006 is from Scum!Rad to angle his way onto my wagon then I tip my hat to him. He has played a great game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I also don't believe this town has it in them to elim Scum!Somnus. I hope I leave enough behind for that to happen though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Finally, in what I feel is an extremely important time of the game, Bella is nowhere to be seen. That's a little scary.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Finally finally, it seems Bella is the only person who isn't willing to vote me (maybe even that has changed when she returns?) So, as seems to widely be the case, you would have to think Bella and myself are so bad at being scum that we would make it this obvious we're a team.

Or, Occam's Razor says, you got the wrong guy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why the unvote?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, so everyone is willing to vote BBT.

Good stuff.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Somnus hasn't responded to anything all game by the way. That's not just a now thing

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is there anyone you didn't point a finger at just now? Like, seriously....

If you're that unsure about everyone why the fuck aren't you pressuring *any of them* except tunneling me today?

I'm not unsure. I said Rad and Whiskey are town. I also think Bella is town. I've been fairly consistent with this.

I'm pressuring you. Your wagon is the most viable CW to my own and I don't think town are going to go with me on the Somnus push Today. That unvote though, why?

I've said multiple times I don't know how to read Bella, you want to pressure that slot and look at it? I think Rad's hedging and offloading his responsibility looks like trash. You want to pressure that?

Nope, I don't want to pressure Bella. Rad is also town so not going there either. You want to vote Somnus with me? He wasn't too interested in voting you when I asked him unfortunately...

Oh, hey, Cheap, btw you look super scummy and your entire use this game is to miselim later, of course I'm town but I'm not going to vote the scummiest looking slot from Yesterday.

I don't know what this means.

Come on dude, we have almost *four days* left today and the best you can do is park a vote on me the entire time because, what? I'm the "common denominator" for having real life disrupt me and making an honest (hilariously bad, but honest) mistake?

Yeah, your the CW to my wagon, as I've stated. Also, what scum hunting have you done? Your vote on my wagon was absolutely awful, too.

Somnus' argument is absolutely shit, yeah, but at least it drove the game somewhere and we've gotten to this point. I'm not in a rush, we have more than half the day left to come back to you if you're still this awful later.

You still seen to be scum reading me so why have you unvoted?

Somnus argument is so bad that you used it to leech off and then vote me? Cool. I know his case was bad, I read it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also,. even bbt flipping red OR green doesn't really clear anyone or massively indicate anyone. I think elim-ing in the pool that me and bbt have suggested gives more info.

Yep. Listen to Bella. We have a good scum pool. Let's elim from there.

Somnus/Corwin/Cheap. Let's go.

Corwin, how about that Somnus vote then?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Does it really matter if Rad's willing to follow Whiskey blindly? It's a token, if you want to try to do something meaningful instead of muddying shit up to stick to your meta.

I see. You want to be off my wagon if it goes through with votes from Whiskey and Rad?

Got it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You really disliked Somnus' case that much? I don't remember you mentioning that...

I mean, you literally used it as your basis for voting me. So, what gives?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You didn't answer my question either; want to vote Somnus?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have given plenty of arguments for Scum!Somnus, did you read them?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

941

A reminder of how poor Corwin's vote on me was. Also a reminder that he used Somnus' case, which was very bad and now a case that he dislikes (?), to justify his vote on me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Cliff notes;

Avoided interacting with me early in the Day (I realise this is exclusive to me but it always catches my eye when people avoid me)

His reads are always associatives - Rad/BBT, Cheap/BBT and Bella/BBT. This has allowed him to tunnel me for all of D2 and not have to reconsider or engage with ANYTHING else. How does Somnus approach D3? He just says he needs to completely reset as his view was way off and it gives him freedom to vote almost anybody in ELo.

Actually look at his reads. They are always x is scum because y is scum which is how scum do it. It gives them two reads to vote in any given day phase and they never really have to do anything else.

Then there is, of course, the awful push on me and complete disengagement from Day Two. Like, complete disengagement. That's not how town play. Sure, he could be town tunneling but he is so scared of not getting my wagon through that he simply can't afford to entertain the thought of anything else. Again, allowing him a fresh start D3 in ELo.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Lots of little things. Potential greeting tell, the "suspicions" he had on you when you first entered the game look fake and borderline partnered, especially with how quickly that fell apart (205 looks absurd, as does 209), the exact note-taking style i used in my first scum game, the drunken hissy fit upon getting voted, etc. etc. etc.

You just give me a narrative of what happened.

Now tell me WHY it makes him scum.

Anyone seen BlueBlooded defend literally any other "wagon" like this?

Basis of his scum read. BBT is scum because he was defending Scum!Rad's wagon.

Bullshit.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You can always vote me again.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

A note about Somnus' read, he never re-evaluated after Rad started obvtowning. This is weird because the whole basis of his scum read was Scum!BBT defending Scum!Rad.

He just linked me to Cheap instead and used Spartan's NK/ISO to continue with the same read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wow. 437 is actually the start of Somnus' scum read on me - he thinks I scum slipped into this thread from an accidental quote post. Like, that's where it starts.

Then he scum reads Rad, and votes him, because Rad says how ridiculous his scum read on me is. So Rad is actually scum because BBT is scum. But then BBT is scum because he stops a wagon on scum!Rad.

This is awful. Again, this is the BASIS for his reads. Where they very first came from and he has NEVER re-evaluated. Even after Rad obvtowned, he never revisited this idea.

He just happened to have the perfect angle to push from start of D2 with Spartan being killed so he could maintain his read and appear consistent.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Huh.

That is an interesting turn of events.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Somnus

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Don't do pre-flip associatives. Get the information needed first and then go from there.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bella/BBT have basically been aligned all day. Even before Somnus' post, it's like they're a hydra. Instead of seeking read consensus with Rad and Whisky, their townpool, or trying hard to find town in Somnus, Corwin and I, they've been mostly interested in getting their ostensible scumpool to vote one another, or hopping on wagons.

Rad and Whisky haven't been under pressure today. Not much I can find that's alignment indicative.

Isn't getting people to vote with you along the same lines as coming to a read consensus? I don't understand the difference here?

You talk about Rad and Whiskey not coming under pressure and so you can't get a read (that's bullshit, there has been plenty of content from both players to get a read) and then in the very same breath complain about wagons being run up on my scum reads? Which way do you want it? You can't get reads without pressure but you don't want wagons forming either??? What? Your thought process there makes no sense at all and it just comes across as gibberish.

Corwin's most recent vote could be interpreted as trying to save their own skin. Bella/BBT happy to go along with it.

You're right, that's exactly what it looks like. What are YOU doing about it other than pointing the finger at other people?

And then there's a lot of garbage like this:

I'm a strong player (is that why you're eliminating me?) What a strange sentence.

If BBT flips green you just lost your best chance at winning this game.

Prime examples of posting words not quite just for the sake of posting, but for the sake of people reading more posts pushing one's own narrative.
Repeat something enough times, and people believe it. It's a good tactic, I'm not salty about it, though I think an SE using it in a newbie game displays a certain amount of self-involvement.

No, you see, here is what you're missing with my quoted posts. Scum!Cheap gave a genuine thought process of 'BBT is a strong player' and so we must get rid of him. But why would Town!Cheap say such a thing? Why would town!Cheap want to get rid of a strong player? I think that's a slip.

The other post is my ego saying I think town need me to win. One of those posts is YOUR thought process and one of those posts is MY thought process. They are not connected as you're trying to make out.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is there a world where Somnus is town and Rad is scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Cheap having no read on Rad or Whiskey is real, real suspect.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

Something isn't right.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can someone, anyone, talk to me about Cheap.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I thought the same until I looked into it and a lot of the things he says just don't add up. The thought processes behind them feel manufactured and I can't really explain what I want to say. It's like he's not

really

trying to solve the game.

I initially read the finger pointing at Cheap with no votes as likely meaning he is town...but I'm not sure why? Especially when you and myself have come under so much pressure for being on D1 wagons...it has to be a scum driven agenda and Cheap got no heat. Is that just because he is scum?

I agree about his D2 start as well, his reads were way off what they were D1 and there wasn't really an explanation for it other than 'I reread the game'. Read progression, again, doesn't feel like he is trying to solve the game.

He has poked and prodded today, but yeah, no real push until getting on my wagon - which seems the easiest choice? 5 out of 6 players were scum reading/willing to vote me at one point so it's path of least resistance.

I saw something from Somnus that made me think he is town. It's a little basic but it reads genuine to me and I'll get to it in a sec. I actually think the way Cheap constructs his posts makes me want to town read him.. Until I look at the actual content and then I realise x, y and z.

Something that seems to have been forgotten as well is that Cheap's vote on Vasex was the worst out of the lot (on par with Corwin?) and again, it's gone unnoticed. I feel like that would have been an easy push for scum to at least start the Day... But nobody did. Same for Corwin. Is that just because it's Cheap/Corwin??

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh I'll be posting later today when I'm back on my PC. I've got something good for you all and Rad is to thank for that. Post 864 got the ball rolling for me and is going to end up being one of the most important posts of the game.

This is a good unvote, by the way.

I was rereading Somnus and as I read this post it felt like an 'aha' post. It feels genuine, Somnus thought he had solved the game. I think I have equated bad town to scum which is a trap I can fall into when I'm being scum read and I don't understand it.

I can't really explain it any better, but yeah, this is how this post feels to me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I find it very hard to town read somnus when none of the follow up is there: he's fixated on me being shit town in the last newbie, but the newbie before that we had a 'perfect' game and I was on both scum elims. I've tried talking to somnus about Luk ewarm in my last game, and how it impacts my read on you ..nothing. I've asked them about the e-2 mistake, which I do still think is important - if people want to scum read you for e-1, then they have to decide whether you knew it was e-1, nothing. Even the fact I've bought up he played the elim me gambit for vasex and was wrong... nothing.

This is exactly the same thing that gives me pause as well and I have mentioned it several times. He hasn't engaged with anything in thread for a long time that is outside of his own agenda.

I just think he is bad town stuck in a tunnel. That post felt super town and just big ego (which I can relate to). I've solved the game guys, here comes a super important post and I'm so proud of myself. You know? It could be scum excited about what they feel is a genuine looking push but yeah, just doesn't feel like scum to me.

There have been bits of both cheap and somnus I could town read but then it gets drowned out.

Corwin is still a huge pile of null to me, which is worrying.

Cheap's posting style in general reads town to me. But again, when you look at the thoughts/content behind them there just isn't much consistency or natural flow. His posts feel forced (I think he explained this earlier with his editing posts comment)

Corwin is very likely scum. I can elim him or Cheap today. That's where I'm at right now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can't argue against that

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What is weird about it?

A number of things have happened since then that I feel I've explained pretty well?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I dunno, feels like the town got behind a somnus elim and then he dropped out of your lim pool. I know you feel differently about that one post but I'm not sure it saves the whole of... everything

You're right, it is only one post (well two posts technically) but I just find it very difficult to believe it came from Scum. Having said that, I read his latest Newbie game again where he was scum and it was very good (with plenty of those long winded, content-y posts so :shrug:)

I just think there are better elims than Somnus today

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Somnus

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@whiskey - that looks good... But where is your vote?

@Cheap - you're right, hypocrisy isn't a scum tell. Moving on.

Also, I'd be absolutely ecstatic to elim between you and Corwin.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The second someone I want to elim gets to L-1, you better believe I'll be slamming the hammer down.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Intent to hammer Cheap.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Cheap

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Please elim Corwin tomorrow

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Rad you need to unvote me right now.

Corwin/Somnus win this game if you keep your vote on me.

I can't get to the game right now but fuck me, unvote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I've been chewing on this for the last 20 minutes instead of working, and Rad, if you've completely fooled me this game then gg.

VOTE: BBT

Opportunistic vote is opportunistic.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Well, that nk was guaranteed unless whiskey was scum or someone wanted to make a wifom play. Maybe scum!bbt kills town!Bella out of respect but then me and whiskey vote him today for sure. Maybe scum!bbt kills me as wifom play. But here we are with this most obvious nk so I won't bother thinking about it too deeply.

I think 1 misplaced vote on a town here opens up the potential for a double scum vote hammer yeah? For lack of a better term... I dunno if that's what it would be called.

I dunno how to play this out but I imagine I put my vote on bbt and see if the game ends.

In my old games, day would end on a timer so I never had to deal with this sort of scenario.

I can't avoid voting for bbt here. Every single town flip as thought he was scum.

VOTE: bbt

And town are infallible? Fuck me, if Whiskey really wanted to elim me he could have done it yesterday.

If Rad is scum I'm going to be really annoyed

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I need time to get to this game. A couple of hours

That was absolutely reckless if you're town Rad

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm doubting everything in this game. I'm clearly a little rusty, just need some time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

They're not infallible, but they are confirmed town, so I take their opinions seriously. I think any of them put in my shoes right now votes for you BBT.

Their opinions are confirmed town opinions, sure. But they're still just that...opinions.

Town losses wouldn't be a thing otherwise, right? We could just win every game by checking what the dead townies said and following that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ewwww

Opportunistic votes are opportunistic. Jumped too early

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm pretty sure it's Corwin/Somnus.

Your play towards end of D2 was extremely questionable and I don't know if I've just tried too hard to hold onto a town read.

That vote on me was extremely reckless from Town!Rad and you haven't been reckless this game at all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Like, what was the plan? No-one is scum reading you so you thought you would just 1 on 1 the easiest elim in the game?

That was insane.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Someone tell me why Rad is town before I vote him

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Rad/Corwin doesn't make sense. Man, the BBT of 5 years ago just fucking YOLO votes your ass immediately.

What the fuck was that. There is no way that came from town

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Feel like I'm on a ledge here and need talking down. That was some fucking dumb shit if Rad is town.

If he is town he deserves to lose for that bullshit

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bella, I need your help.

I want to elim Corwin Today because I think that gives us the best shot of hitting scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My vote on BBT is safe because if BBT is town, town loses and we deserved to lose. My vote on anyone else would be unsafe because no one is more scum read than BBT from our confirmed dead town.

This is not town thinking

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Not massively.

I think the scum team has at least one of them it in. I'm not convinced sonnusnl doesn't just vote bbt here anyway.

I thought about this as a possible Rad/Corwin team.

Just banking on Somnus not giving a fuck and voting me regardless. But I think if it's both of them they probably just wait it out?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So, yeah, this was a gamble move. I'm town, so if you wanna think I deserve to lose for it, fine man. For me, it was a calculated gamble. Every dead town had a scum read on you. Maybe Spartan's dropped a bit by end of d1, but everyone else, strong scum read.

Again, dead town =/= correct reads. Pretty sure they all scum read Cheap top, no? Where does your logic apply there?

Whiskey might even have pushed you d2 if I was less openly reluctant.

I mean, this just isn't true. You literally absolved yourself of all responsibility at D2 end and said you'll do whatever Whiskey wants you to. So, if he had wanted to elim me, he could have.

YOLO my ass if you want BBT, if scum!somnus is paying attention to town!BBT voting for town!Rad, we lose. And for what? Because you didn't like my play? How was it even scummy? Risky sure, but scummy? Dude if I was scum this game and got this far, I would have sat back, relaxed, and just waited for that sweet hammer vote to present itself.

We lose because if you're town you decided to go completely reckless for literally no reason and so you deserve to lose this game for that bullshit. That was insane, and if it is Corwin/Somnus, I'll be letting you know post game. If you're scum, I respect the play.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Just a quick comment and you can take it or leave it: I’m the guy who in eLo as scum subscribes to receive e-mail alerts on the gamethread every time there’s a new post, and will sleep with my phone by my ear with the volume turned all the way up so I don’t miss a chance to quick-hammer. If I’m scum and BBT is town, this game is already over.

This is cute. Might have been needed in the old days when scum didn't have daytalk, but yeah, absolutely not a thing now. Real cute though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Whiskey would have auto-elimmed Bella if scum!BBT, but here you're suggesting you'd work with her to think through this. Which is it mate, do you trust the reads of dead people or are you latching on to the most convenient living town to distance yourself from having to make input or take responsibility?

I think this is the first time you have used 'mate' this entire game? Am I wrong?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Good to know about the alerts somnus.

Hahahaha. He just buys this at face value? Come on, now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nope. Completely agree.

It's almost like it's been a pattern of play.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's just dawned on me that there are a few things that haven't been considered anywhere near enough in this game;

1) Scum!BBT has dictated both kills with 0 input from his partner
2) Scum!BBT has managed to drive two wagons on the people who scum read him (despite unvoting both Vasex and Somnus at L-1) and nobody else did anything. It was all BBT.
3) Scum!BBT is so bad that every night phase he says 'Hey, this guy scum reads me so we should kill him'. Like, I'm generally pretty decent as scum which is weird because I'm generally scum read especially by people who have never played with me before.

The game flow has clearly been angled in a way that it sets me up for the ELo elim. Also, a question if I may. Everyone is like 'OMG, BBT killed Spartan because he said he was scum!' Why didn't scum!BBT kill Somnus N1?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't do NKA, it's sketchy at best. What I'm saying is that this game really focused on NKA and yet none of the above ever got discussed.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't disagree, and normally I wouldn't put an enormous amount of emphasis on it, especially when talking about JUST the 2 night-kills. But literally every dead/confirmed town has been massively scum-reading that slot, and most of them died shortly thereafter (not just from night-kills). For that slot to flip town, it would mean not only that myself, Vasex, Spartan, Cheapside, and Whiskey all misread it, but that all of the damaging town plays from that slot have somehow come from town. Possible? Yes, sure.

This is what my earlier post referred to. Again, I can't elim anyone by myself. For people scum reading me to be elimmed, they needed 5 and 4 votes respectively. So acting like 'They died because they scum read BBT' makes no sense at all.

I also refer to my earlier points - which nobody replied to.

a) Scum!BBT completely dictated NKs and my partner had literally 0 input.
b) Scum!BBT is so bad that he literally just kills whoever scum reads him.
c) Scum!BBT literally unvoted two players at L-1 because...??? I would love for anyone to finish this sentence for me.
d) Scum!BBT did all of the above AND LEFT SOMNUS ALIVE.

Somebody make that make sense.

@somnus, trust me, I am considering it more today than I was yesterday. A lot. I've also decided you could be town, which is also a surprise.

Talk to me about this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

a) Because everyone who has died has died because they scum read BBT...that was the accusation, right? So, what's being said here is BBT has gone in both nights and said 'I don't care what you think, we're killing X because they're scum reading me.' That's why Spartan died according to some and you said the same for Whiskey at start of D3. If this is the case, which you and Somnus seem to believe, I am then saying why is town!Somnus alive in this game? Scum!BBT kills him because 'OMG he scum reads me'...no?
b) I repeatedly stated NKA was bullshit and yet people continued pushing that angle as to why I was scum. I'm again saying that this doesn't make sense.
c) Show me the Vasex wagon was going through D1 without me and show me the Somnus wagon was going through D2 without me. Scum!BBT jumped off town!Somnus at L-1 because what? Why? If you can prove wagons were going through without me, I'll retract.
d) I love how the NKs have

now

become the most town read players. This negates the 'they died because scum read BBT' no? Or we just gonna say both because narrative?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, I'll do some actual VCA soon because two people have tried and both were awful

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah I realised that.

Doesn't look good for me does it...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Then again, when someone literally parks a vote on you then there is always a chance you're going to be wagoned.

It seems like I have been wagoned the entire game though and I don't really know what to make of it. Hopefully VCA helps

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Will get to the VCA today.

If Rad/Somnus is scum/scum that's some of the weirdest shit I've ever seen. Like, I knew exactly what Rad was doing as soon as he asked the first question. I'm sure Somnus did, too...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Rad, talk to me about why Somnus is town. Independently.

Also, talk to me about why Corwin is scum. Independently.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If you're town you need to get that vote off of me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Are you worried about the VCA, Rad?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So we're playing %s now? Not BBT is scum because... Just well it seems the most likely so :shrug:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I haven't been crying that town is bad. I've been crying that your bad if you're town.

VCA takes time

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And I also need to be at my laptop for it

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Now get your vote off me

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This game has been insane.

You need to unvote me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're right, because Bella's VCA was awful. Awful =/= scummy.

I haven't been solving because I have barely been playing. I need time to get into this and I've had to combat town!Rad throwing around game losing votes.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I've also had to spend the majority of the day defending myself because I'm obviously the ELo elim and I really don't like losing

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why is Somnus/Corwin unlikely again?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Unvote me please

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I wondered why there was a huge gap in VCs and then I remembered Nero modded for a bit.

You should check out my wagon being formed as a counter to Corwin.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spoiler: VCs

Corwinoid (2):

BlueBloodedToffee, Bellaphant

BlueBloodedToffee (1):

Somnus

Not Voting (4):

Corwinoid, Cheapside, whiskey delta, Rad

BlueBloodedToffee (3):

Somnus, Corwinoid, whiskey delta (

E-1

)

Corwinoid (2):

BlueBloodedToffee, Bellaphant

Not Voting (2):

Cheapside, Rad

BlueBloodedToffee (3):

Somnus, Corwinoid, whiskey delta (

E-1

)

Corwinoid (2):

BlueBloodedToffee, Bellaphant

Bellaphant (1):

Rad

Not Voting (1):

Cheapside

BlueBloodedToffee (3):

Somnus, Corwinoid, Cheapside (

E-1

)

Corwinoid (2):

BlueBloodedToffee, Bellaphant

Bellaphant (1):

Rad

Not Voting (1):

whiskey delta

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My wagon was formed as a counter to the Somnus wagon.

Somnus and Corwin literally sat on me all Day.

I'm going to look into these votes and how they happened. Unfortunately though, it's two conf town who tipped my wagon ahead of Corwin's.

Again, both scum probably voting me to counter the Corwin wagon. Rad's vote onto Bella is interesting as well, need to go back and reread why that happened.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

As a counter to the Corwin wagon I meant, not Somnus wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do you have some analysis to go with the votes?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

975

Talk to me about that unvote from Corwin and onto Bella, Rad?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, but you scum read Corwin at the same time who actually had a viable wagon going?

Why did you switch off it?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

But you didn't care about everyone else scum reading BBT as evidenced in your 1002 so that's really not a reason.

Again, you thought both were scum and had a perfectly viable wagon on one of your scum reads. Bella was highly unlikely to be elimmed at that point of the game.

I see no change in your Corwin read to justify getting off that wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What changes between 960 and the change in vote in 975? I'm not seeing it

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bella talking sense

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think that's a bad idea. BBT's been hard bussing Somnus all game.

I genuinely laughed out loud at this. Imagine a world where BBT/Somnus are scum in this game. That's funny.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Rad positioning himself as the towniest of towns is worrying me.

Hey guys, go ahead and vote and I'll show you how town I am. Bella, I need your help. I'm struggling to work this out.

It seems crazy that one of Somnus/Corwin/Rad is town but it seems the most likely town is Somnus?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

But you didn't care about everyone else scum reading BBT as evidenced in your 1002 so that's really not a reason.

Again, you thought both were scum and had a perfectly viable wagon on one of your scum reads. Bella was highly unlikely to be elimmed at that point of the game.

I see no change in your Corwin read to justify getting off that wagon.

Rad, you haven't answered this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Damn, that's a good post

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I need Bella's input

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Don't trust me. Read my play.Read my play.

What's weird is that rad's approach to me seems to change whether they think they can get my vote, or not. Earlier I felt a bit manipulated by bbt but this day phase rad's play just feels very 'setting the narrative' which is nearly always scum.

The reluctance to vote corwin is the most Sus though, but I'm not even sure why? Town! Rad shiuld know rads town, they seem to 100% believe somnus is town and realistically with the bbt hammer sitch I basically have to be town - no way on earth does scum Bella not position that day better, hammer scum!bbt and then leave Bella, somnus and corwin in elo.

This.

Rad is very 'this way or no way' and I think it comes from a plan coming into the Day. He isn't fluid in his thoughts/play at all and I think that's more likely to come from scum scared of how the game may change.

There were a couple of huge red flags from Rad through the game that made me question my town read on him and I consistently threw them to the side to try and not over complicate things for myself because I was really confident in my scum pool. The allocation of his vote to Whiskey was a strange one and because of that he also opened himself up to vote literally anyone (except Somnus I think?) Looking back, it literally allowed Rad to change direction in the game at any given moment (remember he went from hard town reading me to wanting to elim me if Whiskey voted me)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I ballsed the quote up. The post is from Bella, not Corwin.

Rad has also self-confessed that his scum game is actually decent which negates a lot of my 'Rad is newbtown' thoughts in terms of the red flags he was setting off.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I feel like I have been blind to a lot of stuff Rad has done this game because I was so focused on other things and I feel pretty shitty about it now

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Rad is relying on everybody else's reads/thoughts to justify his play Today instead of doing the leg work himself.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT is trying to work with the player who is conf town to him and who he has lined up with pretty much all game.

Hardly a breaking story.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If there's one thing you can't say about me, it's that I haven't put in the work. I'm try hard regardless of alignment in this game.

Sure. You collected some votes together (with no analysis) after someone (Bella?) pointed out I have been a wagon/counter wagon pretty much all game.

The amount of times you say 'dead town scum read BBT' or 'dead town thought Somnus was town' etc etc shows you're not game solving. You're pushing a narrative

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're right, I usually love to throw my vote around.

Except when it could possibly lose me the game. Then, not so much.

Alright, let's see what happens.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So barring some wild play it's Somnus/Rad. Honestly, I've had enough of this game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT/Somnus is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think we vote rad

Ready when you are

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Somnus/Corwin is clear already, no?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Rad is already voting me.

Somnus/Corwin hammer me and game over

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm curious why BBT isn't voting me right now even though I'm confirmed scum on town!BBT's list of unknown pairs:

Rad / Somnus
Rad / Corwin

Could it be that he hasn't even analyzed a town!BBT's list of unknowns? Gee, why wouldn't town!BBT be doing that?

This is funny. Here is me confirming Rad is scum...

Somnus/Corwin is clear already, no?

Or am I supposed to lay it out in a simple, easy to read sentence?

Maybe I should scream from the rooftops that you're scum because you're confirmed scum to me, and nobody else, but I should still scream it anyway just because... Right?

I am waiting for Bella to vote as she is effectively the game deciding vote for me. She is confirmed town to me, I need her to vote you to get to D4.

Simple as that really.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why is it a risk for scum!BBT to vote?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sorry, you're saying there is no risk to me voting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Voting or not voting makes 0 difference, right?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Again, D1/D2 is not comparable to ELo

[BlueBloodedToffee]

There is no risk, right. I agree.

Again, it literally makes 0 difference.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nah, it isn't.

Bella isn't the impulsive type.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Was a good effort though trying to spin it though , good effort.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That sentence is a complete mess

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think it's riskier for scum!BBT to miss a potentially game winning vote on town!Rad, no?

Where is the risk in town!BBT not voting? I have to wait for Bella

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I could scum hunt your ISO, but essentially, my vote doesn't matter.

Bella's does. I could try and influence Bella's vote, sure. I probably should be doing that. I'd rather let her try to figure it out from everything that has gone before though

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I never said there was any risk

I said there was no difference in whether I vote or not

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hey bbt, it kind of feels like you gave up a bit the minute I realised you were the counter to every dead town wagon.

I honestly think town bbt should just be voting rad here, I can't work out why you aren't?

P-edit, what somnus said. I'll let bbt answer

Yeah, I can't lie. Seeing that in the VCA kind of killed me because I couldn't use it for anything useful.

It's usually my to go to in ELo so it kind of stumped me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The only thing I got from it was my wagon being the counter to Corwin.

And even that was tipped in my favour through conf town.

Rad's unvote from Corwin and onto you (Bella) stood out and I still don't think he explained that very well.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

There is no risk, right. I agree.

Again, it literally makes 0 difference.

? Can you rephrase?

There is no risk for me to vote.

It makes 0 difference to the game state whether I am voting or not.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Somnus is a decent scum player.

Check his previous games.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have, I read...three of them? I was right 2/3.

You are also a pretty decent scum player, love.

Hi.

You know how when I'm town I get scum read and when I'm scum I get town read?

Which of these games do you think that is?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I could have sorted your slot, but I unvoted.

That seems silly upon reflection and I shall never unvote an L-1 wagon again.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It doesn't make me happy.

I'd rather vote Rad.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: BBT

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm all good with Mafia thread

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Rad, you played D3 onwards really, really well.

You'll read some of my thoughts in Dead Thread, too.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Well played town. Unlucky Corwin, we were left in a pretty shitty position from D3 onwards

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You'll see that NKs had absolutely nothing to do with their reads either - was unfortunate how that got flipped onto me.

I prob should have self hammered early D3 once Corwin had voted for me. Bella I joined this game to play with you mainly, was genuinely gutted when I got a red role PM

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If people want play reviews I'd be happy to do that, also.

BBT, I had a blast playing with you. I'm sorry for the other things, it was a cluster fuck. I'd like to talk about that later.

Bella, it was fun. I was looking forward to playing with you. For some reason I feel like you were in one of my previous games, but I never checked... enjoyed the entire time though.

Yeah man, I enjoyed playing with you too. We made some mistakes for sure, always happy to talk about things.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Vasex, you were very, very accurate in early game. I actually said in Mafia thread that your reads were very good but you lacked the social skills to get town on side with you.

HEM hit nail on the head in Dead Thread, identifying scum is such a small part of Mafia play. The hard part is convincing town you're a) town yourself and then b) why they should trust your reads.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I hope so, too.

Would be nice for everyone, especially the newbies, to take a look around some of the other queues or even /in again for another Newbie if needed.

Hope to see you all around!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We lose because if you're town you decided to go completely reckless for literally no reason and so you deserve to lose this game for that bullshit. That was insane, and if it is Corwin/Somnus, I'll be letting you know post game.

This is such a great scum move. It made me want to crawl into a hole and die with the idea that I was throwing the entire game with my play. Nooo I don't want to hear about how bad I am in the post game

I'm glad you liked this

Also, I am sorry all for dragging out the bbt thing. I was thrilled to play with him but should've just elimed the slot straight away day three. Head and heart!

The scum PT was fun

<3