LOST (Game Over)

[MalcolmTucker]

What do people think of the Rad/Enchant interactions given the theorising that they're a team? I suppose a bus is possible there but I also do think Rad seems willing to clinically turn on Enchant now in a way I'm not sure would be particularly useful for a scumteam if they're together and there's only three left. If Enchant is scum I'd actually lean a bit more town on Rad, but vice versa if Enchant comes back scum...could potentially just be an opportunistic way to get rid of a viable lim.

[MalcolmTucker]

Is Enchant's claim genuine? Thought it was just Enchant being Enchant lmao.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Rad

[MalcolmTucker]

So I know people hate meta, but I read Newbie 2095 during the break and both Roden and Mala as town in that game played completely different than whatever they're doing here. Both were thoughtful and full of analysis, and both leader types, even on Mala's alt. Like I read Roden as hard town almost immediately and it never dropped.

Is it ridiculous to doubt the mason claims here? I get it could be town complacence being "confirmed" but holy shit, it's like a different person. If we have some way to confirm one way or the other, that would be great, though I'm guessing we do not at this point without a flip, and no need to flip a mason claim at this stage I think?

I'd ask both of them to step up their game if town. I dunno if Mala's trying to push a new goof around town meta or something, but there's so much lost compared to how both of them played in 2095.

A bit like with the suspicion of Pooky and Luke yesterday that never went anywhere, feels like Rad is trying to shade widely townread players on the off-chance it'll work without ever really committing to it at all. I think it's fine to use meta but I think it's understandable that not everyone plays every game in the same way. I did scumread Roden early on but seeing little reason to doubt the mason claim at this stage.

[MalcolmTucker]

So I know people hate meta, but I read Newbie 2095 during the break and both Roden and Mala as town in that game played completely different than whatever they're doing here. Both were thoughtful and full of analysis, and both leader types, even on Mala's alt. Like I read Roden as hard town almost immediately and it never dropped.

Is it ridiculous to doubt the mason claims here? I get it could be town complacence being "confirmed" but holy shit, it's like a different person. If we have some way to confirm one way or the other, that would be great, though I'm guessing we do not at this point without a flip, and no need to flip a mason claim at this stage I think?

I'd ask both of them to step up their game if town. I dunno if Mala's trying to push a new goof around town meta or something, but there's so much lost compared to how both of them played in 2095.

A bit like with the suspicion of Pooky and Luke yesterday that never went anywhere, feels like Rad is trying to shade widely townread players on the off-chance it'll work without ever really committing to it at all. I think it's fine to use meta but I think it's understandable that not everyone plays every game in the same way. I did scumread Roden early on but seeing little reason to doubt the mason claim at this stage.

Considering

Rad

doesn't seem like a powerful posting slot in the game from what I've skimmed of D3 and D4, I don't think that's a strategy that would work with

Rad

alone. So it doesn't read to me as a probable motive for

Rad

.

I want you and

butterchurn

to flesh out your votes.

I don't think Rad is necessarily seeking to completely shift the direction of the game - even good players won't be able to do that without difficulty when you've got 15+ players still active. I think they're still to look more townie by coming up with supposedly fresh reads, but in the end these reads are just noncommittal attempts to shade players who are pretty much confirmed town in the hope that said read might actually gain some traction. Inevitably it tends not to. My reasoning voting for Rad has been quite clear for a considerable while now.

[MalcolmTucker]

I was thinking CSF could be scum but it seems less likely now from Bella's posting.

VOTE: Malcom

Felt like CSF had been quite quiet and I'm interested in looking there, I'll need to take a look at Bella's posting though.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm looking back and Bella seemed to TR Cat quite strongly without necessarily always committing too much - briefly went null.

[MalcolmTucker]

I actually don't think anything would necessarily rule out CSF/Bella as scum together here. CSF TR'd Bella early on and then confidently voted there, but seems viable they could've been one of the scum bussing Bella given what happened. Good way to potentially create some distance given early townreads for each other.

[MalcolmTucker]

Best explanation for Bella reading csf hard town is that csf is town. I realize that's convenient for me given Bella's read on me, but the easiest thing for scum to do is to take a town member and openly read them town, cause it's just a correct read. It's much riskier for scum to openly read other scum as town because those scum aren't going to be nearly as townie. I think it makes the most sense that scum read other scum as null or even lean scum, especially early game where this will give distancing and also make their reads look better than if they're reading inherently scummy stuff as townie.

In a large game when you have multiple scum they aren't all going to automatically scumread each other either though, there's a balance to be had. If you've got a team of four or five then I think it surely makes sense to at least given one member of your scumteam towncred? If scum didn't do that it'd be easy to identify them by just going through their reads and automatically reducing your POE to anyone they have as null or scum. Ideally if you're scum you want to distribute your reads on your teammates evenly. Scum Bella/CSF townreading each other before an eventual bus from Cat should not be ruled out.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't find rad scummy,

I think if rad is scum nking luke would not be the move since it would so obviously point towards them.

I think I'm pretty interest in bluebloodedtoffee right now, their wagon just keeps gettjng built up and going nowhere which I think is a sign they have buddies working with them behind the scenes to help push the wagon away.

i havent talked with gamma for a phat while, and i dont plan to i think shes PISSED at me.

I'm also now wary of johnny and he knows why. I think he could be scum here : DD

Would it, though, given the logic here dictates Rad would be unlikely to do it? Luke is a strong town-player and was basically confirmed town. Rad (or anyone who Luke suspected) can surely argue away that scum would want Luke out the game because it's ultimately always going to be beneficial for them.

Why are you wary again re Johnny? I thought we were pretty solid on Johnny being town now post-D2?

[MalcolmTucker]

Was their town read on Corwin and the 180 on Enchant that caught my interest.

Any particular posts on his Corwin read you can point out?

I was just looking at Malcolm's voting history and thought it was interesting:

Roden
Johnny
Roden
Johnny
Taly
Math (math flip was looking imminent with momentum after butterchurn and csf jump on the wagon and 6 people were on, I jumped on right after him here but I had already claimed I would be jumping on whatever wagon picked up steam)
Bella (after Drap reveal and 7 people were on the wagon, obviously Bella's going to flip and there will be scum on this wagon for sure)
Rad

So a bunch of votes slots that are all likely town, then momentum votes on known scum with no prior votes on them, and now on me (I'm town! and my slot is again a conveniently reasonable vote today for scum )

I typically vote quite sparingly in most games. My reasoning on Math was consistent - I thought their frustration looked pretty genuine early on but gradually started to get the vibe it was being forced. I don't think my vote was particularly opportunistic or that Math was even guaranteed to be eliminated by the time I voted there? Even though it was the most likely elimination. And I voted for Bella because that was clearly the best vote.

[MalcolmTucker]

Was their town read on Corwin and the 180 on Enchant that caught my interest.

Any particular posts on his Corwin read you can point out?

I was just looking at Malcolm's voting history and thought it was interesting:

Roden
Johnny
Roden
Johnny
Taly
Math (math flip was looking imminent with momentum after butterchurn and csf jump on the wagon and 6 people were on, I jumped on right after him here but I had already claimed I would be jumping on whatever wagon picked up steam)
Bella (after Drap reveal and 7 people were on the wagon, obviously Bella's going to flip and there will be scum on this wagon for sure)
Rad

So a bunch of votes slots that are all likely town, then momentum votes on known scum with no prior votes on them, and now on me (I'm town! and my slot is again a conveniently reasonable vote today for scum )

I typically vote quite sparingly in most games. My reasoning on Math was consistent - I thought their frustration looked pretty genuine early on but gradually started to get the vibe it was being forced. I don't think my vote was particularly opportunistic or that Math was even guaranteed to be eliminated by the time I voted there? Even though it was the most likely elimination. And I voted for Bella because that was clearly the best vote.

Also - you include my Taly vote here and lump it in as likely town, while ignoring the fact that I voted for Taly in a gladiate where we know the other player was town. I'm leaning town on Taly anyway but that can hardly be described as an opportunistic nothing vote on a townie when I could've actively voted for someone we 100%, absolutely know was town instead in retrospect.

[MalcolmTucker]

Who besides me do you think is scum Malcolm?

As I've outlined above, I'm increasingly of the belief CSF could be scum. Didn't think much of them as potential mafia early on but felt they'd been quiet last turn and the links between them/Bella look reasonable as two scum-mates who potentially defended each other a fair bit early on before Cat bussed at the right time.

[MalcolmTucker]

Was their town read on Corwin and the 180 on Enchant that caught my interest.

Any particular posts on his Corwin read you can point out?

I was just looking at Malcolm's voting history and thought it was interesting:

Roden
Johnny
Roden
Johnny
Taly
Math (math flip was looking imminent with momentum after butterchurn and csf jump on the wagon and 6 people were on, I jumped on right after him here but I had already claimed I would be jumping on whatever wagon picked up steam)
Bella (after Drap reveal and 7 people were on the wagon, obviously Bella's going to flip and there will be scum on this wagon for sure)
Rad

So a bunch of votes slots that are all likely town, then momentum votes on known scum with no prior votes on them, and now on me (I'm town! and my slot is again a conveniently reasonable vote today for scum )

I typically vote quite sparingly in most games. My reasoning on Math was consistent - I thought their frustration looked pretty genuine early on but gradually started to get the vibe it was being forced. I don't think my vote was particularly opportunistic or that Math was even guaranteed to be eliminated by the time I voted there? Even though it was the most likely elimination. And I voted for Bella because that was clearly the best vote.

Also - you include my Taly vote here and lump it in as likely town, while ignoring the fact that I voted for Taly in a gladiate where we know the other player was town. I'm leaning town on Taly anyway but that can hardly be described as an opportunistic nothing vote on a townie when I could've actively voted for someone we 100%, absolutely know was town instead in retrospect.

Fair on the Taly point. I think voting Ceph was the more townie thing to do there though given the emotions at the time and state of the game, but it's fine.

Roden's probably just mason. Most people seem to believe johnny's probably just town. I know I'm town and you just relentlessly call me scum. So from my perspective, you've just voted for town all game except the 2 votes where you landed on scum out of nowhere.

Again I still think "out of nowhere" is harsh re my vote on Math. I outlined with reasonable consistency why I'd gradually flipped on Math from frustrated town who'd replaced in to much more likelier being scum. From another POV, you can look at my voting record for the first three days as having voted against the elimination of a confirmed townie on D1, and then for two scum both following days. In that regard I don't think my voting record comes out any worse than yours - we were both wrong on Enchant D4 and while you showed suspicion toward Math on you were not necessarily consistent on that slot and as Luke pointed out, others did more to drive the eventual elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

Who besides me do you think is scum Malcolm?

As I've outlined above, I'm increasingly of the belief CSF could be scum. Didn't think much of them as potential mafia early on but felt they'd been quiet last turn and the links between them/Bella look reasonable as two scum-mates who potentially defended each other a fair bit early on before Cat bussed at the right time.

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

Why is this scummy?

[MalcolmTucker]

Remind me why I was your preferred elimination to

Ceph

,

Malcolm

.

I deliberated a bit over it because I didn't scumread you, but ultimately I fundamentally didn't really buy that Ceph opted for the gladiate as scum, just seemed too risky a move for D1, especially against a player who wasn't exactly consensus for elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

Who besides me do you think is scum Malcolm?

As I've outlined above, I'm increasingly of the belief CSF could be scum. Didn't think much of them as potential mafia early on but felt they'd been quiet last turn and the links between them/Bella look reasonable as two scum-mates who potentially defended each other a fair bit early on before Cat bussed at the right time.

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

Why is this scummy?

you townread csf earlier but you changed your read because they're quiet and they somehow bussed when they chose to vote someone who got tracked to a night kill?

I said I was wanting to look there, I then took a quick skim through their ISO in relation to interactions with Bella and vice versa and think they could potentially be scum. What's wrong with that?

[MalcolmTucker]

Who besides me do you think is scum Malcolm?

As I've outlined above, I'm increasingly of the belief CSF could be scum. Didn't think much of them as potential mafia early on but felt they'd been quiet last turn and the links between them/Bella look reasonable as two scum-mates who potentially defended each other a fair bit early on before Cat bussed at the right time.

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

Why is this scummy?

you townread csf earlier but you changed your read because they're quiet and they somehow bussed when they chose to vote someone who got tracked to a night kill?

I said I was wanting to look there, I then took a quick skim through their ISO in relation to interactions with Bella and vice versa and think they could potentially be scum. What's wrong with that?

Whats with the bella interactions that could make csf scum aside from voting there when pd claimed the track?

Very friendly early on, townreading each other with the occasional null from Bella thrown in. Nothing there to rule out potential buddies which is why I'm interested in the slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm, did Luke say anything during the night, or anything in general that he'd want us to know after his death?

Sadly not, presume he may have been busy. The only post between us was one where I actually asked him what he thought of CSF, who I'd been growing a bit unsure about on a gut-level, but never heard back from him by the time this turn kicked off.

[MalcolmTucker]

Would it, though, given the logic here dictates Rad would be unlikely to do it? Luke is a strong town-player and was basically confirmed town. Rad (or anyone who Luke suspected) can surely argue away that scum would want Luke out the game because it's ultimately always going to be beneficial for them.

Why are you wary again re Johnny? I thought we were pretty solid on Johnny being town now post-D2?

from what im gathering, i think rad is slightly still in the noob stage so i think they would be more worried about appearances and not think through 100% what they could do to fix it.

im wary of johnny because of a mini normal that just finished where he was scum imo it seems pretty similar to his play here

Rad is definitely a clever player though and has a strong knowledge of what's going on in the game, it's not impossible, especially if Luke strongly TR'd any potential teammates at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Who besides me do you think is scum Malcolm?

As I've outlined above, I'm increasingly of the belief CSF could be scum. Didn't think much of them as potential mafia early on but felt they'd been quiet last turn and the links between them/Bella look reasonable as two scum-mates who potentially defended each other a fair bit early on before Cat bussed at the right time.

I think I'm hindsight Bella was working very hard to pocket me

It's possible but they did throw in a null-read there at one point. I don't think it's beyond Bella to have townread a potential teammate.

Out of interest, who else do you reckon is scum other than Johnny? I liked the case on Johnny early game but struggling to see it following Math's elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

Out of interest, who else do you reckon is scum other than Johnny? I liked the case on Johnny early game but struggling to see it following

Math's

elimination.

How does Math's elimination rule out Johnny?

Sorry I'm getting confused on who suspected who re scum. Math wasn't really pro-eliminating Johnny - Bella/Johnny was a different story. 10685 outlined why. Maybe it's possible I could be underestimating the amount of SvS stuff we've been seeing though? Some of Johnny's more recent posts don't fill me with confidence but I'm also aware I'm struggle to tonally townread them when they post which could be influencing where I'm at.

[MalcolmTucker]

Johnny could very easily be scum . I don't see them making much a thread impact and the only thing that sticks out to me is that they seem to be around to get a few page tops but not massively enagge with anything else. Tbf I basically think the same about mala and I get the vibe that a fair few people are town reading her! Johnny is worse than mala for me because I can tell by his post count that he has content but my mind just slides off the slot.

I just spoke to cat about Dunn. I think Dunn is a player i will always have trouble reading. It worries me that some of my scum reads are based on 'tone', but I don't think it's a big an issue as I think : for example, I'm starting to town read t bone!

With you I read your posts and go 'yes, no, what? Yes...' in the same post. This happened a lot around your corwin stuff. It's odd to me because I find most players, especially the vocal ones in this game, are very straight to the point so it's easier to just follow and then say 'yes/no/that's scummy'.

@frog, I hard town read them in the very early game for meta, the thing I found towny has disappeared so would be down, yeah.

(more than happy to vote Johnny)

Okay lads, we can stop trotting out Ceph, Dunn, Johnny, and Math votes, they are all town sorry to say. Please be original.

Accurate!

When did you change your mind back on ceph?

Dunn is probably town, Dunn maybe , Johnny prob scum ceph scum.

I can see vig on frog, but considering how the black smoke worked I don't think we can 100% rule out third party.

The kills don't do loads to change my reads - although it does amuse me that professor drapions whole reason for me being scum yesterday was that frog was my scum partner and I'm still getting voted by them!

Feel better about Roden and worse about Johnny from their day phase opening.

@CSF - just a selection of posts where Bella was scumreading Johnny. I'm not particularly getting the impression this is a teammate? I get Bella didn't necessarily vote there in the end but by the same token I'd argue a lot of their play was probably quite hedgy and noncommittal looking back.

[MalcolmTucker]

Johnny

, why admit to being in your scumrange?

I thought that was a weird post but does it feel like the type of thing scum would say?

[MalcolmTucker]

CSF's responses have been reasonable and measured. Whether that's just town measured who's not panicked about accusations or calculating scum I'm unsure.

[MalcolmTucker]

BlueBloodedToffee
butterflies
Malakittens
Taly
Off the Hook
Rad
RCEnigma
Mislim Bait
Cytosine and Guanine
Cat Scratch Fever
Best Bird

I trust Luke's read on Malcom so I'm taking him off for now.

I keep wanting to townread Taly, Nancy and Rad but I think it's just cuz I like em

Also Pooky's done his damage. He claimed 2 shot and both shots are spent. Luke was a bigger threat because he had a bigger voice

Mislim's a slot I need to give a closer look. I wrote them on as likely loud town early on given their early pushes seemed quite erratic but suppose that could have come from confident scum. Their renewed push on me earlier on felt a bit weak and desperate.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcom we're on the same wavelength, I was just reading BBTs ISO and I think I like their mislim vote

Yeah I scumread you early on but in retrospect looks more like I was misinterpreting tone more than anything else. BBT is a solid town for me still and seen little to change that.

[MalcolmTucker]

I mean, I told you that openly?

Why would I do that as scum? Just state my entire game plan for the world to see, hahaha.

That's silly.

I understand because of the meta circle we have in this game that elimming certain people (you being one of them) is difficult with x amount of people alive who won't consider you scum until D8 or some shit and nothing else starts to make sense.

Then people say 'Huh, maybe my meta read of X that I held on to for 750 pages is actually wrong and maybe they could actually be scum because of x, y and z.' That's when town's eyes are open to ALL possibilities. I have to wait for that to happen and I'm cool with that. I'm not going anywhere any time soon.

I still think you're town but I don't think this is particularly unrealistic for self-aware scum to do. Otherwise anyone who's scum could just say "I wouldn't do this as scum" and get away with it. I don't think that in particular is always a good reason to townread someone.

[MalcolmTucker]

Lol - you can fuck

all

the way off of you are using that chart for that purpose.

I agree this is oddly defensive for a post that mentioned BB among several names. It wasn't even a particularly deliberate or strong push on BB specifically from Roden?

[MalcolmTucker]

I try not to let scum influence my thoughts, you know?

PEdit - Malcolm, you're allowed to reverse your town read on me (I am voting you after all!). You didn't answer me when I asked why you were so sure I was town and that post looks like the start of you reversing the read.

Nah I still lean town on you - tonally throughout the game I think you've been posting in a way that's town-indicative, in a good way I don't feel like you're trying to pocket anyone or that you're cosying up to other players in particular with the hope of gaining townreads or being more well-liked by other players. This turn, for example, if scum I feel like you could sit back and let the game take its natural course, because you weren't particularly in danger of getting eliminated, but you're pushing where you genuinely believe you see scum and not just necessarily settling for what could be deemed an easy vote on me with no work being put in beyond that.

[MalcolmTucker]

I try not to let scum influence my thoughts, you know?

PEdit - Malcolm, you're allowed to reverse your town read on me (I am voting you after all!). You didn't answer me when I asked why you were so sure I was town and that post looks like the start of you reversing the read.

Nah I still lean town on you - tonally throughout the game I think you've been posting in a way that's town-indicative, in a good way I don't feel like you're trying to pocket anyone or that you're cosying up to other players in particular with the hope of gaining townreads or being more well-liked by other players. This turn, for example, if scum I feel like you could sit back and let the game take its natural course, because you weren't particularly in danger of getting eliminated, but you're pushing where you genuinely believe you see scum and not just necessarily settling for what could be deemed an easy vote on me with no work being put in beyond that.

To add to this - you are obviously voting for me, but what I mean is you're not just sitting on that vote and putting in zero work beyond that. I'm struggling to see Butterflies as scum but if you're wrong I think you're genuine town making a push where you think you see mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

How is BBT town? He said he wants push me for a) doing pretty much the same thing as me wrt Bella, b) trying - LIKE BELLA to push DNA > Math but most scummy of all -

showing 0 interests in other flips to re-evaluate

. Also d) ignores DNA’s paraphrase that Math tried to run me up.

You would expect town!BBT to express some interest in re-evaluating on other flips but he’s already chomping at the bit to get me miselimed.

If BBT is scum here I'm not sure why they're pushing you at the moment given you're unlikely to be eliminated and the push itself doesn't seem to be helping their standing with the rest of the town. I don't think the logic is great but it's completely viable for contradictory logic to come from tunnelled town sometimes.

[MalcolmTucker]

Lol - you can fuck

all

the way off of you are using that chart for that purpose.

I agree this is oddly defensive for a post that mentioned BB among several names. It wasn't even a particularly deliberate or strong push on BB specifically from Roden?

almost as if it's because i think the actual use of the chart for that purpose is bad for the town and not just for me...almost.

Why is it bad to look at who potentially gains from eliminating players who have been eliminated? Again, it was not a focused or strong push from Roden, just looking at potentially useful info going forward from a player whose intentions we know are townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

Because the info is extremely outdated and was made without any concrete gamestate knowledge.

You don't think there's any chance reads earlier in the game could potentially influence how scum chooses their kills at night?

[MalcolmTucker]

I think what bugs me more than anything about either Rad or Nancy is this like, obtuse indignance toward those suspecting them.

For Rad it's the "OK but do you have OTHER reasons to think I'm scum or just those?"

And for Nancy it's the "Anyone with a brain can see I'm town here so the fact they're not looking elsewhere is obviously scum indicative"

Not only that but constantly shading players suspecting them with stuff like "you're fixated on this slot" when it isn't true. Genuinely just reckon they're scum who doesn't respond overly well to pressure. The responses don't feel natural vs early game when I think they felt more comfortable coming out with some fairly detailed posts.

[MalcolmTucker]

I have a hard time trusting Drap's vetos on anybody when he doesn't seem up to date on what's going on in the game.

- Malcolm isn't my preferred elim toDay, partly due to Luke's townread there and their neighborhood. It feels like a nightkill on Luke directly opens up a path to an elimination on town Malcolm, with a vocal town leader who was one of his main defenders now gone,

so the fact that he immediately became a leading option after Luke's death doesn't sit right with me.

- I've seen Miselim Bait's name thrown around, and I really don't think that Klick's interactions with Bella are partnered, especially 3896 I think never comes from someone partnered with both Bella and MathBlade.
- BBT's conversations with Bella don't seem partnered to me either.
- I don't agree that Johnny should be off the table, nothing there seems partnered, and as far as I know there's nothing to support Drap's belief that they are a doctor, so I will continue to ignore that until given reason not to.
- C&G is also an option, but a weaker one, since some of the interactions make them less likely as a partner to the flipped scum. I don't think it rules them out, though.

It also makes me suspicious of Rad's argument he wouldn't kill Luke because that would instantly put him under pressure. With two scum gone already, I think it's possible scum could play quite boldly at this point to force through eliminations which suit them. If Rad is scum then it surely improved his chances of managing to eliminate me this turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

Drap's case on CSF is strong.

[MalcolmTucker]

Drap's case on CSF is strong.

We kill this.
This spews CSF Town.

If they are a wolf.

I made clear yesterday I think CSF might be scum. I think your case on the slot is quite strong.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why

Rad

is even scumread is still lost on me.

There are dozens of posts outlining why people think Rad is scum? It's not difficult to find them, this feels like a particularly weak attempt at a defence.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcom we're on the same wavelength, I was just reading BBTs ISO and I think I like their mislim vote

Yeah I scumread you early on but in retrospect looks more like I was misinterpreting tone more than anything else. BBT is a solid town for me still and seen little to change that.

How did your scumread on

Johnny

evolve to misinterpreting their tone, and why is that town-indicative for

Johnny

?

How did you cross out

BBT

from your PoE,

Johnny

?

I skimmed their ISO and liked some vibes. Their push on mislim was neat, and then they backed off organically when they and Rad imagined some oog reason for Klick replacing out

I just don't see an agenda there

I'm townleaning

BBT

because of how widely suspected they've been this game. I think

BBT's

an easy push. Their reply about

Bella

felt genuine and not how I'd expect a partner to react.

Namely, I think

Bella

was probably bussed by the majority or all of the scumteam, and

BBT's

admission to

"I don't understand mech, so this ONE possibility of

Bella

still being town"

after

Drap's

claim is an uninformed perspective in a

Bella!scum

world. Especially since

BBT

had a consistent townread of that slot.

My scumread on Johnny primarily involved due to interactions between Bella and Johnny. I don't think they can both be scum together, or it's certainly very unlikely. On the basis of that I put Johnny into my town-pile - from there it became apparent to me I'd likely been pushing more on tone than them actually ultimately being scum, even though I believed they were early on. Some of their posts early D5 were a bit odd but with the knowledge the slot is unlikely to be scum it was easier to view that as town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Taly - reading through your ISO this turn, feel like you're asking a lot of questions in a way which could potentially compensate for actually being busy/scumhunting at times. Is this (yes I'm aware of the irony of this being a question) how you tend to approach the game in general? I feel at times like you're very much sort of loosely hunting for info while asking questions but not necessarily doing a whole lot with that info once you get it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why

Rad

is even scumread is still lost on me.

There are dozens of posts outlining why people think Rad is scum? It's not difficult to find them, this feels like a particularly weak attempt at a defence.

Or you know, I don't find the current arguments compelling?

pedit

legit have to leave now, needed to start packing an hour ago

Not finding the arguments compelling is different to not understanding at all why a slot is being scumread, which is what I took issue with.

[MalcolmTucker]

Taly - reading through your ISO this turn, feel like you're asking a lot of questions in a way which could potentially compensate for actually being busy/scumhunting at times. Is this (yes I'm aware of the irony of this being a question) how you tend to approach the game in general? I feel at times like you're very much sort of loosely hunting for info while asking questions but not necessarily doing a whole lot with that info once you get it.

This is town!Taly besides Math clearly spewed him scum with his fence sitting during the gladiate. Did you even read their interactions during that?

I'll need to go back and reread the gladiate interactions, lot was going on then and easy to miss stuff. I've largely TR'd Taly so far, just their posts today are starting to make me less certain.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hey Malcolm, do you lean scum on any of the following?

Mala, OTH, BB

Mala - unsure how to read on tone, didn't they claim?
OTH - town
BB - slight scumlean

[MalcolmTucker]

Also Malcolm, I'm curious if the points in favor of town rad have swayed you at all

Not particularly so far, but I'd be willing to look elsewhere for an elimination if Rad isn't going to happen.

[MalcolmTucker]

Drap's case on CSF is strong.

Actually what did you like about this? A lot of the scum case was based on my read on math and bella, but your reads on math and Bella weren't any better

I feel like you were a lot more openly defending Math early on though? So far as I can remember, I lightly TR'd the slot but wasn't particularly mounting a defence of Math - then as D2 wore on I became convinced the frustration wasn't genuine. I feel like even once you were okay with a Math elimination you were still very much angling to move elsewhere when an opportunity presented itself.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m to be insufferable all game. all fucking game..

I mean at least I can talk to the dead.

VOTE: dancingpuppets

Do scum really soft their role this early?

I don't think so.

I feel like Mala very much has their own unique playing style a lot of the time, I wouldn't rule it out, but I'm not entirely convinced by the scumcase here. I feel like there's a risk Mala becomes a sort of easy elimination by default here. But maybe I'm just too tunnelled on Rad to see it - certainly if Mala does come back scum it gives us lots of useful info.

[MalcolmTucker]

It does?

What info do you think it gives?

Well if Mala is scum then Rad is town. My hesitation comes from the fact I reckon Rad is likely scum though which sours me on Mala.

[MalcolmTucker]

You said 'lots of useful info'.

Is that it?

I mean, quite clearly, by extension anyone else pushing strongly for Mala would be likely town as well if not already confirmed. And on the other hand, should Mala come back town it'd only affirm my read on Rad as being likely scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

You said 'lots of useful info'.

Is that it?

I mean, quite clearly, by extension anyone else pushing strongly for Mala would be likely town as well if not already confirmed. And on the other hand, should Mala come back town it'd only affirm my read on Rad as being likely scum.

Do you disagree with my perspective in 11956?

I agree Mala is skilled enough to feign seemingly townie annoyance with an ATE if they are scum.

I've also seen Mala react like this in plenty of games as town though - they can be relatively inactive for spells and then will angrily reply to other players if they are suspected.

I feel like their post is pretty NAI in terms of their likely alignment going forward.

I'm aware we're struggling to solidify an elimination here - I'd potentially accept Mala if we're really unable to get anywhere because I'm not entirely sold on the slot as town and if Mala comes back scum then I'll be even more comfortable on the idea you're scum trying to opportunistically force through miseliminations until you're finally caught out.

But I'm also aware that the town doesn't really seem content to eliminate you or CSF right now, and I know I'm a possible elimination as well, and without wanting to prioritise my own self-preservation over the good of the town, I know I shouldn't be getting eliminated given I'm town.

I do fear this is a bit of an easy/simple elimination though where town reaches a comfortable and inoffensive consensus to get rid of a quieter player - while I actually thought Enchant was scum, I can see in retrospect how it was a convenient elimination for some.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hmm, I suppose this doesn't really go anywhere but I don't see anyone pushing Mala hard really? Seems to be a flash wagon that just picked up from nowhere.

It's a bit of a flash wagon yes, but there's been plenty of passing suspicion on the slot throughout the game and we're far enough into the turn that a popular flashwagon could evolve into a viable elimination. We're clearly struggling to settle on someone here.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: mala

For example, BBT, re info - if Mala turns out to be scum, I'm almost certain BB is town, because I don't see any reason for scum to be bussing a potential partner when the wagon hasn't even really picked up yet. But if Mala comes back town then this begins to look opportunistic in retrospect and it'd strengthen my scumlean on BB.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m to be insufferable all game. all fucking game..

I mean at least I can talk to the dead.

VOTE: dancingpuppets

Do scum really soft their role this early?

I don't think so.

I feel like Mala very much has their own unique playing style a lot of the time, I wouldn't rule it out, but I'm not entirely convinced by the scumcase here. I feel like there's a risk Mala becomes a sort of easy elimination by default here. But maybe I'm just too tunnelled on Rad to see it - certainly if Mala does come back scum it gives us lots of useful info.

Talk me through your Rad tunnel then? Cause I'm not seeing it. The catchup tl;dr had a lot of information, nobody challenged it and it reminded someone of something. everything I'm seeing here since my arrival is good, honestly.

-butterflea

Just that I believe Rad is scum - I'm aware I've been on this path for a lot of the game though (albeit with some wavering around D3 if I remember correctly). Mala coming back scum would confirm Rad is town right enough, and I'm aware I could be in the wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ugh since I don’t really wanna die

VOTE: Malcom

I’m just angry at rad.

I'm still reluctant on Mala actually being scum but I'm in a similar position where I'd vote there if it's a 1v1 against me given I know I am town.

But any argument that Mala self-voting was inherently townie feels undermined here when they're clearly voting out of self-preservation - the self-vote could be town frustration but they evidently want to remain in the game and will do anything to ensure that happens.

[MalcolmTucker]

To present a towncase for myself, for anyone on the fence:

1. My pushes have been consistent and reasonable. The most tunnelled I've probably gotten is on Rad but I genuinely think Rad is scum and I've also been willing to reevaluate the slot at times. Thought Johnny was scum initially but I've reassessed there too. I don't believe I'm playing with any sort of agenda that would fit scum if you look through my posts.

2. My voting record is reasonable. I voted Taly D1 when we know Ceph was town. I get Taly is likely town but that cannot be 100% guaranteed - what is an absolute guarantee is that I voted to save someone who turned out to be a confirmed townie.

3. My vote on Math was not particularly opportunistic or last-minute. I discussed the slot a bit in the hood with Luke too, who set out their case and elaborated on what they'd posted in the main thread. I bought that and at the same time soured on my initial feeling that Math's frustration seemed genuine or townie.

4. Luke being eliminated overnight. Why does scum Malcolm do this? Luke was TR'ing me. Their insights were useful in the hood - even if I were scum, it'd be a good way for me to gauge thoughts/ideas in a way that could be beneficial for my scum team if I take said ideas back to them, given Luke thought I was town. I get you could believe there's a misdirect - but every vote counts and there's no reason for me to eliminate a prominent townie who was townreading me and also scumreading my own main scumread. The benefits of any misdirect are outweighed by the risk of being eliminated by players who are inherently more hostile to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

To add to the above - I also tend to be a pretty easy miselimination target when I am town for the most part. If you look through my past history I am often eliminated as town somewhere between three or five days into the game. I tend to be a somewhat hedgy player in how I approach things and once the gamestate reaches a point where I'm not necessarily obvious town based on pushes or voting, I become a useful target when the town struggles to consolidate, perhaps because I'm generally not a town leader type as such. If that's an approach the town wants to take here, fair enough, but it isn't an approach that's going to actually find you scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Below is an extensive detailing of past games where I have been miseliminated as town, generally somewhere between D2 and D5. I'd get any reluctance to rely on meta because meta can be manipulated, but I feel like this game is following a similar pattern to some of those previous ones - a bit of suspicion builds, doesn't necessarily stick because I'm inherently not too scummy, but it doesn't really go away either, and when it's time for town to consolidate I end up being eliminated because the town is struggling to agree on a single elimination candidate. On one or two occasions I perhaps genuinely was the best viable elimination at the time...in other games there were maybe a couple of people with genuine scumreads on me, and the rest of the town followed out of inertia or laziness.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89313

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=8200

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=2925

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... tart=11900

[MalcolmTucker]

Let's kill a mason and then coroner to be sure

I seriously hope this post is in jest. If not, you’re extremely lucky Pooky towncleared you.

he's joking/baiting i think lol

With him or Drap, I have a very difficult time being able to determine that. I think Pooky is really obvious town now and Drap seriously suggested we lim him before elo.

I would prefer to lim slots that I think could actually be scum.

No let me clarify.

The reason you should ONLY and EXACTLY vote Pooky the day before XyLo is this:
1) Could be a wolf going through deepwolf Territory and Frog was right on Pooky
2) If Pooky is Town, T-Bone is confirmed town which forces mafia to either kill them or we get a free IC into XyLo which is very good for us.

Okay... But how is a XyLo with both Pooky and T-Bone dead different from a XyLo with Pooky there and T-Bone dead? This plan is silly.

To present a towncase for myself, for anyone on the fence:

1. My pushes have been consistent and reasonable. The most tunnelled I've probably gotten is on Rad but I genuinely think Rad is scum and I've also been willing to reevaluate the slot at times. Thought Johnny was scum initially but I've reassessed there too. I don't believe I'm playing with any sort of agenda that would fit scum if you look through my posts.

2. My voting record is reasonable. I voted Taly D1 when we know Ceph was town. I get Taly is likely town but that cannot be 100% guaranteed - what is an absolute guarantee is that I voted to save someone who turned out to be a confirmed townie.

3. My vote on Math was not particularly opportunistic or last-minute. I discussed the slot a bit in the hood with Luke too, who set out their case and elaborated on what they'd posted in the main thread. I bought that and at the same time soured on my initial feeling that Math's frustration seemed genuine or townie.

4. Luke being eliminated overnight. Why does scum Malcolm do this? Luke was TR'ing me. Their insights were useful in the hood - even if I were scum, it'd be a good way for me to gauge thoughts/ideas in a way that could be beneficial for my scum team if I take said ideas back to them, given Luke thought I was town. I get you could believe there's a misdirect - but every vote counts and there's no reason for me to eliminate a prominent townie who was townreading me and also scumreading my own main scumread. The benefits of any misdirect are outweighed by the risk of being eliminated by players who are inherently more hostile to me.

2) Is this really the angle you are going to go with your voting record? Like that is really really weak. If both Taly and Cephrir are town, who you vote hardly matters as it is lose-lose regardless.
4) Okay, you might have a point except there's two other scum still alive. Even if Luke is reading you as town, it's very possible that Luke has nailed the other two scum on your team making it beneficial to still kill you. I still find this reasoning overall too speculative to be used for process of elimination.
~Cytosine

I don't think my voting record inherently clears me as town, I'm aware one of the reasons I'm a potential elimination is because I've not managed to consolidate myself as confirmed town yet, I'm just pointing out it's a pretty solid voting record. My point is Taly is probably town but we do not absolutely, definitively know that to be the case. If you have any doubt whatsoever then my vote on Ceph shows I'm voting with the interests of the town because we do absolutely, 100% know Ceph was town.

If I were scum it'd be possible Luke could have nailed my teammates here - but again that's a hypothetical situation. Go on the info we know. Luke TR'd me. Luke scumread my own main scumread - it should be pretty obvious to everyone that if I were scum in this scenario, Rad would be town. If you want to believe I'm in a scumteam that killed Luke because of his other reads, fair enough, but it prioritises hypothetical info over what we actually do know as confirmed fact.

[MalcolmTucker]

I should also add:

1. My positioning on Mala here is quite townie. If I were scum, it'd be in my interests right now to fabricate a sudden proper scumread on Mala for self-preservation. It wouldn't be impossible to do and would give me a better chance of staying in the game. But I'm not going to do that because as town I'm not sold on Mala as scum and I don't want to lie. You can see a similar pattern in one or two of my previous games. Ultimately if it's a 1v1 I will vote Mala because I know I am 100% town, and if there's a 20% chance of Mala being scum then that vote remains in the interests of town. But my vote would be reluctant.

2. To add to previous meta, my past scumgames are informative in addition to my miseliminations. One of Luke's main reasons for TR'ing me was post 428 where I said I'd never been eliminated D1 - I forgot my first scum game where I accidentally outed myself to Flea in a hood because I confused my scum thread and hood thread. Luke pointed out I'd be more likely to recall this as scum because I'd be hyperaware. I did this happen to forget that game when I made the aforementioned post because I was in it so briefly, but I do get what Luke means, if I was scum I'd be more likely to recall that. But in my other scumgame where I didn't implode immediately I managed to win while basically worming my way into being confirmed town and barely being suspected all game. I'd argue when scum and when I don't implode, my play is more focused and actually better because I'm stronger at constructing a narrative with the focus on winning the game, vs being more aimless as a townie because I'm willing to admit I don't necessarily know who is scum or town.

Both games for reference.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=88783

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89374

[MalcolmTucker]

Luke dying in a scum!Malcolm world makes sense as a wifom play and framing town!rad play while removing a strong town player. It's a really solid setup.

Luke dying in a scum!rad world makes sense if you want to blatently keep killing people who scum read rad because they're also strong town players you want to remove to help preserve the rest of the team. It's super unfortunate for scum!rad and likely gets him killed.

Luke dying in a town!Malcolm town!rad world is also solid because rad gets framed, Malcolm looks terrible after rad flip, and Luke is dead.

I am aware there's a world where I eliminate Luke as scum to frame you, but as I outlined above I think the benefits of that are outweighed by the obvious negatives we're literally seeing right now - I'm a possible candidate for elimination and one of my most prominent town defenders is not around to advocate for me remaining in the game.

I'm aware the second possibility would be really bold from you but you also have the immediate out you're using right now where you say eliminating Luke is too bold a move for scum Rad to make. If you're scum and have teammates who aren't being suspected, it's a viable approach for one member of the scumteam to be much bolder in their play to force through miseliminations or kill players who are a direct and immediate threat to them.

The third option is certainly a possibility and is one I'm giving some consideration too. It'd be a clever play from scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well Malcolm, looks like both scum!Malcolm and scum!Rad defenses here are wifom based, and the most straight forward reality is option 3. Let's consider it indeed.

As I've said I'd be willing to compromise on Mala given the state of play, just unsure we'll actually find scum there.

[MalcolmTucker]

Probably best to yeah.

VOTE: Malakittens

[MalcolmTucker]

2. My voting record is reasonable. I voted Taly D1 when we know Ceph was town. I get

Taly is likely town but that cannot be 100% guaranteed

- what is an absolute guarantee is that I voted to save someone who turned out to be a confirmed townie.

Yeah once you said this I stopped reading and said “this can dis”

Math and Bella spew Taly!Town hard.

Bella hard pushed Taly and Math joined in I believe.

I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest there was some scum theatre going on in regards to Math. The slot was pretty strongly suspected for basically their entire duration in the game and it's perfectly viable one or two members of the scumteam joined in those pushes quite extensively to avoid looking like they were just jumping onto the wagon at the end opportunistically. On balance Taly is unlikely but not impossible, Rad looks much likelier I reckon, but as I've outlined I'm happy to compromise this turn and reluctantly vote Mala if people are sure Rad is townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

Guys

I don’t wanna die anymore

I’m in a better mood now I swear

After I slept for a while ya know and cooled down

As I've said I'm sceptical you'll actually come back as scum but we're pretty much at a 1v1 here. I know I'm town and I think I've presented a perfectly reasonable towncase for myself outlining why that is.

[MalcolmTucker]

Guys

I don’t wanna die anymore

I’m in a better mood now I swear

After I slept for a while ya know and cooled down

As I've said I'm sceptical you'll actually come back as scum but we're pretty much at a 1v1 here. I know I'm town and I think I've presented a perfectly reasonable towncase for myself outlining why that is.

So who would you prefer to lim then?

~Nancyfly

I've indicated I think Rad, CSF and BB are all possible scum. But I get we're not eliminating Rad here who has been my prime choice and I feel if Mala does come back town then it solidifies Rad as scum for me. So I'm willing to compromise on Mala given I'm acknowledging there's a chance the slot could be scum, and because I know I'm town and therefore statistically it's ultimately the better elimination.

I don't think Mala's responses over the past day or two have particularly strengthened by TR though - the sudden conciliatory tone feels a bit like an overly deliberate tone shift because the more confrontational approach to being scumread wasn't working.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'll emphasise my towncase in 12150 again - as town I can often look quite hedgy/uncertain and after a few days of play this typically leads to me being scumread and seeing as a viable elimination candidate when the town is struggling to consolidate. I'm aware meta has its limits and some of you will be scumreading me for reasons beyond my tone alone, but I the examples given are a pretty useful look at how I'm often misperceived in games as town and how I end up being miseliminated regularly.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm, what's up?
How are you? Are you still getting eliminated every day 1?
How has all of the being eliminated effecting your playstyle this game or how do you predict it will if at all?

I've actually never been eliminated D1! As a general rule when I'm town I manage to get through the first day, but after that I'm sometimes eliminated. Either way I tend not to let it impact my playstyle all that much - I wouldn't even say I have that much of a specific playstyle for the most part, I simply analyse and try to find connections between different players but tend to be pretty uncertain in how I approach the game.

I kinda like this post as coming from a town mindset for Malcolm.

Because several of us here know he was eliminated day 1 as scum in the Web of Lies games (and is what Bell is refering to here I believe).

But he didn't even think of that game. His thoughts went to "I never get

mis

eliminated day 1." And [I'm town this game, so I am immediately comparing this game to my other town games] feels like a genuine thought process. While I would kinda expect scum!Malcolm to be more aware of the scum game where he crashed and burned

This was also Luke's sort of meta argument for townreading me early on I'd referred to before. I'd argue he largely retained that line of thought early on while we were in the hood together etc. I get Luke's not guaranteed to be right on everything, but it's a pretty solid thought process from a player who from an objective POV was having a good game via nailing Math for example. They were on the right tracks a lot I'd argue and it makes sense scum would have wanted to eliminate them for having good and reliable reads. Even as a bold misdirect there is just no sense in me killing Luke when he consistently townread me, unless you believe I was confident enough as scum to keep dodging suspicion going forward.

[MalcolmTucker]

I answered a few posts above.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm.
Can you explain your SRs on CSF and BB?
I don't get them, especially on CSF who hasn't been doing scummy things as of late.
-Guanine

Outlined beforehand I liked the possibility of a CSF/Bella team, their interactions with each other felt like it could check out as scum teammates - some soft TR's with the occasional null read thrown in there just to create a little bit of distance. Beyond that I don't think CSF's pushes have been great as of late and feel like they could be coming from scum trying to defend teammates and implicate other players I read as town. Is is not interesting, eg, that Cat continually pushes Johnny, who I think is looking really townie, and then as the day wears on a whole bunch of votes start to pile onto Johnny again?

BB has been more a scumlean than definite scum but I remember finding some of their responses to pressure a bit off. Beyond that feel like they're coasting a bit in a way that'd be conductive to scum if we're not going down the right path, and not seen anything in particular that'd rule them out being partnered with Math or Bella, unless I've missed something.

[MalcolmTucker]

I see.
Though, I think that CSF's push on Johnny is NAI because it could be due to her not wanting to vote you or Mala and Johnny being her SR.
On the other hand, why is Johnny a TR? He's still null for me.
-Guanine

I don't see Johnny/Math being scum together on the basis of their interactions before Math was eliminated. I scumread Johnny early on but have very much flipped on that and have made that clear. I'm aware I could have some incorrect reads myself, but I very much feel like we've mindmelded a bit and I think his pushes and reads have gotten increasingly solid as the game goes on.

I'd also argue that my reevaluation of Johnny in itself is pretty townie and shows a decent degree of flexibility given my continued push for Rad in the last day or two which hasn't really gone away despite my willingness to compromise at the moment. Mala/Johnny are the two main alternatives to me but I've not particularly pushed either of them too strongly because I'm not convinced they're scum, albeit I am willing to compromise on Mala because I'm not certain enough on the slot to fight for saving it when my elimination is the likely alternative.

[MalcolmTucker]

Outlined beforehand I liked the possibility of a CSF/Bella team, their interactions with each other felt like it could check out as scum teammates -

some soft TR's

with the occasional null read thrown in there just to create a little bit of distance.

I don't think this is true. Bella was not soft TR'ing me aside from early day 1.

Beyond that I don't think CSF's pushes have been great as of late and feel like they could be coming from scum trying to defend teammates and implicate other players I read as town. Is is not interesting, eg, that Cat continually pushes Johnny, who I think is looking really townie, and then as the day wears on a whole bunch of votes start to pile onto Johnny again?

If your whole reason for thinking Johnny is town is that "Bella kind of pushed Johnny as scum," then why is Mala ever a better vote here? Mala was (a) actually voted by Bella and (b) pushed by Corwin as his only scumread

This question is not really to you, but more to the peanut gallery, but I legitimately don't get it

Perhaps you don't think Mala has done enough to prove she's town, but what on earth has Johnny done either????

My primary reason for switching on Johnny was the Math/Johnny interactions for the most part. Don't believe they can be paired.

Beyond that I think Johnny's pushes have been solid this turn and we're agreeing on quite a bit now. Maybe a risk I'm getting pocketed but I think it's much more likely Johnny is also town and our views are just aligning on lots of things.

[MalcolmTucker]

I still think BBT is town and despite my read on Rad the above is a good point. Drap is obviously town and genuinely scumreads the slot in a way we can't necessarily say others do but it's not a great wagon.

[MalcolmTucker]

BBT is a great counter wagon to just about anyone. If you see a wagon gaining momentum and you want to stop it, just vote for BBT. BOOM instant competing 3-6 person BBT wagon!

Still relevant I guess.

Out of interest here though, who do you specifically think is running you up with scum motives in mind, and who is it to stop from being eliminated? Drap isn't scum, Butterflies is incredibly unlikely to be scum, do you think it's CSF? Given I'm town and I scumread CSF myself, and given CSF kind of scumreads me, I don't necessarily see the motivation for them to prioritise voting you to stop an elimination on Mala or Johnny, because they don't particularly look partnered with either of those slots, especially Johnny.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel CSF and Malcolm have decent partner equity.

I don't really see how I'm paired with CSF in this scenario given my push there. Feels like a bit of a desperate attempt at finding a link.

[MalcolmTucker]

This is probably all TvT.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like the two of you (well, three technically I guess) just read the games in very different ways from each other and it's got you at loggerheads. But I don't feel like either approach is coming from scum.

If BBT is scum it makes sense to focus on one of the slots likely to be eliminated and either solely push there or intensely focus there. I don't think this Butterflies push is improving their standing with town as such and it's clearly not going anywhere in terms of garnering an actual elimination. If BBT is scum they're taking a bit of a risk in terms of attracting some suspicion and a vote from Butterflies who is strongly TR'd.

[MalcolmTucker]

If BBT is scum it makes sense to focus on one of the slots likely to be eliminated and either solely push there or intensely focus there.

I'm not exactly beating the bbt scum drum here but this isn't how I see bbt scum behaving. They don't strike me as someone who plays it safe

Maybe not, that's a valid possibility. I guess if they're scum this is a good way for them to show they at least have strong reads and don't want to just follow the crowd. I'm just not really seeing it from these particular exchanges at the moment. What's scum BBT's motive pursuing Butterflies with what I think is a relatively weak case on them? Why not focus elsewhere on a slot that's actually likely to be eliminated? Unless nobody up for elimination is scum I guess, and BBT could then focus on a slot they know won't go out because they look better for it. But I feel like these scenarios involved a lot of hypotheticals unlikely to be true.

[MalcolmTucker]

You can hard disagree all you like. Your meta reads this game have been garbage and you tried to use meta to read me and it was equally as bad.

Just because we thought the same thing it doesn't make us the same alignment. Especially when me thinking was way out there simply based on the fact I wanted Bella to be town more than anything actually content based.

I've scum read your slot for the majority of the game.

These points don't line up. In the first part, you're talking as if they're town who is playing badly (their reads so far this game are bad, therefore their read on you is equally bad). But in the second part, you are saying that you read them as scum. The almost condescending tone you're using here doesn't make sense if you're talking to someone that you actually scumread, unless you were talking about how they were playing badly

as scum

. Nowhere in this conversation does it actually feel like you think you are talking to scum or that you want them to be eliminated.

I could be wrong and don't want to assume where BBT is coming from but I get the impression they're reading Butterflies from a more emotive POV now where they're scumreading the slot due to playstyle and that's leading to some incoherent and inconsistent logic. I don't think this push looks great but I keep coming back to "is this how scum approaches this?" and I don't think it is personally.

[MalcolmTucker]

it's got you at loggerheads

you're all mouth and no trousers.

This game cool as hell

I need to use loggerheads more often, great word and fits well in a game of mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Still not convinced BBT is scum. Of BBT/Mala I'd prefer Mala.

[MalcolmTucker]

Is anyone down to vote MisLim?

Think there were some suggestions Klick was spewed town from some interactions early on but we've probably had some scum theatre going on at various points in the game. Not been entirely keen on MisLim's play at times and feels like they have been suspiciously quiet as of late, if we've been pursuing the wrong targets would make sense for them to be much quieter I suppose and let events take their course.

[MalcolmTucker]

Don't like how the Mala wagon keeps stalling whenever it gets near to going through.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think DNA is town here, also Pooky and MB. I would be extremely surprised if both Mala and Malcolm are both town. Based off of Mala continuing to make reads even post-hammer instead antispew, makes me not very confident on Mala red flip.

Malcolm’s beetle juice was interesting irrespective of what she flips.

My what? Sorry catching up, see we've hammered.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yo Luke

Why would I read your past games if I was scum? Why you specifically?

Remember when I targeted you pretty early day 1 and I got that scum read on you? Well I wanted to learn more. So I read through your scum games, and damn, you're good. You got that top town read and you were pumping out the content. That stuck with me and I kept getting that paranoid feeling that you're just dominating everyone through high effort scum play.

Pooky solidified that idea by cop checking you to make sure you weren't scum dominating us.

How did I come up with that shit without reading your other games? I called that out way before pooky did. Why would I read your other games in a 26 player game at the beginning when we're getting 10-20 new pages every few hours?

What's the purpose of scum!Rad going out of his way to do that at that stage of the game?

Sorry catching up. Given my thoughts previous day I'm largely back to Rad - feels like the second time Rad has latched onto an easyish elimination target who wasn't necessarily too high activity to save their own skin and look like they were being reasonable by being willing to compromise.

I'm open to changing my mind as always as I go but bits like this just ping me big time - if you inherently believe reading Luke's game can make you look townie then the scum motive to do so is right there. If you'd wanted to continue pushing your own scumread on Luke then using his past scum games as a comparison could have been a perfect justification for this. Good scum put in the work in, and I think you're capable scum here working hard.

[MalcolmTucker]

i dont actually believe you read shit cuz u cant even name the name of the game you supposedly read

r u desperately trying to figure out what luke was tlaking about rofl

I don’t like this from Pooky but maybe I’m bias.

Nah it's really bad. I don't see how me not remembering the name of a game is scummy at all.

It's less you not remembering the name of the individual game that's suspect and more the fact you seemed to be incredibly light on the details in general which is suspicious. It'd be pretty easy for anyone to say "I read experienced player X's scum games, they're very good" on the basis that a good, experienced player will have some good past scum games. This allows you to look like you're putting the work in extensively as town - you said yourself that reading Luke's past games was a good reason to TR you.

[MalcolmTucker]

Probably just town. Scum!bb scenario is too convoluted so I'm not going to worry about it.

Talk me through it?

Nothing stands out as significant for either town!BB or scum!BB. BB prob has the ability he claims and he prob picked Ceph n1 and Luke last night. Luke prob wrote up a scum case on me and either scum!BB will take advantage of it or town!BB is convinced by it. Nothing in his play throughout the game screams town or scum for me but little interaction here and there come across as town to me. Nothing specific I can think of, it's just gut reads on his posts throughout the game that lean more towards town than scum. So I'm content just leaning town on him. I wouldn't be incredibly surprised at whatever BB flips tbh.

I don't have any issue with the gut leaning because I get it's sometimes hard to suss out players, but I don't see how this makes BB being scum "convoluted". In fact, if anything it's the exact opposite for me in this scenario...someone who's this long into the game but who doesn't stand out as either alignment can definitely be scum, it signals they're playing carefully and haven't managed to particularly clear themselves but have been careful not to implicate themselves as possible scum either.

[MalcolmTucker]

Huh.

I'm intrigued that you have a player who you don't seem to have a real read on and you don't want to investigate it further, in addition to this, you immediately begin to push a counter wagon in Malcolm.

For all Rad has accused me of focusing in on them throughout the game, their default is basically to constantly go back to voting me before eventually compromising on another lim target when the rest of the town aren't as keen on eliminating me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Anyway, flip Malcolm after I flip green please. That would be 2 town in a row that have him as scum.

My gameplay here isn't within my scum range. I'm far more calculated as scum. My openness to just come in here and talk openly is representative of my town play. No way in hell does scum!Rad push Nancy again after barely surviving that first encounter with her. He pockets the shit out of her and lets her come to his defense. Disbelievers and scum are welcome on my wagon though!

Again, Rad basing their towncase on how they would supposedly play as town, ignoring the fact that good scum can try to manipulate other players by doing things that might not seem inherently scummy at a first glance.

And it's worth noting that Rad's push on Butterflies resulted in a brief, quick vote before they defaulted back to me. This reads more like Rad desperately pushed Butterflies then backed out of it once said push went nowhere, and now is trying to justify that push.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm seeing some suggestions of Drap being scum and barring some very confusing mechanics I'm not grasping I don't see how that's possible given they were pretty much solely responsible for outing Bella as scum on D3?

I get there's likely been a lot of bussing here and I think it's perfectly possible someone is scum who's managed to look pretty townie with their pushes in the early phases of the game but I don't see what Drap has to gain by directly causing Bella's elimination? They're wrong on me and I think they're also wrong on Rad but someone with bad pushes can be - and often is - just uninformed town just down the wrong path.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hello friends. Not gonna reread 500 pages but just wanted to get back into the swing of things.

Where are we at right now?

Also this is literally Yeet's only post since replacing in for Taly so far. Maybe they're busy but feel like Yeet was typically a lot more outspoken and active from our previous game playing together. I wasn't as sold on Taly being confirmed town as others and intrigued to see Yeet's contributions going forward.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well Malcolm, looks like both scum!Malcolm and scum!Rad defenses here are wifom based, and the most straight forward reality is option 3. Let's consider it indeed.

As I've said I'd be willing to compromise on Mala given the state of play, just unsure we'll actually find scum there.

Probably best to yeah.

VOTE: Malakittens

Why did you never move your vote from mala after this? Multiple alternate wagons cropped up after this.

I don't recall any of the altenative wagons ever being preferable for me.

I believed BBT was town and little has changed that since. I believe Johnny is very likely town and wasn't interested in going there either. Those were, so far as I can remember, the two main counterwagons proposed. I made clear Mala wasn't a strong SR for me but I felt like it was a better elimination than any of the main alternatives proposed.

[MalcolmTucker]

I was a wagon, and you were scumreading me.

How far did the wagon get and when was it timed again? There were spells when I wasn't necessarily active for 12-24 hours or so and you eventually claimed once your wagon was building. Once you claimed it was unlikely you were going to get eliminated and beyond my general suspicion of you which even then I was aware could have been wrong, I didn't have much of a reason to doubt your claim. Until that point I'd have eliminated you over Mala. I'm a pretty sparse voter anyway and will often forget to change/add my vote.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry catching up. Given my thoughts previous day I'm largely back to Rad - feels like the second time Rad has latched onto an easyish elimination target who wasn't necessarily too high activity to save their own skin and look like they were being reasonable by being willing to compromise.

Fair enough, the wagon built and dissolved quickly. But why is rad scummy for compromising when you do the same thing?

I was compromising because I was the primary alternative elimination for a long time - from that POV as town Mala remained a better elimination even on a slim chance they were scum. As I've said, the alternative wagons weren't better for me. Hence I stuck to Mala.

With Rad, I think their compromises have often been opportunistic when an easy opportunity has arisen to eliminate a townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

I believed BBT was town and little has changed that since. I believe Johnny is very likely town and wasn't interested in going there either

I kind of think your Johnny read is incoherent

I'm not sure why you think this.

I've stated several times Johnny's interactions with scum didn't strike me as aligned. I also increasingly mindmelded with them in a way I felt was unlikely to be scum.

Also, if I'm scum, what's my motive for suddenly going from scum to town on Johnny? It's a slot I could've pushed reasonably as scum continually, no? Suspicion has remained there and it'd have been a viable alternative if I wanted to divert away from Mala at any point. I'm not sure what I particularly gain from backing off Johnny as scum? My read there is a perfectly natural development where I've reassessed a player as the game has gone on.

[MalcolmTucker]

Catching up, seeing little to change my read on Rad. Content to vote there.

VOTE: Rad

[MalcolmTucker]

oshit I wasn't expecting that lol

This is so obvious and transparent here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Rad continually tries to convince Pooky they're being unreasonable for a solid read, Pooky then suddenly changes their vote and Rad gets all nice and apologetic suddenly. Obvious scum, eliminate this slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

I find your argument for clearing yourself based on your primary pusher being nightkilled to be absurd.

It's especially absurd given Rad's push on me, which would involve me eliminating Luke who was strongly townreading me.

Rad's play consistently involves "this scummy action cannot be from me because it'd make me look too scummy" which is inherently a terrible defence. Yes, scum want to hide, but sometimes scum can play aggressively to eliminate threats and achieve their goals. If Rad killed Luke then he's already managed to get away with it for one turn. It's hardly immediately eliminated him from the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

i have a certain amount of energy every day for life and if something is enjoyable I will spend energy on it

when that thing becomes not enjoyable I will not spend energy on it.

there is no point for me to spend energy on this game.

Pooky, you are being extremely frustrating. If you genuinely think Malcolm is a better vote, great but to switch a vote because you don’t care about the game is extremely unhelpful. :/

Yeah, I get why Pooky is frustrated here but we have a decent number of votes on Rad and can still push it through. It's a good vote for all the reasons (and more) Pooky has outlined.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm and Rad wagons are neck and neck

there's no reason for a scum!Malcolm to give up and stop posting.

For what it's worth I was genuinely just busy for most of yesterday (and a lot of this week) - the lack of content yesterday should be taken as NAI.

[MalcolmTucker]

To add to the above - I also tend to be a pretty easy miselimination target when I am town for the most part. If you look through my past history I am often eliminated as town somewhere between three or five days into the game. I tend to be a somewhat hedgy player in how I approach things and once the gamestate reaches a point where I'm not necessarily obvious town based on pushes or voting, I become a useful target when the town struggles to consolidate, perhaps because I'm generally not a town leader type as such. If that's an approach the town wants to take here, fair enough, but it isn't an approach that's going to actually find you scum.

Referring to my previous towncase last turn as well - I feel like this is particularly pertinent given Pooky's vote on me despite their preference for eliminating Rad.

I tend to try and stay relatively calm during games but will be immensely frustrated if my elimination as town here is partially caused by scum basically annoying some townies into giving them another day. I am not scum here and I've presented what I think is a solid and robust case as to why I'm not.

What even is the actual case against me anyway? For the most part beyond one or two people who genuinely suspect me I feel as if it boils down to vibes since I'm not officially cleared yet. It feels a bit like the recurring case against BBT earlier in the game - when it came to actually presenting proper evidence for why BBT was scum nobody was really able to do so.

So yeah, basically a plea not to eliminate me when I'm town and when it's increasingly obvious to me the counter to my own wagon is scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also re last turn - I feel like Rad's positioning on Mala looks a lot worse in retrospect. I was still a viable elimination for much of the turn but Rad moved away from me and onto Mala, and then was pretty comfortable there. This is despite Rad's constant scumread on me and the fact that I was still actually a viable elimination for most of the last turn. What's Rad motivation to move off me here if they're town? It makes much more sense from the POV of scum who was simply looking for the easiest and quickest town elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

Rad continually tries to convince Pooky they're being unreasonable for a solid read, Pooky then suddenly changes their vote and Rad gets all nice and apologetic suddenly. Obvious scum, eliminate this slot.

Lol this ignores any and all emotion that went into that exchange before the vote shift as well as the emotion behind the vote shift and instead just paints me to be some scum who feels bad for pushing poor town!pooky too far.

Malcolm consistently for the past month has been incapable of interpreting anything I do as anything but scum motivated with a scum agenda.

This is again a complete fabrication. I TR'd you for most of D1, I then moved to scumreading you, I gradually moved back to town and then later consolidated on you as being likely scum again. Your argument that I have relentlessly pushed your slot to the point where I refuse to countenance the possibility you're town is a genuine lie and other players should be paying attention to that. I've told you this is a lie on multiple occasions now and yet you constantly repeat it in an attempt to make me look unreasonable.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well we can hang out together on the malcolm wagon and mala can check his dead red corpse tonight to tell us what he was

Math's interactions with/about Mala:

2313 - Math just points out corwin's push on frog and asks if it was ever explained
2459 - responds to some joke mala said
2468 - Mala with some NAI claim that math could be scum cause he was scum a couple times before in a replace and Math responding seriously to it
2480 - More nonsense argument about something that's NAI
2570 - friendly banter
3516 - Mala calling BBT a baddie and Math pretending to be angered by it
3540 - Math urges Mala to make a case on Taly instead of Mala just talking about maybe voting Taly (which is actually townie of Math so he should say this regardless of mala's alignment to look townie)
3684 - If Mala flips red, this is Math pushing distance between Corwin and Mala claiming Corwin is attacking both Frog and Mala.
5359 - Calls Mala probably town
5363 - Wants people to vote one of Mala, Frog, Taly, Dunn. He pushes this for a while.

So my takeaway:

- Mostly just NAI banter and soft interactions
- No hard pushing on or supporting of Mala. The push on 4 people later includes Mala because Mala's a top wagon.
- Nothing that jumps out as clearing Mala, and nothing jumps out as damning Mala either

yeah fuck it. Month long meta switch or just scum?

VOTE: Mala

Yeah you're blatantly lying again here to save your skin. The first two posts here are clearly positioned from a POV where Mala was potential town even if you were uncertain. Then when you decide Mala is the best elimination your vote suddenly goes there. You weren't scumhunting - you were just positioning yourself for the easiest vote.

[MalcolmTucker]

How about this Malcolm.

Just about everything I do, the large majority, most of what I do, Malcolm interprets as scum motivated with a scum agenda.

Again you do this thing constantly where you shade other players for scumreading you when they make fair points to make them look inherently unreasonable, tunnelled or biased instead of actually engaging with the point they're making, because when your play is assessed it's likely that you are scum.

The goal of mafia is to find scum. Part of that involves looking at players and uncovering reasons as to why they could potentially come back as scum. When you suspect a player as scum it's therefore natural you're going to find the motivations behind their play as scummy. This exact argument could apply to your read of me, no? Unless your read on me isn't actually that concrete because you fundamentally know I'm town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yo nancy if you're town, we just don't pay nicely together. You don't understand me, I don't understand you, and we're both getting scummy reads from it. Let's just back off each other ok? I read your past town games and you focus so hard on anyone who thinks you're scum that I know I'm walking into a town death land mine discussing anything with you. How about I point out stuff I find strange about you, you point out stuff you find strange about me, and we let other people sort us out? Deal?

This feels like an odd post. It's as if Rad wants to back off from earlier Puppets reads/interactions a bit but wants to articulate a reason for doing so that seems overly townie on the off-chance anyone calls them out about it.

Malcolm, do you feel like you might read into things too much? Just curious if you've run through that sort of introspection. Cause town!Malcolm is reading into it too much and just inherently disbelieving me at every turn. I couldn't help but read you scummy for it before until I got a chance to read your ISO and see how consistent you are with it.

lol DP is so fucking aggro.

town!Rad is pointing out that town!Malcolm is overthinking things, because that's literally the case if Malcolm is town.

Could scum!Rad be trying to AtE town!Malcolm? Sure.

Could town!Rad be missing scum!Malcolm pushing more shade? Sure.

I think it's town!Malcolm here and I'm trying to reason with him. Fucking vote me if you think I'm scum already.

lol DP is so fucking aggro.

town!Rad is pointing out that town!Malcolm is overthinking things, because that's literally the case if Malcolm is town.

Could scum!Rad be trying to AtE town!Malcolm? Sure.

Could town!Rad be missing scum!Malcolm pushing more shade? Sure.

I think it's town!Malcolm here and I'm trying to reason with him. Fucking vote me if you think I'm scum already.

Again this feels like a post where you're just frustrated at being suspected because until now you'd been widely TR'd. DP is correctly pointing out that criticising a player for overthinking things is an odd approach to take when playing mafia.

I've not voted for you because I'm personally more confident on Johnny coming back as scum and because Johnny is a more viable wagon - I doubt people would be willing to vote you out and no point in starting a complete vanity wagon at this point in the day.

Dude I'm not criticizing you. I'm pointing out what town!Malcolm is doing right now. Assume I'm town!Rad for a moment instead of some sneaky scum!Rad. Is that not what town!Rad's doing?

This has been Rad's approach for most of the game so far. Whenever suspicion is directed towards them they immediately start trying to pad it off by suggesting the person scumreading them is looking into things too much instead of actually engaging with the argument being put forward. This, again, ignores that town is uninformed and part of the game is coming up with theories and reasons as to why other players could be scum. The point Rad is making could literally be put to any townie who is coming up with reads and views while being uninformed.

Note how Rad TR's me at this point as well. My play since then hasn't changed substantially but Rad gradually altered their read of me because it was more convenient to scumread someone suspecting them in case it ended up being helpful down the line. Rad knows I'm not scum here and so initially wants to bargain with me and convince me I'm misguided town; when that doesn't work their approach grows more confrontational.

They floated this in earlier turns with players like Luke and Pooky - Rad wouldn't outright suspect either because both slots are obvious town but they'd always throw in little "what if" suggestions on the off-chance some townies might buy it. Rad's team eliminated Luke because they perceived Luke as a threat and now Rad is working to get rid of another townie who thinks they are scum. This is just so painfully transparent at this point and the town shouldn't fall for it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well we can hang out together on the malcolm wagon and mala can check his dead red corpse tonight to tell us what he was

Math's interactions with/about Mala:

2313 - Math just points out corwin's push on frog and asks if it was ever explained
2459 - responds to some joke mala said
2468 - Mala with some NAI claim that math could be scum cause he was scum a couple times before in a replace and Math responding seriously to it
2480 - More nonsense argument about something that's NAI
2570 - friendly banter
3516 - Mala calling BBT a baddie and Math pretending to be angered by it
3540 - Math urges Mala to make a case on Taly instead of Mala just talking about maybe voting Taly (which is actually townie of Math so he should say this regardless of mala's alignment to look townie)
3684 - If Mala flips red, this is Math pushing distance between Corwin and Mala claiming Corwin is attacking both Frog and Mala.
5359 - Calls Mala probably town
5363 - Wants people to vote one of Mala, Frog, Taly, Dunn. He pushes this for a while.

So my takeaway:

- Mostly just NAI banter and soft interactions
- No hard pushing on or supporting of Mala. The push on 4 people later includes Mala because Mala's a top wagon.
- Nothing that jumps out as clearing Mala, and nothing jumps out as damning Mala either

yeah fuck it. Month long meta switch or just scum?

VOTE: Mala

Yeah you're blatantly lying again here to save your skin. The first two posts here are clearly positioned from a POV where Mala was potential town even if you were uncertain. Then when you decide Mala is the best elimination your vote suddenly goes there. You weren't scumhunting - you were just positioning yourself for the easiest vote.

11956 is the main reason I pushed the mala wagin

It's a clever post and works well as a potential case for Mala - only we know Mala was not scum, so in retrospect why should I not believe this was constructed by scum to find a reason to vote out Mala? Scum who felt Mala was a good elimination would want to find a reason to justify why they have gone onto a wagon that was going to end up being town. The goal of scum is to convince town they are townie and a well thought-out case that ends up being wrong is something that can come from a scum MO.

[MalcolmTucker]

How about this Malcolm.

Just about everything I do, the large majority, most of what I do, Malcolm interprets as scum motivated with a scum agenda.

Again you do this thing constantly where you shade other players for scumreading you when they make fair points to make them look inherently unreasonable, tunnelled or biased instead of actually engaging with the point they're making, because when your play is assessed it's likely that you are scum.

The goal of mafia is to find scum. Part of that involves looking at players and uncovering reasons as to why they could potentially come back as scum. When you suspect a player as scum it's therefore natural you're going to find the motivations behind their play as scummy. This exact argument could apply to your read of me, no? Unless your read on me isn't actually that concrete because you fundamentally know I'm town.

Malcolm, consider I'm town rad here a moment and I'll speak to you like you're town Malcolm, k?

Everything you're saying about me is wrong. Nothing I'm doing is scum motivated. And most of your reads on me focus on me being scum with scum motivation.

That's not town rad shading you, that's town rad pointing out that you're wrong because you are. You take just about every action and apply the scum angle to it. It's so consistent that it's maddening. Again you're either conf biased town here or scum, there's no other option from my perspective.

Again though this could apply to literally any player in the game. Scum lie, that is literally the point.

From my POV as a townie my town neighbour who strongly TR'd me has died and the main counter to my wagon (being town) is someone I have suspected for most of the game and who had the perfect motive to eliminate Luke.

Your argument here that we could still both be town looks like a hint towards a compromise elimination, but there are a couple of problems with that solution:

1. It's literally what we did last turn and we were wrong.
2. You are aggressively pushing for my elimination anyway.

Why am I expected to be reasonable and townread you simply on your word when you consistently push for me to be eliminated from the game?

Consider you're willing to compromise on someone else here - where do you plan to vote? And if you're still willing to consider me as biased town, why aren't you pushing anywhere else? To me the answer is quite simple - you're scum and I'm the most viable elimination so you're going for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think wagon dynamics today strongly suggest one of Malcolm or Mala is scum.
~Cytosine

What changed from this?

Nothing changed so much as the thought expressed was incomplete. I limited it to two names for tactical reasons, but Rad was also a major contender for the elimination and equally implicated by wagon dynamics. I would be surprised if {Mala, Malcolm, Rad} did not have a scum.
~Cytosine

Consider the positioning on Mala's wagon last turn.

I was a major candidate for elimination but never pushed Mala all that strongly even though it'd have been in my interests to do so as scum. Because despite some uncertainty I was never all that convinced Mala was scum and didn't want to deceive the town by fabricating a case on them even though I was willing to fight for my place in the game.

Rad was initially uncertain on the slot but then came up with a convenient argument as to why Mala was scum which we now know in retrospect was wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well we can hang out together on the malcolm wagon and mala can check his dead red corpse tonight to tell us what he was

Math's interactions with/about Mala:

2313 - Math just points out corwin's push on frog and asks if it was ever explained
2459 - responds to some joke mala said
2468 - Mala with some NAI claim that math could be scum cause he was scum a couple times before in a replace and Math responding seriously to it
2480 - More nonsense argument about something that's NAI
2570 - friendly banter
3516 - Mala calling BBT a baddie and Math pretending to be angered by it
3540 - Math urges Mala to make a case on Taly instead of Mala just talking about maybe voting Taly (which is actually townie of Math so he should say this regardless of mala's alignment to look townie)
3684 - If Mala flips red, this is Math pushing distance between Corwin and Mala claiming Corwin is attacking both Frog and Mala.
5359 - Calls Mala probably town
5363 - Wants people to vote one of Mala, Frog, Taly, Dunn. He pushes this for a while.

So my takeaway:

- Mostly just NAI banter and soft interactions
- No hard pushing on or supporting of Mala. The push on 4 people later includes Mala because Mala's a top wagon.
- Nothing that jumps out as clearing Mala, and nothing jumps out as damning Mala either

yeah fuck it. Month long meta switch or just scum?

VOTE: Mala

Yeah you're blatantly lying again here to save your skin. The first two posts here are clearly positioned from a POV where Mala was potential town even if you were uncertain. Then when you decide Mala is the best elimination your vote suddenly goes there. You weren't scumhunting - you were just positioning yourself for the easiest vote.

11956 is the main reason I pushed the mala wagin

It's a clever post and works well as a potential case for Mala - only we know Mala was not scum, so in retrospect why should I not believe this was constructed by scum to find a reason to vote out Mala? Scum who felt Mala was a good elimination would want to find a reason to justify why they have gone onto a wagon that was going to end up being town. The goal of scum is to convince town they are townie and a well thought-out case that ends up being wrong is something that can come from a scum MO.

I dunno, maybe you could attempt to apply a town angle on something I've done instead of just assume it's scum motivated?

Can you fathom this post and thought process coming from town!Rad?

I've outlined above why this is a flawed argument, and anyway it's a complete and utter lie - I've TR'd you at various points in the game. And anyway, why don't you apply the same leeway to me when you expect it for yourself?

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Dunn is town so far. I agree with them that the early wagon on Cephir isn't particularly useful, and I'm not sure I like how quickly a lot of votes mounted up on said wagon, jokey or not.

I reckon Luke and Rad is probably TvT. I don't agree with Rad on the read but they are making a genuine effort to solve early on even if their conclusions aren't necessarily correct. Attempts to drive the game forward earn townpoints from me and Luke doesn't strike me as the type of player to go after if you're scum wanting to appear busy.

I'm not convinced Frogster is town though, potential scum slot.

My strong TR on Rad from earlier in the game has softened significantly. Perhaps it's due to my SR on Dancing Puppets softening as the game goes on, but I thought Rad's post there was particularly weak.

I understand there's not always a clear direction of thought registered in the thread when your take on a player shifts, but Rad's game for me has largely been logic-driven to a degree and it's interesting they got very defensive when they were unable to point out exactly why they were scumreading Puppets.

In general I don't think Rad's posts over the past couple of days have been as strong as they were initially.

Spoiler:

How come all of the leading wagons in this game are really bad?

scum are either strong players or lurking imo

If ceph flips scum, this becomes a funny post lol

I feel like it's also the type of post that can quite feasibly come from good/experienced scum? A lot of the time you assume scum maybe don't want to draw any attention to what the makeup of their team could be, but in a big game like this making associatives can be hard and I can see scum being more willingly to openly comment on what the scumteam may be like, even if only to misdirect.

I think this is a clever take. Nice.

Pooky I got some updates:

Frogster => Town
Malcolm => Town
Corwin => Scum
OTH => Null

I can see why wagons sprung up, because you would expect someone who clearly has a reputation for being decent at this game to be a leader here, but this game is hard and I don't have much direction either. Yes this could be faked and they're clearly self aware, but i'm tempted to call this slot town.

My problem with Ceph right now is his post 929 where he claims he hasn't even started playing yet.

When will Ceph start playing? Has he started now? Why hadn't he started then?

Clearly Ceph isn't going to be a town leader. By choice. Is that scummy? I dunno but it feels anti-town, as does his post about me at 1493

Good stuff from Malcolm.

Bad stuff from Johnny.

Really? I was thinking the opposite.

What do you think of Ceph's 2301? I feel sort of convinced by it.

Good stuff from Malcolm.

Bad stuff from Johnny.

Really? I was thinking the opposite.

What do you think of Ceph's 2301? I feel sort of convinced by it.

What do you find particularly convincing? Worth noting my suspicion of Roden didn't come out of nowhere - I'd already been a bit unsure on the slot but their responses to Toad made me feel more confident they could be scum.

The whole post. All his points. Like, not convincing enough to move you from town to scum and vote you right here, but enough to make me want to reread your ISO (which I'll do when I get a chance, either tonight or tomorrow... going to a concert tonight so it'll be late if I do get a chance).

Some comments I wrote up while catching up.

Re 2368 Johnny - I'd not noticed Frog's posts you're referring to. Understandable reason to leave a SR alone for a while, I get that.

It's also AtE from Johnny to get players off his back.

How was it AtE? Genuinely not seeing it.

Johnny is well within his right to play this way if he would like to, I just believe it makes him a good candidate to get booted off the island first.

Ok but how does that make him scum?

Me, lukie, the Marci hydra, bbt, maybe pengy (even tho he’s evil and stole my PURRfect page top)

Got it, so whoever reads you as town is most likely not scum. Cause town reads are so reliable. Makes sense.

Bro

I was kidding about talking to the dead

Lmafo

I’m just unhappy I’m not Juliet

Also I have given some reads.

SO YOUR ATTITUDE CAN TAKE A HIKE OK

Yoooo Mala claim town readers, wtf now?

Re Rad, who I mentioned above I'm softening on TR wise, some of their progressions here I'm not keen on - it feels a bit unnatural and as if their view of certain players flipped entirely without much justification.

For a while they seemed to be agreeing with some of my points and had me down as town. At the same time they were largely scumreading Cephrir and didn't appear to particularly trust the slot. But it didn't take much for them to suddenly agree with Cephrir's scumread of me which led them to doing a bit of a 180.

There'd been some disagreements between Ceph/Roden on Saturday but that faded away a bit once Ceph turned their attention to me - Rad's sudden turn from suspecting Ceph to suspecting me doesn't feel particularly natural and strikes me as somewhat coordinated in light of that, as if they decided I was suddenly a better target from the POV of being scum as my reads developed.

Rad is regularly suggesting I have done nothing but scumread them all game but you only need to look at the early game to know this is a lie.

Rad was one of my strongest TR's for a lot of D1. But as I allude to in the posts above I became less confident of them as town as time went on. I think the evolution of my read here is perfectly natural to be honest. But either way know that when Rad says I am being unreasonable and I'm hyperfixated on the slot it's just a complete lie.

Even when I started to suspect Rad I still voted for Johnny, because Johnny was my primary scumread at the time.

[MalcolmTucker]

How about this Malcolm.

Just about everything I do, the large majority, most of what I do, Malcolm interprets as scum motivated with a scum agenda.

Again you do this thing constantly where you shade other players for scumreading you when they make fair points to make them look inherently unreasonable, tunnelled or biased instead of actually engaging with the point they're making, because when your play is assessed it's likely that you are scum.

The goal of mafia is to find scum. Part of that involves looking at players and uncovering reasons as to why they could potentially come back as scum. When you suspect a player as scum it's therefore natural you're going to find the motivations behind their play as scummy. This exact argument could apply to your read of me, no? Unless your read on me isn't actually that concrete because you fundamentally know I'm town.

Malcolm, consider I'm town rad here a moment and I'll speak to you like you're town Malcolm, k?

Everything you're saying about me is wrong. Nothing I'm doing is scum motivated. And most of your reads on me focus on me being scum with scum motivation.

That's not town rad shading you, that's town rad pointing out that you're wrong because you are. You take just about every action and apply the scum angle to it. It's so consistent that it's maddening. Again you're either conf biased town here or scum, there's no other option from my perspective.

Again though this could apply to literally any player in the game. Scum lie, that is literally the point.

From my POV as a townie my town neighbour who strongly TR'd me has died and the main counter to my wagon (being town) is someone I have suspected for most of the game and who had the perfect motive to eliminate Luke.

Your argument here that we could still both be town looks like a hint towards a compromise elimination, but there are a couple of problems with that solution:

1. It's literally what we did last turn and we were wrong.
2. You are aggressively pushing for my elimination anyway.

Why am I expected to be reasonable and townread you simply on your word when you consistently push for me to be eliminated from the game?

Consider you're willing to compromise on someone else here - where do you plan to vote? And if you're still willing to consider me as biased town, why aren't you pushing anywhere else? To me the answer is quite simple - you're scum and I'm the most viable elimination so you're going for me.

Nono, I don't mean "let's just TR each other from now on", I meant for the sake of understanding why I might be coming across as shading you left and right, consider everything that's gone on as from town!Rad's perspective. Everything you've said about me and my actions, consider why town!Rad might have issue with that.

Okay but I know I am town and from that POV you are relentlessly pushing for my elimination. You ask me to be less fixated on trying to eliminate your slot but the reality is you are no less determined to vote me out - you may hint at being more uncertain but what matters is where you vote and your vote appears to be locked in on me. Given I am town there is little reason for me to see this as anything other than scum motivated for reasons I have outlined repeatedly unless you genuinely believe we both could still be town. The problem with the town Rad argument here is that it just doesn't work - if you think I am scum, why are you posting in a way which is intended to convince me otherwise? If I'm scum it surely wouldn't matter?

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think it's a bad take at all.

The way Malcolm describes my play is heavily descriptive on the scum!Rad side. I'm the sneaky snake scum and every single thing I do can be explained by some sneaky snake scum motivation. Read through Malcolm's content about me and tell me it doesn't read like a fucking mystery novel describing events in detail that assumes my scummy emotions at every turn.

I haven't concluded why he's approaching his cases about me like this, but I think it's probably 1 of 2 options.

1. town!Malcolm is conf biased as fuck and can only view my actions through the Rad Is Scum FOR SURE lense.

2. scum!Malcolm is bloating his cases on me with all the nonsense that Mislim Bait has spotted.

My scumread on you has weakened on the basis of your recent posting, feel like it's a lot more townie and to be honest it's possible I was tunnelled when a few of your posts pinged me as potential mafia.

But I don't think there was anything wrong with the read in itself. The point of this game is to theorise players and either come up with reasons for them being town or mafia. When I don't have decisive reads I'm often accused of being hedgy. When I do come up with a decisive read (typically once the game is more developed) I'm accused of being too tunnelled or too hyper-focused on one player. It's just an easy way to bat off accusations.

Here's another example of when my read on Rad evolved back to them likely being town. Again this false idea I have been completely hyperfocused on the slot and this idea I'm trying to twist anything they do into being scum motivated is a complete lie. I have consistently shown a willingness to reevaluate slots in the game including Rad when new info comes to light or when they post in a way I like or dislike.

[MalcolmTucker]

What was one of the first things Luke talked about to Malcolm?

He doesn't have access any longer, but he is almost certain the the first posts were asking whether or not Malcolm had seen Lost and stating he hoped Malcolm was town because he didn't relish the thought of spending the game with scum in a PT.

Not sure how this helps you, but there you go.

Hey Malcolm...can you confirm this? And also that after Luke made this post:

Am looking for my Dad

VOTE: Pooky

Father?

So as I have just been laying here thinking about this game, I realized that if I leave this as is, since we don't actually flip in this game it might actually cause issues if I die night 1.

I don't actually need to find my dad.

That's all I really want to say on the matter

he told you it was his gift to you, you responded that you were confused, and he explained that he made that post because if he died N1 he hadn't claimed and he didn't want you to have any issues due to your flavor?

Yep I've not seen Lost hence I forgot that detail - my flavour is Michael, Luke's was Walt.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm often unsure on how much we can say from neighbourhoods since we can't copy posts, but for anyone interested in Luke's final reads, they had Rad, RC, CSF, Best Bird, Johnny and Enchant in the last scum pool they posted in the hood.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re Luke in general - looking back through our hood, another reason he presented for me being town (can't remember if he did this in the main thread) was me being presented as a counterwagon to Math. My progression on Math was pretty solid anyway and I don't think it was scummy but useful for any avoidance of doubt for those on the fence.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think it’s obvious Malcom flips wolf and I think it’s Obvious Rad is never with them.

I dunno.

I don't think I could pull off either side of this recent back and forth as scum.

I don't think Malcolm necessarily flips scum here.

UNVOTE:

The reason I keep going back to Malcolm is because I have absolutely no idea of who else could be scum beyond some wifom based bs ideas. scum!Malcolm makes sense to me specifically because he's so fucking relentless and constantly wrong about my actions, but maybe that makes him town.

Is there anyone else on the Malcolm wagon that truly believes Malcolm's scum besides Drap?

Or are most of you on there because you're just choosing Rad over Malcolm?

This is one of the big issues I have with my wagon and it's something I've alluded to before - I'm a common lazy/easy elimination target when town is unsure where to go and wants to consolidate somewhere. I've yet to actually see a proper case for why I'm really scum from most players. While I think you're scum you at least actually do have a read on me, whether it's to save your own skin or not, a number of others don't.

[MalcolmTucker]

The one thing that's making me doubt Rad ever so slightly (and it is very, very slight) is the fact that the game has gone largely silent since our back and forth came to an end. If Rad is somehow town then it'd indicate to me scum are rather settled with the current state of play and want to see us fight it out instead of losing one of their own.

[MalcolmTucker]

I tend to try and stay relatively calm during games but will be immensely frustrated if my elimination as town here is partially caused by scum basically annoying some townies into giving them another day. I am not scum here and I've presented what I think is a solid and robust case as to why I'm not.

What even is the actual case against me anyway? For the most part beyond one or two people who genuinely suspect me I feel as if it boils down to vibes since I'm not officially cleared yet. It feels a bit like the recurring case against BBT earlier in the game - when it came to actually presenting proper evidence for why BBT was scum nobody was really able to do so.

Malcolm here ignores the valid reasons to scumread him and is reductive of the case. He hasn't really engaged with CSF's reasoning about how his read progression on Johnny is inconsistent, and now he is acting as if there aren't any reasons to scumread him.

I have engaged with this and I believe CSF's case re Johnny is fairly inaccurate. What's my motivation to sort Johnny as town if I'm scum anyway? It'd have been a useful place for me to continue pushing along with Rad given there's been pressure remaining on that slot if I was scum, no?

[MalcolmTucker]

I would rather vote Malcolm than Rad if it came down to that, but for now:

VOTE: Johnny

2 reasons.

1)He was an obvious ML like Day 3 and he would have went over if it wasn’t for my amazing Bella check.
2)Pretty sure T-Bone claimed Doctor to him like a previous night but it was Luke who died over him.


^ again this indicates it can be Malcolm but BB still refuses to say what Luke has said in regards to Malcolm or even me.

Ok

VOTE: Malcolm

I'm forgetting but was Furtive's slot confirmed town before he replaced in? Because this is probably the vote I like the least on the wagon in terms of opportunism.

[MalcolmTucker]

was Furtive's slot confirmed town before he replaced in?

No
He replaced RCE who replaced The toad.
Roden and butterchurn are the Masons.

I'd largely ignored RC but is it worth looking at Furtive? As I say their vote on me looks like the most opportunistic on the wagon. Initially votes elsewhere but consolidates on me once it becomes apparent it's the easiest vote to push through.

[MalcolmTucker]

It's funny that people think Johnny is townier than Rad and Malcolm.

If they're both town, which seems likely, it's no wonder there is no noise anywhere else.

I do reckon Johnny is town but this is what's making me double-take re Rad. After our back and forth yesterday discussion almost completely ceased for a while. I don't necessarily agree with Rad's conclusion Roden/Butter are actually scum but I see where the inherent logic is coming from - the rapid activity from early doors has died down and some players seem a lot more settled with the current gamestate.

[MalcolmTucker]

I have engaged with this and I believe CSF's case re Johnny is fairly inaccurate. What's my motivation to sort Johnny as town if I'm scum anyway? It'd have been a useful place for me to continue pushing along with Rad given there's been pressure remaining on that slot if I was scum, no?

What is inaccurate about 13392?

I felt your claim my read on Johnny had evolved weakly or was inconsistent was inaccurate.

I've stated myself I didn't really think Mala was likely to be scum but I maintain they were a better vote than Johnny would have been - Johnny's posts had improved for me and I'll admit that was partially due to us mindmelding. I'll admit there's always a chance Johnny could be pocketing me but that seems unlikely because from my POV as town that'd involve them in all likelihood openly scumreading scum partners all to pocket a player who's been a prime elimination candidate for the past two turns.

Either way, where's the scum motive in my changed read on Johnny? It's surely a useful slot for scum Malcolm to keep pushing, no? My posts may not offer the clarity you want but I've been pretty open that my early read on Johnny was probably a partial misread based on their tone, once I got used to that tone and evaluated that slot again I began to see how they approached the game as really townie. The only motive here is surely if I'm partnered with Johnny but that seems infeasible from a scum POV - remember early in the game I was openly advocating for Johnny's elimination even when Math (I think it was Math) was trying to get us to settle on some other players.

I feel like your read on me is less based in the conviction I'm actually scum and is more centred around the fact you dislike how I've articulated my progression on another player you've scumread. But there's a world where I can be wrong and Johnny and you're right without me being scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

It's funny that people think Johnny is townier than Rad and Malcolm.

If they're both town, which seems likely, it's no wonder there is no noise anywhere else.

Do you think all the wagons we ran up yesterday were on town? I think it's unlikely, no?

All wagons we ran up in D1 were on town. Someone said that was unlikely then, too, if I remember right.

Why couldn't it be the same here?

We've already hit two scum as well so the gamestate in general is pretty town-heavy at the moment too.

[MalcolmTucker]

6. Now he's saying something vague like Johnny is town because of interactions with flipped scum. Why??? What interactions???? And why do I consistently find it easier to remember Malcolm's own reads than he does???

I'll follow this up by saying it's easy to forget some small things in a 500+ game with 26p.

It's NOT as easy for town to forget why your scumread on someone changed to a townread. That's what made the progression feel made up.

I scumread you because you've forgotten the reason why you began townreading Johnny, which makes that read look unnatural

please take another look at 13392 because my read is not really conditioned on a Johnny scumread. Although i kind of still think he is scum

I disagree with this. The primary reason was after Bella was eliminated it looked like it was unlikely they were teammates. Later in the game I confused Johnny's dynamics with Bella with their dynamics with Math since both were scum. Once I looked at Johnny through the lens of more likely to be town I started reading their tone and approach differently.

[MalcolmTucker]

The problem for me right now is that my townreads + my townreads's townreads = pretty much the whole lobby.

+1

I understand but fwiw, I think (in no particular order) that you, Pooky, OtH, masons, Yeet, BBT, BB are all likely town here, so my conundrum is who does that leave?

Fyi, if this behaviour is ever from scum!Pooky, it’s a new gambit because pretty sure this is much > rand something town!Pooky would do if he’s being wrongly sussed.

If anyone has meta to contradict this, feel free to demonstrate that but to the best of my knowledge, I don’t believe there is.

~Nancyfly

Pooky may be the towniest player in the game based on play alone.

[MalcolmTucker]

Does anyone have all the current claims noted down? Embarrassing as this is, I'm not sure who claimed Masons, all I know is that they're kind of a consensus scumread.

Butter and Roden claimed masons.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've been quietly sussing Pooky for a bit now, I was slightly hesitant to raise it because I know butterflies is hard townreading Pooky and I know what they can get like, and so is Rad and apparently half the lobby.

1) They suggested Rad/Malcolm was scum/scum which has been practically impossible for a few days now (13718)

2) They keep switching their vote when the mood feels like the energy is dying on a wagon. The first time I noticed this was 13657 - Rad to Malcolm, reason given is "I'm bored and you're annoying". Then there's 13734 - back to Rad, reason given is "I guess I can go back to this". Then the latest thing is 13800, over to Johnny, reason is "Rad has cried enough".

3) 2-shot Cop is a weird role to be in a game like this. It doesn't seem balanced for a game like this, and checking 2 now dead town, who didn't seem likely to be eliminated, with the reason of 'paranoia' feels really convenient.

4) Pooky is guilty of hypocrisy regarding ProfessorDrapion. 13222 is a good example of this, Pooky is also an investigative, and hasn't been killed.

Anyway this is my current big sus.

VOTE: Pooky

You should probably go back and reread the interactions with Math, I do believe there's some elaborate scum theatre likely going on somewhere in this game but I don't think that comes from two scum teammates. I get jumping into a game and having to suss players out can be tough and it's not inherently bad you're trying to think outside the box if you're town (big if right enough) but Pooky is like 99.9999% town here I think.

[MalcolmTucker]

She said that it's suspicious because you forgot your reason for townreading them. You say you disagree with this, and say that actually you misremembered your reason for townreading them? What exactly is the disagreement, then?

I have multiple reasons for townreading Johnny. The most fundamental one which shifted my view was Johnny's interactions with known scum. I confused those interactions as being with Math instead of Bella in a huge game that now has hundreds upon hundreds of pages.

Again, nobody has particularly answered this - what is the reason for me shifting my read on Johnny from scum to town if I am indeed scum myself? It's a perfectly viable slot for me to continue pushing if I'm scum because attention is still there. Again, like with CSF I think you're confusing my own momentary confusion - which is natural in a game this long - as scummy, when I don't think it's scum indicative at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

malcolm trying to keep me from escaping the island is very scummy i just want to go home

Disagree, from my POV you're right on Rad and some of your solves have been strong. If you're engaged in the game you're still surely an asset for town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Do we think Furtive's push on Pooky comes from scum? I said earlier Furtive was the weakest vote on my wagon and it's feasible they could begin looking elsewhere to avoid drawing attention to themselves as having fairly weak reads. By the same token though bit of a bold move...not a slot likely to get eliminated for most of today and if Rad somehow isn't scum here no reason for Furtive to throw things into jeopardy. Unless they're teammates I guess in which case I dunno the angle.

[MalcolmTucker]

There's like 0 chance of pooky wagon going anywhere.

You don't want to lose town!Pooky here anyway. You want to lose town!rad cause that will improve town's chance of winning. Only 2 people have openly claimed they will read me town at endgame. I'm the endgame mislim waiting to happen.

I will escape this island before you pooky. You must stay and suffer.

I really can't figure out if this is a gambit where you want to make yourself look more townie because I'm going to be eliminated and you don't want to appear as obvious scum next turn, or if it's genuine. I'm not sure you necessarily need to do this to assert yourself as townie this turn, which had me leaning more town on you, but thinking ahead I get why you'd consider the approach if you're confident you won't be voted out.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like Rad's play right now does not feel like scumplay at first glance but from my read of them they've been involved in a lot of self-preservation over the past couple of turns. The Mala wagon was convenient and worked well from a scum POV and Rad was instrumental in said wagon.

But by the same token a scum Rad knows I am town and therefore knows if I'm eliminated this turn they're toast. The only way to try and save face is then surely to do something that doesn't look scummy at all, no? But it still feels overly bold, overly ambitious.

I'm remembering back to the last turn when Rad didn't find Mala's self-vote townie and instead read it as scummy, and that's interesting. Is Rad's willingness to do this an indication it's a scum tactic they like and will employ to win over sympathy? Or is it again too bold for them to attempt this one turn after they criticised someone else for doing it?

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm, consider me town for a moment. Is there a better endgame mislim in this game than town!rad?

Probably not, no. I guess the same could be said for me - barring some absolutely wild scum theatre if you come back scum then I'm clearly town, and the same would be true if I were hypothetically scum, which I know I'm not.

I've been willing to accept myself as the solvey town day elimination in the past and have taken it for the team but find myself instinctively less willing to do so this time - I dunno, maybe it's just because I'm actually starting to enjoy this game and I'm enjoying trying to solve, but I'd rather not lie down and just accept elimination knowing I'm town personally.

[MalcolmTucker]

Listen to Malcolm, I'm scum and everyone needs to vote me out immediately

For what it's worth I am genuinely more on the fence because of your approach here than I have been for a while.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm if you got fight in you then keep it up. I do not. I'm spending all my time defending myself and most of my ideas here are silly wifom bs that people scum read me for. Bell scum read me, Luke scum read me, if you're town and we flip you I'm even more a liability and I bet I wouldn't even die tomorrow if you flip town today. I'll die at endgame with town. This isn't even me complaining here, this is me recognizing the correct move for town.

I agree we probably need to be solved to some degree here.

My wariness comes from a world where we're both town and scum are lapping up this scenario.

But if this is somehow not a scum gambit from you and you're town I think the votes on you would be quite informative. I TR BBT anyway for example but the vote above is incredibly townie - I don't think scum just boldly vote for someone they've TR'd in the thread to get an easy elimination, especially when I'm town as well and still viable to a degree. In a world where you're town along with me I think scum are extremely careful here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Push harder bb, I can't even get the rad wagon to happen but I'll happily hammer myself if you can pull it off.

Because there's still a bit of time till the turn is gone and naturally the town is unlikely to eliminate someone right away. If you're scum then your gambit has potentially worked here by making people less likely to vote for you. Certainly it was the main driver of my doubt yesterday.

[MalcolmTucker]

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game.

I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who do you specifically think doesn't want you gone and why do you think they want to keep you in the game? In this scenario it'd suggest all the counterwagons to you are town, no? Otherwise scum would surely prefer to see you eliminated, even if they're careful about how they go about it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Push harder bb, I can't even get the rad wagon to happen but I'll happily hammer myself if you can pull it off.

Because there's still a bit of time till the turn is gone and naturally the town is unlikely to eliminate someone right away. If you're scum then your gambit has potentially worked here by making people less likely to vote for you. Certainly it was the main driver of my doubt yesterday.

Nobody wants this day to go for its full length. It's anti-town to push for that, tbh. Townies are going to continue to get more and more frustrated and apathetic the more we spin wheels here and delay.

I'm happy to end it soon but would also rather not rush it too if anyone is unsure. Apathy is a choice and all that after all, we've had some relatively quickish turns post the marathon that was D1 and seems natural one would come along where we'd get bogged down.

You'll also surely see that when someone starts openly advocating for their own elimination it typically makes the town more reluctant to follow through. It's a bold tactic but could hypothetically be working here.

[MalcolmTucker]

We have over 6 days left. Can we get a consensus wagon anywhere else?

Malcolm and Rad feel town, enough people seem to think Johnny is town that I'll concede that one.

How about Yeet? Virtually non-existent since replacing in?

Can someone concisely explain why Malcolm or Rad are scum please? Nice, short paragraph will do.

The consensus on that slot seems to be town since Math didn't seem bothered about who was voted out during the gladiate but I'm not too confident on the slot - as I've said there's likely been some scum theatre somewhere and if Math gauged Taly was the initial likely elimination (or vice versa) then I don't think it's impossible the slot is scum. I felt like Taly was asking a lot of questions to look busy without doing much before they replaced out, and like you say Yeet has been non-existent in the game since replacing in. Feel like more pressure needs to go here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Agree with BB's compilation post above.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm thinking anyone but Rad.

VOTE: CatScratchFever

CSF has also claimed.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well done town, good game that. Thought we did well to push it until near the end but early solves game town a massive advantage, did well to avoid imploding and keep solving in the right areas.

[MalcolmTucker]

As I said in the dead thread I really thought Taly/Nora was making it to the end, I managed to make myself look more scummy when I briefly put a little bit of pressure on the slot. Thought we managed to play the end of D1 well as scum, even if it was partially accidental on my part. Once that slot was gone I think that was it, solid effort from OTH toward the end but probably too many avenues to get caught.

[MalcolmTucker]

This is the longest game in MS history I believe.

Glad to be part of history.