Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[jonathantan86]

Thanks for all the unvotings.

Unvote

(My vote was on clock but now he's dead)

Let's count the scum tells:
1: not voting
2: opportunistic voting (jumping on SC and calling it random IS opportunistic)
3: appeasement (voting to make muffin happy
4: appeasement again (unvoting immediately after being questioned about voting SC)
5: illogical defense (calling the vote on SC random)
6: illogical defense again (saying he didn't want to start a wagon, when he was actually jumping on a wagon, not starting one)
7: illogical defense again (couldn't spell clock)

Just for the sake of clarification, I don't count 2 as a scumtell since I don't think he is "jumping" on SC. I posted that I don't consider illogical defence during RV a scumtell as well, but you may have a point that 5,6,7 are scumtells since he posted them *outside* the RV stage.

I don't think appeasement is a scumtell though...he might just have an important power role so he might not want to get involved in controversy. Having said that, he has just claimed that he is townie, so it *is* possible that 3,4 points towards him being scum.

There are good reasons to consider 1 a scumtell, yes.

If you consider all of that in context, thats an awfully big hole that MM dug himself. It seems quite obviou to me why everyone is jumping on MM. What I want to know is why are you defending MM and then turning around and saying you're suspisious of everyone on the MM wagon? How do you think this will make you look if MM IS scum?

I'm defending MM because I don't want a mislynch. Yes, I know what I would look like if MM is scum, but that doesn't mean that we should preserve our reputations at all costs.

Mafiamann looks very scummy indeed. Still, his meta is holding me back from the wagon for now, plus the fact I am in no hurry to end this day.

Um what is "his meta"?

[MafiaMann]

It does prove the guy that started the canpaign to lynch me was never pro town in the first place which might explain why he didnt care about lynching a protown role.

[curiouskarmadog]

well now that my number suspect has been killed, I am at a little loss...I saw a connection between SC and Clock, but I thinking after reading the title page that a predator is probably something like a SK, so a connection is meaningless...going to reread.

[Rhinox]

whoa... I wake up this morning and find this?

ok, bad news first. Someones bound to point out at some point that I was defending clock earlier. I am very disappointed that clock ended up being a predator, and I understand that I could take some heat for defending him. I was wrong, ecto's suspisions, it seems, were justified.

on to the good news... I don't believe that we have 2 scum groups. I think we have 1 scum group (the commandos) and the predators (sk types). I just don't see predators working together if they have to compete over food, from a flavor POV. From the start of the game I've just assumed that predators were SK's - we just don't know how many. I'm thinking now that there are (were) possibly 2 predators, 1 day sk and 1 night sk - just like there are day predators and night predators irl. Which means, I don't think ecto was doing any bussing of clock.

[wolframnhart]

Ah sorry sorry I here, lots going on and I realize i need to keep up.

I'm going to

unvote Mafiamann

for now due to the fact that it seems to have been scum driven since clock turned to be a predator. I still don't quite like Mafia's play so far, but for now I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Can you give any additional reasons as to why you think the wagon on MafiaMann is scum-driven?

Well the way I see it, I voted for mafiamann early on, due to his poor responses. I thought he had found scum, and when clock kept adding on it seemed like a really good case. Then a few people jumped on the mafia wagon (i can go into detail later on but right now this is just a quick post before work) and added to the argument. Then some got off the mafia wagon and clock turned into a predator that took out a replacement. Never even thought about predators myself, i was just worried about commandos, and now we have an SK type role too, and who knows how many there are in that group or in the commandos for that matter.

[Rhinox]

Never even thought about predators myself, i was just worried about commandos, and now we have an SK type role too, and who knows how many there are in that group or in the commandos for that matter.

Uh... Wolf?

As the sun rises over the Kalahari, the Whiskers family has a busy day ahead. It will be rough foraging for millipedes and scorpions while the desert sun beats down on the defenseless meerkats. Even worse,

the meerkats constantly have to be on the lookout for vicious predators as well as the evil Commandoes

, a rival mob intent on taking over the burrow! But the Whiskers are strong and resilient. Stay alert.

Rishi directly told us we had predators to deal with. Are you trying to make us think you didn't know about predators so you could hide the fact that you're a predator?

I also think Rishi hinted to us that something could happen during the day...

It will be rough foraging for millipedes and scorpions

while the desert sun beats down

on the

defenseless

meerkats.

But

the Whiskers are strong and resilient.

Stay alert.

This tells me that during the day, we will be defenseless to attacks. However, we're strong and resilient. Maybe that was a hint to clock that if he picked the wrong meerkat to mess with, he'd be toast.

[StrangerCoug]

Never even thought about predators myself, i was just worried about commandos, and now we have an SK type role too, and who knows how many there are in that group or in the commandos for that matter.

Uh... Wolf?

As the sun rises over the Kalahari, the Whiskers family has a busy day ahead. It will be rough foraging for millipedes and scorpions while the desert sun beats down on the defenseless meerkats. Even worse,

the meerkats constantly have to be on the lookout for vicious predators as well as the evil Commandoes

, a rival mob intent on taking over the burrow! But the Whiskers are strong and resilient. Stay alert.

Rishi directly told us we had predators to deal with. Are you trying to make us think you didn't know about predators so you could hide the fact that you're a predator?

I also think Rishi hinted to us that something could happen during the day...

It will be rough foraging for millipedes and scorpions

while the desert sun beats down

on the

defenseless

meerkats.

But

the Whiskers are strong and resilient.

Stay alert.

This tells me that during the day, we will be defenseless to attacks. However, we're strong and resilient. Maybe that was a hint to clock that if he picked the wrong meerkat to mess with, he'd be toast.

Nice catches.

[The Bored Woodsman]

Great, I come back to find I'm dead

Bah! This is why I never jump the gun on voting! But the kill may have been predetermined before i even joined, for all i know

[StrangerCoug]

Kills are not predetermined, but I'm sorry it happened. Good luck in your next game.

[wolframnhart]

Never even thought about predators myself, i was just worried about commandos, and now we have an SK type role too, and who knows how many there are in that group or in the commandos for that matter.

Uh... Wolf?

As the sun rises over the Kalahari, the Whiskers family has a busy day ahead. It will be rough foraging for millipedes and scorpions while the desert sun beats down on the defenseless meerkats. Even worse,

the meerkats constantly have to be on the lookout for vicious predators as well as the evil Commandoes

, a rival mob intent on taking over the burrow! But the Whiskers are strong and resilient. Stay alert.

Rishi directly told us we had predators to deal with. Are you trying to make us think you didn't know about predators so you could hide the fact that you're a predator?

I also think Rishi hinted to us that something could happen during the day...

It will be rough foraging for millipedes and scorpions

while the desert sun beats down

on the

defenseless

meerkats.

But

the Whiskers are strong and resilient.

Stay alert.

This tells me that during the day, we will be defenseless to attacks. However, we're strong and resilient. Maybe that was a hint to clock that if he picked the wrong meerkat to mess with, he'd be toast.

@Rhi
Yep, i completely miss took the quote by rishi. I thought there were just commandos that we had to look out for, and the part about the predators was just flavor, so my bad there.

[Ectomancer]

Thanks for all the unvotings.

Unvote

(My vote was on clock but now he's dead)

Let's count the scum tells:
1: not voting
2: opportunistic voting (jumping on SC and calling it random IS opportunistic)
3: appeasement (voting to make muffin happy
4: appeasement again (unvoting immediately after being questioned about voting SC)
5: illogical defense (calling the vote on SC random)
6: illogical defense again (saying he didn't want to start a wagon, when he was actually jumping on a wagon, not starting one)
7: illogical defense again (couldn't spell clock)

Just for the sake of clarification, I don't count 2 as a scumtell since I don't think he is "jumping" on SC. I posted that I don't consider illogical defence during RV a scumtell as well, but you may have a point that 5,6,7 are scumtells since he posted them *outside* the RV stage.

I don't think appeasement is a scumtell though...he might just have an important power role so he might not want to get involved in controversy. Having said that, he has just claimed that he is townie, so it *is* possible that 3,4 points towards him being scum.

There are good reasons to consider 1 a scumtell, yes.

If you consider all of that in context, thats an awfully big hole that MM dug himself. It seems quite obviou to me why everyone is jumping on MM. What I want to know is why are you defending MM and then turning around and saying you're suspisious of everyone on the MM wagon? How do you think this will make you look if MM IS scum?

I'm defending MM because I don't want a mislynch. Yes, I know what I would look like if MM is scum, but that doesn't mean that we should preserve our reputations at all costs.

Mafiamann looks very scummy indeed. Still, his meta is holding me back from the wagon for now, plus the fact I am in no hurry to end this day.

Um what is "his meta"?

I dont recall making these statements and I'm not on

heavy

drugs...so....

[wolframnhart]

Nice catch there Ecto, i didn't even think that he had the person quoted wrong.

[Rhinox]

Thanks for all the unvotings.

Unvote

(My vote was on clock but now he's dead)

Let's count the scum tells:
1: not voting
2: opportunistic voting (jumping on SC and calling it random IS opportunistic)
3: appeasement (voting to make muffin happy
4: appeasement again (unvoting immediately after being questioned about voting SC)
5: illogical defense (calling the vote on SC random)
6: illogical defense again (saying he didn't want to start a wagon, when he was actually jumping on a wagon, not starting one)
7: illogical defense again (couldn't spell clock)

Just for the sake of clarification, I don't count 2 as a scumtell since I don't think he is "jumping" on SC. I posted that I don't consider illogical defence during RV a scumtell as well, but you may have a point that 5,6,7 are scumtells since he posted them *outside* the RV stage.

I don't think appeasement is a scumtell though...he might just have an important power role so he might not want to get involved in controversy. Having said that, he has just claimed that he is townie, so it *is* possible that 3,4 points towards him being scum.

There are good reasons to consider 1 a scumtell, yes.

If you consider all of that in context, thats an awfully big hole that MM dug himself. It seems quite obviou to me why everyone is jumping on MM. What I want to know is why are you defending MM and then turning around and saying you're suspisious of everyone on the MM wagon? How do you think this will make you look if MM IS scum?

I'm defending MM because I don't want a mislynch. Yes, I know what I would look like if MM is scum, but that doesn't mean that we should preserve our reputations at all costs.

Mafiamann looks very scummy indeed. Still, his meta is holding me back from the wagon for now, plus the fact I am in no hurry to end this day.

Um what is "his meta"?

I dont recall making these statements and I'm not on

heavy

drugs...so....

Yeah, I was the one who made both the posts you quoted to ecto, jonathan.

[Rhinox]

Thanks for all the unvotings.

Unvote

(My vote was on clock but now he's dead)

Let's count the scum tells:
1: not voting
2: opportunistic voting (jumping on SC and calling it random IS opportunistic)
3: appeasement (voting to make muffin happy
4: appeasement again (unvoting immediately after being questioned about voting SC)
5: illogical defense (calling the vote on SC random)
6: illogical defense again (saying he didn't want to start a wagon, when he was actually jumping on a wagon, not starting one)
7: illogical defense again (couldn't spell clock)

Just for the sake of clarification, I don't count 2 as a scumtell since I don't think he is "jumping" on SC. I posted that I don't consider illogical defence during RV a scumtell as well, but you may have a point that 5,6,7 are scumtells since he posted them *outside* the RV stage.

I don't think appeasement is a scumtell though...he might just have an important power role so he might not want to get involved in controversy. Having said that, he has just claimed that he is townie, so it *is* possible that 3,4 points towards him being scum.

There are good reasons to consider 1 a scumtell, yes.

If you consider all of that in context, thats an awfully big hole that MM dug himself. It seems quite obviou to me why everyone is jumping on MM. What I want to know is why are you defending MM and then turning around and saying you're suspisious of everyone on the MM wagon? How do you think this will make you look if MM IS scum?

I'm defending MM because I don't want a mislynch. Yes, I know what I would look like if MM is scum, but that doesn't mean that we should preserve our reputations at all costs.

That reminds me... you concede that all but 1 of my points are valid scum tells, but you still defended MM. There are more appropriate ways to avoid a "mislynch" or in this case a premature lynch other than defending that person. For example, holding back your vote and continuing today's conversation until a point where it becomes appropriate to hammer. I don't think you can say you're trying to avoid a mislynch if you're both defending someone and conceding that he's scummy. Thats kinda contradictory.

[Ectomancer]

I don't think you can say you're trying to avoid a mislynch if you're both defending someone and conceding that he's scummy. Thats kinda contradictory.

You can say it, but what you are really doing is a balancing act. Hard to say whether you are looking at a cautious townie, or a non-committal scum though.

[ClockworkRuse]

Bah!

[jonathantan86]

Oops...sorry that I attributed the quote to the wrong person.

That reminds me... you concede that all but 1 of my points are valid scum tells, but you still defended MM. There are more appropriate ways to avoid a "mislynch" or in this case a premature lynch other than defending that person. For example, holding back your vote and continuing today's conversation until a point where it becomes appropriate to hammer. I don't think you can say you're trying to avoid a mislynch if you're both defending someone and conceding that he's scummy. Thats kinda contradictory.

At the time when I posted that I don't understand why so many people thought that MafiaMann was scum, I did not acknowledge 3-7 as scum-tells. I'm not sure now though, especially after MM has claimed townie (although he might still be a powerrole claiming townie to hide his identity, but that's not too probable). If 3-7 are scumtells, then yes MM is highly probably scum, but if not, then of your list of 7 there's only 1 valid scumtell (to me).

[Ectomancer]

Alright, let's do some loose theorizing here.

I dont think it is a far stretch to assume that Clock was working alone. (though I still say the possibility, however small, exists for 2 scum groups of 2) Regardless, another scum faction exists in the game and had no idea of Clock's alignment.

What would they do? I may be circling the WIFOM maelstrom and just may possibly fall in, but here goes:

They could assume Clock was town.
They might have gotten lucky and guessed him as a Predator.

I think the greater likelyhood is they would have thought him town. (as I did at one time)

So I think there are a couple of positions scum would try to occupy, depending upon whether MM is scum himself or not.

Let's say MM is town.

Early on in the wagon, scum might see a townie (Clock) attacking another townie (MM). At that time, one of the scum would be tempted to lend some early support to the wagon make sure it takes off. A researcher would comb this time frame for interactions.
Later in the wagon, if it looked like MM was going to be lynched for sure, if they had jumped on early, they would certainly be sitting securely there, and maybe even a little quiet about the whole thing now. If they had not voted against MM, in order to be active, they would probably be looking to toss in a few lines for the next day lynch by gently forwarding a case against someone else, or prepping for the Clock lynch if MM turned up town. (but not enough to derail the MM wagon)

Now, if we assume MM scum:

Early on, who knows what his partners would be doing.
Middle round, as the wagon builds, they might start getting nervous and feel obliged to defend MM, maybe subtly if they are feeling momentum going the wrong way. I believe this is also a good place to bus a partner if you can feel that the case is going to go through.
Late rounds, it is almost too late to bus, but scum might still do it, usually without advancing the case, just rehashing or rephrasing old arguments.

Now all of this seems to point to me wanting to lynch MM, because I think we could get some decent information if we knew his alignment. I hesitated to put forth that idea originally because, as you can see, the information would be dubious, unless he turns up scum. But there actually is a good and valid reason to lynch MM today, and that has to do with Clock turning up Predator.

If we assume Clock was a day SK, he had no idea of MM's alignment. You see, I was going to go back to my case against SC, because I moved off of it due to Clock's case against MM being a better one (IMO). SC's case is still pretty good.

However.

If I'm an SK, I scum hunt. I need them dead, the sooner, the better.

To me, that means that Clock's case isn't trash to be tossed aside. I think it was an honest one.

With that assessment:

vote MafiaMann

I think the case was a good one, and though the information gained may be too WIFOMish to use, I would still like to know whether Clock was right.

[Cass]

@Jonathan: with MM's meta, I mean that I've seen him play

extremely

scummy in another game. This by no means convinces me of his innocence, nor should it. But it does make me want to avoid a quick lynch on him and a short day. There's no need to hurry.

[wolframnhart]

Alright, let's do some loose theorizing here.

I dont think it is a far stretch to assume that Clock was working alone. (though I still say the possibility, however small, exists for 2 scum groups of 2) Regardless, another scum faction exists in the game and had no idea of Clock's alignment.

What would they do? I may be circling the WIFOM maelstrom and just may possibly fall in, but here goes:

They could assume Clock was town.
They might have gotten lucky and guessed him as a Predator.

I think the greater likelyhood is they would have thought him town. (as I did at one time)

So I think there are a couple of positions scum would try to occupy, depending upon whether MM is scum himself or not.

Let's say MM is town.

Early on in the wagon, scum might see a townie (Clock) attacking another townie (MM). At that time, one of the scum would be tempted to lend some early support to the wagon make sure it takes off. A researcher would comb this time frame for interactions.
Later in the wagon, if it looked like MM was going to be lynched for sure, if they had jumped on early, they would certainly be sitting securely there, and maybe even a little quiet about the whole thing now. If they had not voted against MM, in order to be active, they would probably be looking to toss in a few lines for the next day lynch by gently forwarding a case against someone else, or prepping for the Clock lynch if MM turned up town. (but not enough to derail the MM wagon)

Now, if we assume MM scum:

Early on, who knows what his partners would be doing.
Middle round, as the wagon builds, they might start getting nervous and feel obliged to defend MM, maybe subtly if they are feeling momentum going the wrong way. I believe this is also a good place to bus a partner if you can feel that the case is going to go through.
Late rounds, it is almost too late to bus, but scum might still do it, usually without advancing the case, just rehashing or rephrasing old arguments.

Now all of this seems to point to me wanting to lynch MM, because I think we could get some decent information if we knew his alignment. I hesitated to put forth that idea originally because, as you can see, the information would be dubious, unless he turns up scum. But there actually is a good and valid reason to lynch MM today, and that has to do with Clock turning up Predator.

If we assume Clock was a day SK, he had no idea of MM's alignment. You see, I was going to go back to my case against SC, because I moved off of it due to Clock's case against MM being a better one (IMO). SC's case is still pretty good.

However.

If I'm an SK, I scum hunt. I need them dead, the sooner, the better.

To me, that means that Clock's case isn't trash to be tossed aside. I think it was an honest one.

With that assessment:

vote MafiaMann

I think the case was a good one, and though the information gained may be too WIFOMish to use, I would still like to know whether Clock was right.

Ecto's post here brings up some good points. I agree that Clocks case shouldn't be completely given up because he turned out to be SK, and mafiamann's posts still don't make alot of sense even if you take away clocks posts about them That being said:

vote MafiaMann

[StrangerCoug]

MafiaMann's at L-1. I'm not opposed to his lynch, but let's hear him out before we hammer.

[MafiaMann]

Ive claimed and i do think the name in my claim makes a big difference than in other games. For anyone who knows the show they know my character was a good guy. No one counterclaimed my name so that should be proof that im not lying about it. If anyone seen the show esspecialy at the beggining they know zaphod was a good and loyal whisker.

Apparently someone has pointed out that he is now a rover in the new shows but i am pretty sure this i s based on the older shows if anyone can back this statement that would help my case.

[StrangerCoug]

I'd think of this game as an unofficial midquel if it can even be called that, MafiaMann. Current and future episodes will most likely not have any bearing on this game.

[Rishi]

Vote Count

MafiaMann – 5 (muffinhead, Bogre, StrangerCoug, Ectomancer, wolframnhart)
Bogre – 1 (Cass)

Not voting: Rhinox, curiouskarmadog, MafiaMann, jonathantan86

[curiouskarmadog]

@Jonathan: with MM's meta, I mean that I've seen him play

extremely

scummy in another game. This by no means convinces me of his innocence, nor should it. But it does make me want to avoid a quick lynch on him and a short day. There's no need to hurry.

Cass is this other game completed?..if so can I have the reference?