Mini 828 - ProzacMod 3 - Lost Mafia - Over
Forum rules
- xRECKONERx
- xRECKONERx
-
xRECKONERx
- GD is my Best Man
- GD is my Best Man
- Posts: 26087
- Joined: March 15, 2009
- ZONEACE
- ZONEACE
-
ZONEACE
- There's no F in ZONEFACE
- There's no F in ZONEFACE
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: November 10, 2003
- Location: Harlem NYC
- Contact:
Oh, and just for the record, my question wasn't "do you want to become a SK again" that was what i chose from as a result of what happened because of how i answered my question, which was "do you want to see your mother?" the result was she shot me which brought back my psychotic tendencies.
Late twenties, early Thursdays
- canadianbovine
- canadianbovine
-
canadianbovine
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 591
- Joined: October 22, 2008
- Location: san francisco
- curiouskarmadog
- curiouskarmadog
-
curiouskarmadog
- This Space for Rant
- This Space for Rant
- Posts: 13591
- Joined: June 17, 2007
- Location: Roanoke, Va
- Amished
- Amished
-
Amished
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
lol, EMP would've been on scum the final day had he been alive. ZA could've coasted to a town victory without anybody knowing it had he not killed. I would've been lynched and he could've just killed EMP if xRx just listened to me and unvoted sooner
@ckd: Yep, everyone did kinda get screwed over. Except ZA.
@ckd: Yep, everyone did kinda get screwed over. Except ZA.
I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."
No, my name is not "Ed."
Thanks all and mod for the game. I should have some comments for the setup, but I think I'm going to wait for the mod to lay it out before I say anything about that.
One ironic bit of trivia: I first volunteered to be a backupmod, and was told that the game wouldn't need one. Only then did I sign up as a player. Imagine how differently the game would have gone (a) with a backupmod and (b) without me playing.
And to clarify something: my first guess was that the SK was Sayid, based on the interplay that he had with young Ben/adult Ben had- that’s why I addressed myself to Sayid initially. My burst of realization D2 was the SK made more sense as Jacob. I was actually a bit confused when Zoneace later claimed Daniel- I was partially wondering if he was trying to trap someone into fakeclaiming, and partially didn’t think it mattered at that point.
For the record, after I died I was worried at the end that there was a secret 13th player in the game (Jacob, who I was guessing was ShadowLurker based on the response I got to my question). And while I was curious to see what would unfold with a reset…
As for play- and I realize that this is a very vain thing to say, especially after the grief that flared up D3, but I think I do want to explain myself, so please hear me out. But I don’t really regret my decisions this game.
I singlehandedly identified 2 of the 3 antitowns, and was able to neutralize them. And I left the town in a position where it could identify and neutralize the third. Unfortunately, in between what happened, happened. And the town wound up needing 4 neutralizations instead of 3. Again, I concede that this is a very vain thing to assert. But considering what caused the town to lose- I’m not really sure what I
The few regrets I have mainly involve CB. (And to a lesser degree Jebus- while I realized that something was wrong with all the D1 bandwagons (well, except the Zoneace bandwagon, but I had him pegged as SK at that point), I picked the wrong suspect to go to.) But I misread CB- and more importantly, I didn’t reevaluating after I learned that I had misread him. I second-guessed myself N1 and changed my target from Zoneace to CB. And I’ll admit, this probably clouded my judgment regarding him D2. I should have stopped to reevaluate once my first read was off, but instead I was just upset for second-guessing myself. I was also a little clouded because I knew that CB was a “safe” lynch, since I knew he couldn’t be the SK.
VP:
First of all, thanks for taking one for the team. Even if it didn’t work, I don’t think it would have changed the outcome, if it matters at all.
Second, I apologize for any condescension. I ask you to sympathize with my predicament:
After successfully converting Zoneace, and with both kills stopped, I knew I needed to be hearing reactions from everyone- but I needed to stall until the Julsslot got filled, because I wanted to hear from them most of all. And I couldn’t say why we needed to wait without giving anything away, especially since I wanted people to keep talking. Since I knew I was able to confirm my innocence, I knew I could behave in ways I wouldn’t otherwise have been able to get away with. I wanted people to talk, and wanted people to react.
Unfortunately, Zoneace was a blabbermouth, so the result wasn’t exactly what I wanted. Especially when CDB wound up needing replacement as well.
As for the VP/Amished decision- honestly, I can’t say I regret that choice.
D1 you had tried to insist that either the copclaim or the doctorclaim were false, and fished for whether the cop would be unprotected.
D2 you tried to clear Zoneace and Juls as obvtown, with reasons which didn’t hold up to scrutiny- especially when Zoneace/Juls were in fact antitown.
And you must understand, literally every time I made a post in which I attacked anyone else, I would get a twinge in my stomach that I was letting you get away. It’s to your credit that in the end, you managed to convince me not to lynch you. But when we got a safety play of letting you be lynched, I jumped at it.
CKD:
Yeah, I was on 4 town lynches, but I singlehandly found out the SK, and neutralized him. (And saved you from being killed in the process, I might add.) And I almost singlehandly pressured one mafia enough to get them lynched, even if I weren’t technically voting them at the end of the day. And I helped the town get to a point where we could lynch out their remaining suspects to get the last mafia.
Was I perfect? Did I win? No, and no. As it happened, we needed 4 neutralizations for 3 suspects.
You want to criticize my play? I welcome any constructive advice you have. But I suggest that you objectively compare my actions to the actions of the other 11 players. Compare how my contributions to the loss to anyone else’s.
And for the record, I do not consider what happened D4 a speedlynch. You had been asked repeatedly for half of D2 and all of D3 to explain yourself, and you had made it abundantly clear that you would not. The reveals of BM as mafia and VP as town certainly didn’t change anything. I saw no reason to wait any longer on you, not when I felt (correctly, albeit ironically too late) that the only thing the town had to fear was a modquestion.
Santos:
I don’t know how serious and how appeal-to-emotion your “I always play bad and get lynched” was. But, um, if you are looking for how to improve, number one is: don’t lie.
Let me repeat that:.
The longer version is: don’t lie unless you’re willing to accept the consequences. And those consequences usually are death. But if you’re not sure, it’s best to err on the side of don’t lie ever.
Towns can win if the cop gets one fewer investigation. Towns can win if the cop gets roleblocked. Towns can win if the cop gets killed. But towns generally can’t win if players are allowed to make outrageous lies and get away with it, because then the mafia can get away with making outrageous lies.
[And, um, insisting that a player is town when they are actually mafia- that generally is enough on its own for a lynch. Between those 2 things- I find it really hard to fault lynching you. Even if Amished had been lynched first, had I been around the last day, I would have been hard pressed to not think you either a 3rd mafia or a traitor after.]
Amished:
My sympathies- that was not a fun point to replace in at.
Although, you thought you had a hard time winning with your role? I needed to, without knowing it, play my role suboptimally. If I identify the SK, I have a better chance of winning if I *don’t* target them than if I do!
Also, what happened the final night? Seems like the proper play is either to kill someone or block Zoneace.
And reading over the mafiatalk thread: Ironically, I wish the mafia *had* roleblocked me N2…
Reckoner:
For what it’s worth, I don’t blame you for your D6 choice. Amished was definitely guilty at that point- the only question was Zoneace. The only thing I might have done differently was to see what Zoneace’s reaction to the modquestion was, since it had already gone out. Which is what I had been hoping to do at the end of D3, but the mod incorrectly cut day off early. And since you had already gotten your second question, waiting only had the potential to harm you.
Zoneace:
I’d have more sympathy for you if you hadn’t stabbed me in the back, you know…
Not did I not turn you in by shouting out hey-there’s-a-SK-in-the-game-and-look-I-think-it’s-Zoneace. But also: my question D2 was whether to take a shot at Abaddon or not. I interpreted that as a choice between becoming a 1-shot vigilante or staying a psychologist. So I chose to not shoot, since I was so certain that I was about to recruit you.
So, I gave you the opportunity to be part of a team win instead of getting an individual loss.
When you had a win either way, you choose to make the rest of the team lose.
That’s your choice, certainly, and you got a win. But, don’t be surprised that there’s bitterness at what you chose.
Also, why were you so chatty at the start of D3?
BM:
I don’t know how on earth you think that that is socially acceptable behavior. Making Porochaz xreplace into your game, and then refusing to play in his?
One ironic bit of trivia: I first volunteered to be a backupmod, and was told that the game wouldn't need one. Only then did I sign up as a player. Imagine how differently the game would have gone (a) with a backupmod and (b) without me playing.
And to clarify something: my first guess was that the SK was Sayid, based on the interplay that he had with young Ben/adult Ben had- that’s why I addressed myself to Sayid initially. My burst of realization D2 was the SK made more sense as Jacob. I was actually a bit confused when Zoneace later claimed Daniel- I was partially wondering if he was trying to trap someone into fakeclaiming, and partially didn’t think it mattered at that point.
For the record, after I died I was worried at the end that there was a secret 13th player in the game (Jacob, who I was guessing was ShadowLurker based on the response I got to my question). And while I was curious to see what would unfold with a reset…
<bah>Dead is dead. You don't get to come back from that, not even here.</bah>
As for play- and I realize that this is a very vain thing to say, especially after the grief that flared up D3, but I think I do want to explain myself, so please hear me out. But I don’t really regret my decisions this game.
I singlehandedly identified 2 of the 3 antitowns, and was able to neutralize them. And I left the town in a position where it could identify and neutralize the third. Unfortunately, in between what happened, happened. And the town wound up needing 4 neutralizations instead of 3. Again, I concede that this is a very vain thing to assert. But considering what caused the town to lose- I’m not really sure what I
The few regrets I have mainly involve CB. (And to a lesser degree Jebus- while I realized that something was wrong with all the D1 bandwagons (well, except the Zoneace bandwagon, but I had him pegged as SK at that point), I picked the wrong suspect to go to.) But I misread CB- and more importantly, I didn’t reevaluating after I learned that I had misread him. I second-guessed myself N1 and changed my target from Zoneace to CB. And I’ll admit, this probably clouded my judgment regarding him D2. I should have stopped to reevaluate once my first read was off, but instead I was just upset for second-guessing myself. I was also a little clouded because I knew that CB was a “safe” lynch, since I knew he couldn’t be the SK.
VP:
First of all, thanks for taking one for the team. Even if it didn’t work, I don’t think it would have changed the outcome, if it matters at all.
Second, I apologize for any condescension. I ask you to sympathize with my predicament:
After successfully converting Zoneace, and with both kills stopped, I knew I needed to be hearing reactions from everyone- but I needed to stall until the Julsslot got filled, because I wanted to hear from them most of all. And I couldn’t say why we needed to wait without giving anything away, especially since I wanted people to keep talking. Since I knew I was able to confirm my innocence, I knew I could behave in ways I wouldn’t otherwise have been able to get away with. I wanted people to talk, and wanted people to react.
Unfortunately, Zoneace was a blabbermouth, so the result wasn’t exactly what I wanted. Especially when CDB wound up needing replacement as well.
As for the VP/Amished decision- honestly, I can’t say I regret that choice.
D1 you had tried to insist that either the copclaim or the doctorclaim were false, and fished for whether the cop would be unprotected.
D2 you tried to clear Zoneace and Juls as obvtown, with reasons which didn’t hold up to scrutiny- especially when Zoneace/Juls were in fact antitown.
And you must understand, literally every time I made a post in which I attacked anyone else, I would get a twinge in my stomach that I was letting you get away. It’s to your credit that in the end, you managed to convince me not to lynch you. But when we got a safety play of letting you be lynched, I jumped at it.
CKD:
Yeah, I was on 4 town lynches, but I singlehandly found out the SK, and neutralized him. (And saved you from being killed in the process, I might add.) And I almost singlehandly pressured one mafia enough to get them lynched, even if I weren’t technically voting them at the end of the day. And I helped the town get to a point where we could lynch out their remaining suspects to get the last mafia.
Was I perfect? Did I win? No, and no. As it happened, we needed 4 neutralizations for 3 suspects.
You want to criticize my play? I welcome any constructive advice you have. But I suggest that you objectively compare my actions to the actions of the other 11 players. Compare how my contributions to the loss to anyone else’s.
And for the record, I do not consider what happened D4 a speedlynch. You had been asked repeatedly for half of D2 and all of D3 to explain yourself, and you had made it abundantly clear that you would not. The reveals of BM as mafia and VP as town certainly didn’t change anything. I saw no reason to wait any longer on you, not when I felt (correctly, albeit ironically too late) that the only thing the town had to fear was a modquestion.
Santos:
I don’t know how serious and how appeal-to-emotion your “I always play bad and get lynched” was. But, um, if you are looking for how to improve, number one is: don’t lie.
Let me repeat that:
don’t lie
The longer version is: don’t lie unless you’re willing to accept the consequences. And those consequences usually are death. But if you’re not sure, it’s best to err on the side of don’t lie ever.
Towns can win if the cop gets one fewer investigation. Towns can win if the cop gets roleblocked. Towns can win if the cop gets killed. But towns generally can’t win if players are allowed to make outrageous lies and get away with it, because then the mafia can get away with making outrageous lies.
[And, um, insisting that a player is town when they are actually mafia- that generally is enough on its own for a lynch. Between those 2 things- I find it really hard to fault lynching you. Even if Amished had been lynched first, had I been around the last day, I would have been hard pressed to not think you either a 3rd mafia or a traitor after.]
Amished:
My sympathies- that was not a fun point to replace in at.
Although, you thought you had a hard time winning with your role? I needed to, without knowing it, play my role suboptimally. If I identify the SK, I have a better chance of winning if I *don’t* target them than if I do!
Also, what happened the final night? Seems like the proper play is either to kill someone or block Zoneace.
And reading over the mafiatalk thread: Ironically, I wish the mafia *had* roleblocked me N2…
Reckoner:
For what it’s worth, I don’t blame you for your D6 choice. Amished was definitely guilty at that point- the only question was Zoneace. The only thing I might have done differently was to see what Zoneace’s reaction to the modquestion was, since it had already gone out. Which is what I had been hoping to do at the end of D3, but the mod incorrectly cut day off early. And since you had already gotten your second question, waiting only had the potential to harm you.
Zoneace:
I’d have more sympathy for you if you hadn’t stabbed me in the back, you know…
Not did I not turn you in by shouting out hey-there’s-a-SK-in-the-game-and-look-I-think-it’s-Zoneace. But also: my question D2 was whether to take a shot at Abaddon or not. I interpreted that as a choice between becoming a 1-shot vigilante or staying a psychologist. So I chose to not shoot, since I was so certain that I was about to recruit you.
So, I gave you the opportunity to be part of a team win instead of getting an individual loss.
When you had a win either way, you choose to make the rest of the team lose.
That’s your choice, certainly, and you got a win. But, don’t be surprised that there’s bitterness at what you chose.
If you don't mind my asking, then why did you?ZONEACE wrote:Yeah, I originally wasn't going to become a SK again cause i thought the town was likely going to win the next day.
Also, why were you so chatty at the start of D3?
BM:
I don’t know how on earth you think that that is socially acceptable behavior. Making Porochaz xreplace into your game, and then refusing to play in his?
- ZONEACE
- ZONEACE
-
ZONEACE
- There's no F in ZONEFACE
- There's no F in ZONEFACE
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: November 10, 2003
- Location: Harlem NYC
- Contact:
As I said, this was my first SK win. That's why. I saw the opportunity to get it and took it.EmpTyger wrote:If you don't mind my asking, then why did you?ZONEACE wrote:Yeah, I originally wasn't going to become a SK again cause i thought the town was likely going to win the next day.
I didn't see a downside to what I was saying.Also, why were you so chatty at the start of D3?
How'd you peg me as SK day one?
Late twenties, early Thursdays
- Amished
- Amished
-
Amished
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
The last night I had already given up. I roleblocked xRx for the hell of it. Overall, I think it should've ended up the best way possible the way I did do it, but my heart wasn't in the game at all at that point.
If we go back to before BM claimed scum; I figured I could get a win if Santos was lynched.
We had alive:
EMP (claimed psych)
ZA (cleared SK)
VP (miller (adds wifom))
ckd (heavy against VP at all costs)
Santos (cop, the lynch if it wasn't for BM)
xRx (ex-cop, still looked scummy, not cleared thought would've been after Santos' flip)
BM
Me.
Santos gets lynched, I choose to kill EMP (you did play well this game, I don't care what ckd says. I judge my play by how the opposing faction views me; and I was damn scared that you'd look at me with any scrutiny).
Leaves
VP, ZA, xRx, ckd, BM, Me
Santos' flip would make me bus BM hardcore (which was my plan all along as soon as I replaced in); get him lynched, and then NK ZA (other confirmed).
Leaves VP, xRx, ckd, me. Optimally there's a no-lynch (based on theory), I kill xRx due to ckd going after VP (probably; this is the one decision that's affected by how much happens in the meantime) By this time, I think that I could've gotten enough town-cred to not be a major suspect at the end, and if ckd screwed up once at the end and kept with his VP attack; I'm on enough most days to quick hammer and win the game.
However, BM got lynched, I couldn't roleblock Santos (who would've cleared ckd in the meantime) and kill; so I had to forfeit my kill every night that he didn't die. I couldn't oppose ckd's quicklynch too much (fear of EMP/fear of any scrutiny) just due to him still being a mislynch; but it left Santos alive *again*.
By this time I want to give up, but if I were town in this game I would've been pissed at Santos' blatant lies that make absolutely no sense whatsoever (and the choice to investigate you, EMP, when you're *told* Jin was scum, and Jin name-claimed) so I pushed for his lynch no matter what out of spite. I wanted to just give up at that point, as you {EMP} would've just pushed for my lynch and ZA would've won anyways.
Heck, had I thought about it, from what I knew of the setup (4 town power roles, 2 pairs of confirmed town against 2 scum (no, I'm not counting a traitor as scum just because IT'S NOT CONFIRMED THAT THE TRAITOR WOULD ACTUALLY TURN SCUM) I would've roleblocked ZA; and kept getting xRx and I to vote for no-lynch to force a draw out of protest. Though I do respect you {EMP} and VP; so I would've wanted you to win.
I'm also curious as to how you pegged a SK on D1. Theoretically it's basically impossible for them to be distinguished from a townie as they have the same survival instinct (though a bit stronger) and they're searching for scum legitimately. I don't get why cdb roleblocked xRx N2 when it was obvious that you were dropping PR tells left and right. Heck, if we did roleblock you, we would've killed the SK and been able to claim vig (at least 1-shot) for doing so
If we go back to before BM claimed scum; I figured I could get a win if Santos was lynched.
We had alive:
EMP (claimed psych)
ZA (cleared SK)
VP (miller (adds wifom))
ckd (heavy against VP at all costs)
Santos (cop, the lynch if it wasn't for BM)
xRx (ex-cop, still looked scummy, not cleared thought would've been after Santos' flip)
BM
Me.
Santos gets lynched, I choose to kill EMP (you did play well this game, I don't care what ckd says. I judge my play by how the opposing faction views me; and I was damn scared that you'd look at me with any scrutiny).
Leaves
VP, ZA, xRx, ckd, BM, Me
Santos' flip would make me bus BM hardcore (which was my plan all along as soon as I replaced in); get him lynched, and then NK ZA (other confirmed).
Leaves VP, xRx, ckd, me. Optimally there's a no-lynch (based on theory), I kill xRx due to ckd going after VP (probably; this is the one decision that's affected by how much happens in the meantime) By this time, I think that I could've gotten enough town-cred to not be a major suspect at the end, and if ckd screwed up once at the end and kept with his VP attack; I'm on enough most days to quick hammer and win the game.
However, BM got lynched, I couldn't roleblock Santos (who would've cleared ckd in the meantime) and kill; so I had to forfeit my kill every night that he didn't die. I couldn't oppose ckd's quicklynch too much (fear of EMP/fear of any scrutiny) just due to him still being a mislynch; but it left Santos alive *again*.
By this time I want to give up, but if I were town in this game I would've been pissed at Santos' blatant lies that make absolutely no sense whatsoever (and the choice to investigate you, EMP, when you're *told* Jin was scum, and Jin name-claimed) so I pushed for his lynch no matter what out of spite. I wanted to just give up at that point, as you {EMP} would've just pushed for my lynch and ZA would've won anyways.
Heck, had I thought about it, from what I knew of the setup (4 town power roles, 2 pairs of confirmed town against 2 scum (no, I'm not counting a traitor as scum just because IT'S NOT CONFIRMED THAT THE TRAITOR WOULD ACTUALLY TURN SCUM) I would've roleblocked ZA; and kept getting xRx and I to vote for no-lynch to force a draw out of protest. Though I do respect you {EMP} and VP; so I would've wanted you to win.
I'm also curious as to how you pegged a SK on D1. Theoretically it's basically impossible for them to be distinguished from a townie as they have the same survival instinct (though a bit stronger) and they're searching for scum legitimately. I don't get why cdb roleblocked xRx N2 when it was obvious that you were dropping PR tells left and right. Heck, if we did roleblock you, we would've killed the SK and been able to claim vig (at least 1-shot) for doing so
I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."
No, my name is not "Ed."
- xRECKONERx
- xRECKONERx
-
xRECKONERx
- GD is my Best Man
- GD is my Best Man
- Posts: 26087
- Joined: March 15, 2009
Actually, I'm curious why Reckoner/Kate's death is labeled as "Cop turned Vanilla", but I'm still listed as "Psychologist". I hope that's an oversight, since I was told I was a "Psychologist turned Vanilla" (actually, the mod used psychologist and psychiatrist pretty interchangeably).
Keep in mind that I never had to express this, so I’m writing this all with hindsight and much later. But to try to explain, even if vaguely-
It was kind of, a general sense of trying to be as loud but as unlistened to as possible, if that makes sense? Obviously at the beginning Zoneace tried way too hard to keep his head down and then overreacted when he got called out. But he seemed to only care about discrediting votes on him, rather than actual suspecting those who were voting him. And he really didn’t do anything that would cause him to stand out from the herd. And I didn’t see anyone who could be your partner. And knowing that the setup has a SK is a big clue to finding them out. No one else seemed likely to be SK, for most of the day.
(In retrospect I don’t even remember what specifically turned me to CB. I do remember after tunneling on CB N1 I caught the Korean on reread and talked myself into thinking that maybe Sun could be Ben’s SK. N2 I did tell the mod that if somehow it wasn’t Zoneace D2, the only other one left that seemed even possible was CDB.)
VP:
Also, for what it’s worth, for all the reasons that you were suspected, I don’t quite understand the “claimed miller is mafia”. My problems with you were entirely based on your play, not your claim.
Amished:
(Thanks for the flattery, but if this ever does comes up again, I don’t care how much you respect me- at least play for the draw.)
I understand feeling demoralized. Until Reckoner’s question, I don’t believe I would have lynched down to you- there were too many players more suspicious. But after Reckoner’s question- not only was the VP mislynch gone, but Reckoner effectively confirmed himself as not mafia. (And that was the *good* result. The bad result causes you to lose immediately.)
I actually think CKD was your best mislynch D3, not Santos. You can’t really effectively bus BM after Santos is revealed as innocent. More people were willing to vote CKD than Santos. And if CKD is revealed innocent, VP and Reckoner are implicated. N3 you can nightkill Santos, neutralizing the cop and establishing BM/Sun as innocent.
One minor question: the flash animation said that when the psychiatrist is successful, the ex-SK becomes a doctor. (The mod had to revise rule 3.1 to include the “may be some differences” clause when I asked about this.) I was wondering if the mafia would be scared that Zoneace might be a doctor- did that thought even cross your mind?
Keep in mind that I never had to express this, so I’m writing this all with hindsight and much later. But to try to explain, even if vaguely-
It was kind of, a general sense of trying to be as loud but as unlistened to as possible, if that makes sense? Obviously at the beginning Zoneace tried way too hard to keep his head down and then overreacted when he got called out. But he seemed to only care about discrediting votes on him, rather than actual suspecting those who were voting him. And he really didn’t do anything that would cause him to stand out from the herd. And I didn’t see anyone who could be your partner. And knowing that the setup has a SK is a big clue to finding them out. No one else seemed likely to be SK, for most of the day.
(In retrospect I don’t even remember what specifically turned me to CB. I do remember after tunneling on CB N1 I caught the Korean on reread and talked myself into thinking that maybe Sun could be Ben’s SK. N2 I did tell the mod that if somehow it wasn’t Zoneace D2, the only other one left that seemed even possible was CDB.)
VP:
Also, for what it’s worth, for all the reasons that you were suspected, I don’t quite understand the “claimed miller is mafia”. My problems with you were entirely based on your play, not your claim.
Amished:
(Thanks for the flattery, but if this ever does comes up again, I don’t care how much you respect me- at least play for the draw.)
I understand feeling demoralized. Until Reckoner’s question, I don’t believe I would have lynched down to you- there were too many players more suspicious. But after Reckoner’s question- not only was the VP mislynch gone, but Reckoner effectively confirmed himself as not mafia. (And that was the *good* result. The bad result causes you to lose immediately.)
I actually think CKD was your best mislynch D3, not Santos. You can’t really effectively bus BM after Santos is revealed as innocent. More people were willing to vote CKD than Santos. And if CKD is revealed innocent, VP and Reckoner are implicated. N3 you can nightkill Santos, neutralizing the cop and establishing BM/Sun as innocent.
One minor question: the flash animation said that when the psychiatrist is successful, the ex-SK becomes a doctor. (The mod had to revise rule 3.1 to include the “may be some differences” clause when I asked about this.) I was wondering if the mafia would be scared that Zoneace might be a doctor- did that thought even cross your mind?
- curiouskarmadog
- curiouskarmadog
-
curiouskarmadog
- This Space for Rant
- This Space for Rant
- Posts: 13591
- Joined: June 17, 2007
- Location: Roanoke, Va
Emp, I have no clue what you are talking about..I repeatedly told you what you wanted to know. I didnt think Santos was scum....I was right. It felt like the CB lynch all over again...I was being bullied into a lynch I didnt agree with. At the time, I heavily suspected VP and Reck (which means I wasnt that much better than you at picking scum). I didnt think Santos was scum, what you need to understand for the future, is people change their opinion....sometimes it is just a vibe...get over it.
Also in an indirect way (not your fault) you made us lose. By confirming that the SK was now town, everyone looked elsewhere, it is unheard of for a SK to revert back, so I am not blaming you...if you were alive would you have ever lynched ZA? I dont think you should be taking so much "credit" for finding the scum...you went through 4 townies to do it, though. Really you were ZA's puppet once you "confirmed" him. So I was right to suspect you two...you obviously werent confirmed anything...so spouting every two seconds that I was scum and you and ZA were obviously confirmed townies was....in fact false.
I think this game was the feather that broke the camel back in regards to lurkers. Who could get a read on someone who had to be replaced and didnt post? I think I might adapt a new, lynch lurkers D1-D3 policy (all things being constant, ie no obviously scum) and see how that works.
Emp, your thoughts on the game setup? Did we ever have a shot once you confirmed ZA?
Also in an indirect way (not your fault) you made us lose. By confirming that the SK was now town, everyone looked elsewhere, it is unheard of for a SK to revert back, so I am not blaming you...if you were alive would you have ever lynched ZA? I dont think you should be taking so much "credit" for finding the scum...you went through 4 townies to do it, though. Really you were ZA's puppet once you "confirmed" him. So I was right to suspect you two...you obviously werent confirmed anything...so spouting every two seconds that I was scum and you and ZA were obviously confirmed townies was....in fact false.
I think this game was the feather that broke the camel back in regards to lurkers. Who could get a read on someone who had to be replaced and didnt post? I think I might adapt a new, lynch lurkers D1-D3 policy (all things being constant, ie no obviously scum) and see how that works.
Emp, your thoughts on the game setup? Did we ever have a shot once you confirmed ZA?
Sorry, I have just skimmed at best but @Santos, can you tell me what you had in your role PM that "cleared" me for you?
I was really disappointed to see BM just give up. I thought I had done a pretty good job of fooling most of you (except Emp!...I wanted to kill you N1...grrr) and she kinda just threw that away because she was bored. It was really unfair to Amished who came in and played much better than Channeldibird.
I was really disappointed to see BM just give up. I thought I had done a pretty good job of fooling most of you (except Emp!...I wanted to kill you N1...grrr) and she kinda just threw that away because she was bored. It was really unfair to Amished who came in and played much better than Channeldibird.
-------------------------------------
Juls
Juls
- curiouskarmadog
- curiouskarmadog
-
curiouskarmadog
- This Space for Rant
- This Space for Rant
- Posts: 13591
- Joined: June 17, 2007
- Location: Roanoke, Va
I should revise this a little, Amished, played well with the cards he was given.Santos wrote:Hatercuriouskarmadog wrote:mod's lack of interest (RL?) hurt the game...the replacements hurt the game.
I think I am beating up on Emp too much as well. Emp is a good player, I was just fustrated with him this game. I didnt like his "we are obviously confirmed town, so except it" crap during the game. I understand it coming from ZA (now).
ZA, your thoughts on the SK reverting back mech? In our shoes, how would you have felt?
- VP Baltar
- VP Baltar
-
VP Baltar he/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 17476
- Joined: November 3, 2008
- Pronoun: he/him
No offense, but you mostly just lurked as the game went on and I don't see how you couldn't have won when you got the opportunity to become the SK again. It's nothing against you really, but the chips were definitely stacked in your favor.zone wrote:Yes, lets do everything possible to devalue my win
Thanks guys.
@Emp-you deserve praise for your play. I'm not denying you that because you were very important to the town's play in this game. My main problem was your inability to look past some of the more trivial matters. I think my whole problem with you was that you weren't listening to me or accepting anything I was saying as potentially being the truth. I agree that I was way off-base with my early reads and that's my problem (though I would argue that you had extra insight into zone that I did not have and he was playing a pro-town game early on). Reads are fluid though and I certainly wasn't going to excuse either of them for the rest of the game based on early reads.
I really do apologize about getting so angry at you because that wasn't fair and I understand you were just playing a pressure game. It was just like an extreme case of Volkan going on and I wanted to scream at you to actually consider both sides of the matter as potentially being the truth before you reached your conclusion. haha.
I knew that you didn't suspect me for the miller thing, because that was dumb really, but I chose to die because I knew at that point nothing I could say would actually relieve your suspicions of me. As a vanilla, I was happy to die because I knew it would help focus the town better.
I stand by this because a cop/doc combo where the cop is protected is fucking bad modding to the extreme. I would hope that Porochaz, who has been on the site for quite some time, would know this. I'm not apologizing for that because it never should have happened in the first place, nor would it be likely that the town would out them BOTH on day 1.emp wrote:D1 you had tried to insist that either the copclaim or the doctorclaim were false, and fished for whether the cop would be unprotected.
In terms of ckd, I really stopped feeling he was scum after his whole "bet" thing and cb's flip because it was just too over the top to be a scum gambit. Unfortunately, ignoring him wasn't going to do much for me and I doubt he was ever going to believe that I wasn't scum.
I agree 100% with emp's comments on Santos' play. The lying and ridiculous stances you took in this game made it impossible not to lynch you. Town had no choice. In my opinion, if you want to improve your play, you really need to stop assuming you are so obvious town that no one would ever lynch you. I think this is the problem I see most consistently in your play. You tend to make very bold moves as if you are running the game and they always come back to bite you. Playing conservatively at times and considering the theories/opinions of others is a good thing.
Amished not being able to Roleblock and kill as the last scum was another fail in the setup. It gave the scum team little to no chance of winning in endgame. I believe in the philosophy that the outcome of games should come down to lynch choices and not night actions. Plain and simple.
I agree with this and it is exactly why I hate people lurking. I personally feel it is very unsportsman like when every scum in the game essentially takes it upon themselves to go on massive lurk. Making yourself intentionally unreadable is a very lame tactic and detracts majorly from the overall fun of the game. I would never give credit to any scum that wins largely thanks to lurking.ckd wrote:I think this game was the feather that broke the camel back in regards to lurkers. Who could get a read on someone who had to be replaced and didnt post? I think I might adapt a new, lynch lurkers D1-D3 policy (all things being constant, ie no obviously scum) and see how that works.
- curiouskarmadog
- curiouskarmadog
-
curiouskarmadog
- This Space for Rant
- This Space for Rant
- Posts: 13591
- Joined: June 17, 2007
- Location: Roanoke, Va
this.VP Baltar wrote:No offense, but you mostly just lurked as the game went on and I don't see how you couldn't have won when you got the opportunity to become the SK again. It's nothing against you really, but the chips were definitely stacked in your favor.zone wrote:Yes, lets do everything possible to devalue my win
Thanks guys.
- Amished
- Amished
-
Amished
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
It's hard for me to understand why you guys didn't see EMP/ZA as cleared (SK being able to revert is ridiculous). The lack of two kills really isn't explained any other way, especially with a doc dying N1.
I thought that with a Santos flip cop; and him telling everyone that he needed to find Sun; it'd be painfully obvious that he was looking for scum. That's how I'd bus BM (and then for lurking as well at that point). Heck, even if he was able to defend from it and I got turned around on and lynched; my bus would've started very early in the day and when it really wasn't all that necessary (from your perspective, I think). He would've looked a lot better after that if I screwed up. After BM turns scum (assuming I'm successful), I think ckd still looks bad (could get mislynched) and then from there, like you said, both VP and xRx would look bad and that's who I have in endgame with me.
@ZA: N2, had I been in the mafia; I would've roleblocked EMP (maybe killed him). Either way, EMP couldn't find you if he was roleblocked and the kill on you would've worked. Or he's dead and he couldn't find you. Heck, halfway through D1 when EMP was hinting at Sayid; I initially pegged him as a hider to clear a vig (military experience). I've just never come across a psych/SK combo in a game yet which is why I didn't really consider that as a possibility. After EMP saying he couldn't protect me (the on/off island thing up in the air) I dismissed that possibility, but still knew he was some sort of PR that needed to be dealt with sooner rather than later.
I thought that with a Santos flip cop; and him telling everyone that he needed to find Sun; it'd be painfully obvious that he was looking for scum. That's how I'd bus BM (and then for lurking as well at that point). Heck, even if he was able to defend from it and I got turned around on and lynched; my bus would've started very early in the day and when it really wasn't all that necessary (from your perspective, I think). He would've looked a lot better after that if I screwed up. After BM turns scum (assuming I'm successful), I think ckd still looks bad (could get mislynched) and then from there, like you said, both VP and xRx would look bad and that's who I have in endgame with me.
@ZA: N2, had I been in the mafia; I would've roleblocked EMP (maybe killed him). Either way, EMP couldn't find you if he was roleblocked and the kill on you would've worked. Or he's dead and he couldn't find you. Heck, halfway through D1 when EMP was hinting at Sayid; I initially pegged him as a hider to clear a vig (military experience). I've just never come across a psych/SK combo in a game yet which is why I didn't really consider that as a possibility. After EMP saying he couldn't protect me (the on/off island thing up in the air) I dismissed that possibility, but still knew he was some sort of PR that needed to be dealt with sooner rather than later.
I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."
No, my name is not "Ed."