Mafiascum.net

In post 2023, notscience wrote:Why is peta town dgb?

Vax, I don’t get how your read on me being null would have any effect on my predecessor reading as scummy. Are you saying I’ve improved the read or you have no opinion on anything I’ve done? If it’s no opinion, would you like to engage me and change it?

I like a lot of his posts.

In post 1991, petapan wrote:mid-data review of bork, and i do feel like this is basically the root of the whole fight to begin with, prism makes an assessment of elements's play as bold for scum, bork comes in disagreeing from a theoretical perspective in the infamous 239, prism takes it as a discredit and blows the hell up, but really it's just fundamentally different ideas about the game. for what it's worth my own theoretical view is much closer to bork's - i think a significant number of players will opt to simply "go with the flow" as scum, so to speak, and avoid picking fights with strong, active voices, who they will townread because of perceived optics.

I think you're missing the significance of the interaction for me.

I understand fully disagreeing with my read on Elements. It's very plausible to make an overly strong statement/framing to highlight why you (in this case bork) disagreesIt's not just a theoretical disagreement. My vote is not about him disagreeing with my Elements read at all.

In post 2000, skitter30 wrote:Prism, you're gonna have to elaborate on the peta bit

Honestly, I don't really think I can. His post was fine up until the very last part where he said "but it can't be helped" and at that point to borrow a line from DGB scumdar go BZZZZZZZZT

If he townreads bork instinctively but thinks it's untrustworthy, that's okay, but he can absolutely help it by either sticking to it/looking for confirmation or just ignoring it or tossing it to the side.

In post 2020, notscience wrote:With regards to your big long posts I’ve made similar posts as scum and as town before. I’ve seen others do similarly, but that’s besides the point. I could see an argument for NAI.

tbh, i never make that post as scum here. in a newbie game, i might make a similar post like that to make myself seem like a leader, because new players are going to respond favorably to someone who acts formal and officious-sounding. here, i wasn't expecting that. that is just an entirely serious post about strategy and how i want to approach this game.

What scum motivation is there? Creating a peacekeeper “sane voice of reason” persona this game feels like a pretty safe place for scum to occupy.

I’m scumreading you for it because given my experience with you (and I understand the differences between all three games) I found you more apt to give in to emotion and try to leverage it as scum.

why would that be necessary for me, though? at that moment i wasn't in any particular danger. some ambient reads putting me toward the bottom of the poe, but no pressure anyway. as scum my first goal at any given moment is not "get townread". that's not a productive strategy (though i often do get townread from the way i play).

i can be an emotional player as both alignments, although this game i have been pretty sedate after getting out of my early-game mope (although prism is starting to piss me off). i think the newbie game we played together is a pretty poor baseline for my approach, for obvious reasons. i was in the game for barely any time at all before getting guiltied by a town PR. this threw me into an immediate confrontation, and i decided to counter claim and make a fight of it. this goes back to my roots as a player on epicmafia. there, the setups are open, typically night start, and with a small number of players (7-10). often the game will revolve around a day 1 investigative role claim, and to have any prayer of winning, a member of the mafia team pretty much has to counter-claim. i've done that CC battle literally hundreds of times. it is something i am extremely practiced in. i am always going to ratchet up the intensity in that situation because for most people, they will side with the loud voice.

i think you're showing a lack of understanding of how i approach the game as scum. here, the environment is completely different. it's a wide open field. everyone's still kind of trying to figure everyone else out. at any given moment as scum my number 1 goal is figuring out who i can push to get chopped. getting townies executed is how i win games. to that end, trying to defuse a toxic TvT fight as scum is phenomenally anti-wincon. any amount of "towncred" i would garner isn't worth it in comparison to taking 2 potential executions off the table. i laid out in that post i think that sort of fight is how towns lose games like this. you can absolutely bet i'd be looking to exploit it. it wouldn't be hard, either. here, i'm doing the opposite. i'm visibly trying to limit the amount of executions available by assembling a set of townreads i am hopeful can win the game. because i don't really expect scum to be easily "caught" here, so to speak. sure, i will often white knight a town player who is being pushed, but that's because i can't look like i'm willing to kill everyone, and at times like that i'm going to weakly posture against a wagon while hoping it goes through, and/or push a counter wagon on someone else, to establish another target. (or i might throw a weak bus vote on a teammate while not acting forcefully enough for the wagon to go through). here, i'm doing none of that. i just don't want prism and bork to burn everything down for no god damn reason.

in comparison to the strategy of trying to get townies killed, a single vaguely emotional paragraph where i talk about how the game is going to be difficult is, like...nothing. as a scum play it'd be pure dogshit.

Peta's 1991 is also way too kind to me given the interpretation he's describing. I don't really agree with his word choice of "blew up", but the thought does not even pass through his mind that I blew up over something theoretical in order to be more aggressive as scum, something he's already indicated he's wary of.

I don't see him taking out of this that I blew up over something theoretical without him immediately doubting his read and wondering bork is right. My page 39 is more likely to come from town but is absolutely within my scumrange, and I have a hard time buying he has me town for anything else recent.

I'm town but this interpretation and me pivoting to him should be redflags and peta is barreling ahead on his townread completely undeterred. He's seen a bit more of my towngame but he is more paranoid of me than this for sure.

In post 2022, Vaxkiller wrote:@peta

I guess I could iso them and go back over it. Every time I wanted to talk about it, they kept saying that things werent going well IRL, and stuff in the game seemed to effecting them, so I held back my thoughts.

Without reading, I remember they were pushing my beginning play as scummy, while completely ignoring everyone elses beginning play.

why can't seeing your beginning play as scummy compared to everyone else just be something he believed, rather than some kind of strategy on his part? this just doesn't make sense.

In post 2026, Prism wrote:

In post 1991, petapan wrote:mid-data review of bork, and i do feel like this is basically the root of the whole fight to begin with, prism makes an assessment of elements's play as bold for scum, bork comes in disagreeing from a theoretical perspective in the infamous 239, prism takes it as a discredit and blows the hell up, but really it's just fundamentally different ideas about the game. for what it's worth my own theoretical view is much closer to bork's - i think a significant number of players will opt to simply "go with the flow" as scum, so to speak, and avoid picking fights with strong, active voices, who they will townread because of perceived optics.

I think you're missing the significance of the interaction for me.

I understand fully disagreeing with my read on Elements. It's very plausible to make an overly strong statement/framing to highlight why you (in this case bork) disagrees

Spoiler: Significance of the interaction, long/weeds

However, I scumread bork already, and I suspected his questioning was not in good faith (actually trying to sort me or be persuaded). This suspicion prompted my vote before 239. I did not like the strawman because it confirmed my suspicion-he definitely got why I townread Elements but rather than disagreeing and calling it a day, responded with the strawman to keep going.

bork scumreads me in large part because he thinks I'm using 239 as a post-facto justification for my vote and that I reacted so strongly to 239 to dodge talking about it. This is absurd given my immediate response to 239, 242, separates the issues immediately and makes clear that my vote was for. Bork also literally just flat out refuses to acknowledge that 239 was even trying to undermine my point, which is

absolutely insane

It's not just a theoretical disagreement. My vote is not about him disagreeing with my Elements read at all.

in the kindest possible terms: you are being extremely unreasonable.

I don't see why having a scumread well before the argument happened is being unreasonable.

Like, if I'm wrong and unreasonable, oh well, but so far you've only explained why it's fine for bork to disagree with me on Elements, and I totally agree and never cared that he did that

In post 2023, notscience wrote:Why is peta town dgb?

Vax, I don’t get how your read on me being null would have any effect on my predecessor reading as scummy. Are you saying I’ve improved the read or you have no opinion on anything I’ve done? If it’s no opinion, would you like to engage me and change it?

I cant separate the 2. I tried, but I can't, and im not entirely sure I should, which is probably why I cant.

I like some of the things you have posted about. I don't really want to tell you those things because I don't trust you enough not to take that info and try to interact with me accordingly.

I realize town!notscience could want to do that as much as scum!notscience.

Do I want to engage you to change it?

No.

I don't.

I don't want to change it as it would feel like you would be making that change. I have no questions for you that need answers. I will engage with you when I do.

I hope this doesnt come off a rude, its just how I feel about the game, not you or anyone else for that matter, personally

In post 2029, Prism wrote:Peta's 1991 is also way too kind to me given the interpretation he's describing. I don't really agree with his word choice of "blew up", but the thought does not even pass through his mind that I blew up over something theoretical in order to be more aggressive as scum, something he's already indicated he's wary of.

I don't see him taking out of this that I blew up over something theoretical without him immediately doubting his read and wondering bork is right. My page 39 is more likely to come from town but is absolutely within my scumrange, and I have a hard time buying he has me town for anything else recent.

I'm town but this interpretation and me pivoting to him should be redflags and peta is barreling ahead on his townread completely undeterred. He's seen a bit more of my towngame but he is more paranoid of me than this for sure.

as i see it, there are three possibilities for what is going on right now:

1. you are catastrophically wrong in your read of me.
2. i am catastrophically wrong in my read of you, and you're scum trying to get me executed. i understand and fully recognize this is an approach you'd take
3. you're just shoving at me trying to get a rise out of me with a terrible case in the hope i'll give you some kind of reaction you can read me off of. i don't know why you'd think i would respond to that sort of thing in this particular game.

i would say my money is still currently on 1 being the case, but do some flickerings of paranoia and doubt exist? yes, absolutely, but i haven't let them creep into the main thread for the most part. the longer this goes on, the stronger the doubts get, because i have been approaching things with the belief that you're town and you'll figure me out eventually. the fact that that's not happening is worrisome, because i don't think there's signal degradation on my end and i feel like i've gotten better as the game has gone on. but it still hasn't been bad enough that i'd rule out the possibility of you being town, because in my estimation your capacity for being unreasonable is extremely high

Sorry I can't hear you I searched "can't be helped" and "helped" in your posts and now I'm reading crypto being mad in nightless

Okay I read it, if you're town I'm being unreasonable, glad we can shake on it

In post 2028, petapan wrote:

In post 2020, notscience wrote:With regards to your big long posts I’ve made similar posts as scum and as town before. I’ve seen others do similarly, but that’s besides the point. I could see an argument for NAI.

tbh, i never make that post as scum here. in a newbie game, i might make a similar post like that to make myself seem like a leader, because new players are going to respond favorably to someone who acts formal and officious-sounding. here, i wasn't expecting that. that is just an entirely serious post about strategy and how i want to approach this game.

What scum motivation is there? Creating a peacekeeper “sane voice of reason” persona this game feels like a pretty safe place for scum to occupy.

I’m scumreading you for it because given my experience with you (and I understand the differences between all three games) I found you more apt to give in to emotion and try to leverage it as scum.

why would that be necessary for me, though? at that moment i wasn't in any particular danger. some ambient reads putting me toward the bottom of the poe, but no

real

pressure anyway. as scum my first goal at any given moment is not "get townread". that's not a productive strategy (though i often do get townread from the way i play).

i can be an emotional player as both alignments, although this game i have been pretty sedate after getting out of my early-game mope (although prism is starting to piss me off). i think the newbie game we played together is a pretty poor baseline for my approach, for obvious reasons. i was in the game for barely any time at all before getting guiltied by a town PR. this threw me into an immediate confrontation, and i decided to counter claim and make a fight of it. this goes back to my roots as a player on epicmafia. there, the setups are open, typically night start, and with a small number of players (7-10). often the game will revolve around a day 1 investigative role claim, and to have any prayer of winning, a member of the mafia team pretty much has to counter-claim. i've done that CC battle literally hundreds of times. it is something i am extremely practiced in. i am always going to ratchet up the intensity in that situation because for most people, they will side with the loud voice.

i think you're showing a lack of understanding of how i approach the game as scum. here, the environment is completely different. it's a wide open field. everyone's still kind of trying to figure everyone else out. at any given moment as scum my number 1 goal is figuring out who i can push to get chopped. getting townies executed is how i win games. to that end, trying to defuse a toxic TvT fight as scum is phenomenally anti-wincon. any amount of "towncred" i would garner isn't worth it in comparison to taking 2 potential executions off the table. i laid out in that post i think that sort of fight is how towns lose games like this. you can absolutely bet i'd be looking to exploit it. it wouldn't be hard, either. here, i'm doing the opposite. i'm visibly trying to limit the amount of executions available by assembling a set of townreads i am hopeful can win the game. because i don't really expect scum to be easily "caught" here, so to speak. sure, i will often white knight a town player who is being pushed, but that's because i can't look like i'm willing to kill everyone, and at times like that i'm going to weakly posture against a wagon while hoping it goes through, and/or push a counter wagon on someone else, to establish another target. (or i might throw a weak bus vote on a teammate while not acting forcefully enough for the wagon to go through). here, i'm doing none of that. i just don't want prism and bork to burn everything down for no god damn reason.

in comparison to the strategy of trying to get townies killed, a single vaguely emotional paragraph where i talk about how the game is going to be difficult is, like...nothing. as a scum play it'd be pure dogshit.

Pondering how much weight this should bear in reading you.

In post 2034, Vaxkiller wrote:

In post 2023, notscience wrote:Why is peta town dgb?

Vax, I don’t get how your read on me being null would have any effect on my predecessor reading as scummy. Are you saying I’ve improved the read or you have no opinion on anything I’ve done? If it’s no opinion, would you like to engage me and change it?

I cant separate the 2. I tried, but I can't, and im not entirely sure I should, which is probably why I cant.

I like some of the things you have posted about. I don't really want to tell you those things because I don't trust you enough not to take that info and try to interact with me accordingly.

I realize town!notscience could want to do that as much as scum!notscience.

Do I want to engage you to change it?

No.

I don't.

I don't want to change it as it would feel like you would be making that change. I have no questions for you that need answers. I will engage with you when I do.

I hope this doesnt come off a rude, its just how I feel about the game, not you or anyone else for that matter, personally

Is this your approach to scumreads in general?

I think wagonomics are going to be tricky this game.

Okay, I'm reading Cabd/skitter/ffery after lunch, I'm saying this so that someone can hold me accountable

In post 2036, Prism wrote:Sorry I can't hear you I searched "can't be helped" and "helped" in your posts and now I'm reading crypto being mad in nightless

a classic. the origin story. town self-immolated in the space of 43 hours. remember to stop to reread in nightless, folks

(i love that you're trying to look for a linguistic tell that would've had to have persisted over 8 years)

I want Bork to do things then I think I’m ready to end the day.

Ffery, I’m giving you this heads up just in case- I was thinking more on syry’s AtE. I feel like I remember being it targeted just at us, and not Cabd and that twinges me a bit. Not enough to drop my read but enough that I want to say something about it. I’ll look more later to verify what I’m seeing/thinking.

In post 2043, notscience wrote:I want Bork to do things then I think I’m ready to end the day.

Ffery, I’m giving you this heads up just in case- I was thinking more on syry’s AtE. I feel like I remember being it targeted just at us, and not Cabd and that twinges me a bit. Not enough to drop my read but enough that I want to say something about it. I’ll look more later to verify what I’m seeing/thinking.

K. I felt like I was heading in the direction of a Syr townread when we had interaction earlier in the gameday. It put me off when he pushed back at Mod with the masons expansion bit. Nothing got resolved, but we haven't been active at the same time to speak of which makes resolution kinda difficult. :/

My immediate burn pile is {peta, bork, syr}

I’m talking potential buddy tells ffery. My read on Cabd is more on flux than my read on syr

In post 2046, notscience wrote:I’m talking potential buddy tells ffery. My read on Cabd is more on flux than my read on syr

I'll spare you my ongoing headspins.

In post 2038, fferyllt wrote:Pondering how much weight this should bear in reading you.

i think that is the most words i have written about the game of mafia and the most words i have written in a game of mafia

I mean, same. I’ve already hit on how some of what he’s done is a pretty viable way to play the game as scum