TMT/MS, TD, Vashoon/KBW (both of the last two vacillate from null-scum to scum). Can explain my reads if you like, but a lot of them are activity/behavior based. Possible side order of AJ, but I'm not sure I dislike him as much as the five above. 1450 pinged something fierce; I explain it in 1455. We can lynch don't as well, he's not contributed when he was here.
Cannot read worth a damn, from likelihood of scum motivation to least:
Rach (if she's not Town trollling, she might be scum), 2/BB (hydras are hard for me to read)
Null:
People not listed above or below
Null-town, from most Town to least:
Andrius (I'm not thrilled with his level of activity, but when he posts, he posts Town), Rev (I don't buy the whole argument that Sven would claim miller tracker and not be Town. Also, his VIness was a Town VIness, not scum being coy. That said, this read is mostly hinged on these two suspicions. He's not someone we can take to LYLO for example. Nacho will remember this, hopefully: remember when I lynched a Doctor Day 3 (Mute) because he protected twice in a row and I was paranoid. You were the scum IC that game. It's kinda like this with scum unlikely to perform a kill and everyone will question Rev's role for the rest of the game.) Sajin (had an early town read on him from his posts, particularly 294 when he pushed the lynch aggressively, but he's not been doing the same quality work)
Town, most to least:
Nacho, who generally has been working harder than anyone to figure shit out, Orc, who has been trying to direct Town traffic all game. GiF, who's asking the right questions--although, where'd he go?
aside from the utter clumsiness of rule breaking, how did your gambit work?
It confirmed Reverend as town for me, even if he's a really rude player.
Also, the way 2 interacted with it, wanting me to use it on him, then calling me retarded once I revealed what I was up to--that's pretty town, too.
So, ultimately, I got 2 town of it, which, frankly, is way better than the 1 tell it would've given me.
:3
I want to know how it worked though. buldermar's clever; perhaps he thought he could manipulate it.
map it out for me.
So, there's how I planned for it to work, and how it actually turned out.
I assume you understand what I was going with plan-wise.
If you don't, I'll lay it out here:
Spoiler:
Player X claims their character, alignment, flavor paragraph, win-con, and abilities.
Player Y, who is running this text, claims their character, alignment (minus PR), flavor paragraph, and win-con.
All of the other players can refer to the three bodies of text before them (X's claim, Y's truthful claim, and their own verified PM).
These other players, as a jury, can discern the rhetorical differences/similarities between X's claim, Y's claim, and their own PM, and can tell if X is lying.
This relies heavily on the person who wrote the PMs having consistent rhetoric, and writing the flavor rather than copy/pasting it.
In this game, though, I looked up things and figured that Bork had to have written the flavor, and that flavor seems pretty indicative of one's role.
Regardless, we'd have a better claim to work with, and it'd further confirm me as town.
I kinda knew this was sorta totally rules-breaking though, so...
What actually happened was that
I suggested an absurd gambit that was not rules-legal.
They didn't know that it wasn't, and so Reverend was willing to go through with it if it'd clear his name.
2 was interested in using it since he was being wagoned and would rather be revealed as town through it if it would work.
I revealed how it worked.
Bork immediately said it was not rules legal.
Reverend gave me hell for it, confirming he's likely town, since he put his faith in it.
2 (or Buildermar, at least) lost his mind and went so far as to call me retarded for suggesting it, as it seemed like a good way for 2 to get out of being wagon'd.
Both of their reactions and interests in it read as town to me.
/shrug.
WIFOM it if you want, but each player saw it as a way to finally confirm themselves as town (to some extent, at least), and were both quite upset that it was totally illegal.
Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:42 pm
by Varsoon
Ghostlin, can you explain your TMT read to me?
I think there could be scum there for my own reasons (most of which are incoherent and absurd and floating around in my head),
but I'd like to hear your reasons for TMT being at the top of your scum-list.
TD and Metal Sonic are the ones I can fully understand, based on your posts/interactions so far.
Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:51 pm
by Varsoon
GUY IN A FREEZER, COME BACK TO US. YOUR INACTIVITY READS AS SCUMMY TO ME AND OTHERS AND I'D LIKE YOU TO GIVE MORE REASONS FOR EVERYONE TO CONFIRM YOUR ALIGNMENT
Claiming vanillager is suspect at best, but I'm sure you do not do this every game(pulling this shit assumption out of my mouth, but yeah)
Why do you choose this style of play for this game?
Oh, I decided awhile ago that I'm claiming my alignment in every game I play.
It'll give me laughs and it'll be really funny whenever I finally roll scum and claim it immediately.
Of course, for the people who can't fathom why I'd do it, they WIFOM all over the place.
It's fun to watch people doubt you, when you're telling the truth. They'll scream and shout and run circles all because of one little truth.
You've seen how that's been in this game, neh? It's telling of alignments, I feel. It lets me get better reads on folks when I can say a truth and others foam at the mouth over it.
What is interesting is that you're quick to call me vanilla here and otherwise. I never claimed VT. Just said my role wasn't very cool.
For this game, I'm taking a bit of a hybrid approach. I'm pushing the buttons of players I know how to pressure, and I'm sussing out a few reads for myself and for others.
I don't think I've done a lot of work for town, unless they read my interactions and interpretations as confirming a few townies in.
I'd like to get a lynch in before the day ends, so I'll be a bit less fluff-posty, I suppose.
Not so fun when I actually ever get lynched lol. But yes I understand exactly how you work.
I have to go, but I'm impressed
But youre already town so
Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:59 pm
by Varsoon
Metal Sonic, on parting, I want to leave you with some suggestions:
If you're town, please post more and be more open about who you think is town and scum. Use your vote accordingly.
Furthermore, speak up when you notice things.
Also, ask other players questions that you feel will flesh out your reads/move the game forward.
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am
by Ghostlin
Varshoon, I'm going to do this in four of his posts. The rest are kind of too shallow for me to do much with. Here's his initial reads post:
In post 1036, GuyInFreezer wrote:In case I wasn't clear enough, I'm asking player-wise.
You know. Like "who did what so he's suspicious." Kind of stuff.
Ok. Let's go.
²: If it's ok, I'm going to read ² as one person and not two separate people. Same goes for Beast.
² is scum
to me because he reads TD as scum with little to no base and seems to be ignoring TD's more towny posts.
Aj The Epic:
Null-Scum
. I perceive AtE in #945 but that's pretty much it.
Andrius: Null, lack of posts.
BeautyAndTheBeast: Town. Reading well and catching things and no scumreads as of yet.
BROseidon: No reads as of yet.
Cabd:
Null-Scum
, mainly for not specifying reads in #931.
dntfkingcare: Null, lack of posts.
Ghostlin: After an ISO after Varsoon's read,
scummy
.
GuyInFreezer: Town. No scumreads. I like you asking questions.
jon_h61: no posts.
Mac: Town for the most part, but look at his #811, #821, and #831. Detailed analysis AJ is scummy, waits for nacho to vote, then says he's "considering" voting as well?!?!?
Metal Sonic: Null (no posts)
orcinus_theoriginal: Town. No scumreads, and acts and reads town.
RachMarie: Agree with Mac's #1010. Seems to be ignoring large portions of the game.
Sajin: Null.
Svenskt Stål: Active lurking, seemingly. Active early on but quieter now.
Lingering scumreads
from the claim and such.
Nachomamma8: Null. Towny early in game, but I feel a little less so about that.
TiphaineDeath: Town, scummy early in game, but did a 180
TMTOLBTWNTOF: No comment
Varsoon: Null, I'm finding it hard to read him.
P EDIT
Gif- I did not "disappear," I was reading all 42 pages and typing this read post the whole goddamn time.
No vote. At this point his primary scum reads I could tell are me and 2, and he couldn't place a vote on either of us. This is a post we've literally been waiting pages for, and he's not secure enough in his reads to plop down a vote?
Hey TMT, mind joining us? I seem to think you have developed a couple of votes and produced a lot more null reads last time around.
Most of my null reads are because of the fact that certain people haven't posted a lot and most of it was low-content.
Ok I've gone over my scumreads and decided which one was scummiest, and it's between 2 and Aj. At this point I believe it's VOTE: Aj
Also, Ghostlin is not scum
P-edit Metal give reasons now plz
This post is bad when you consider he's not talked about AJ for a while and his reasoning for not liking AJ is AtE in one post in his reads posts. Yes, it can be an indicator that individual is not scum hunting, and a scum player freaking out all over town. Also, I'm thrilled he considers me not scum now as of this post, but there's not much logic as to why not. I can deduce he's sheeping a lot of folks who changed from scum or vocally said I was Town about this range of posts/pages.
In post 1461, TheReverend wrote:Ok jon is clearly not scum, unless he's deliberately being quiet so he can pretend to have forgotten the game. No-one forgets a game in which they're scum.
Am I the only one that thinks this is suuuuuper scummy
Also GIF did you ask me a question that I did not answer
Also did anyone else ask me a question that I did not answer
At best, this is reaching. At worst he's trying to accuse the Rev of being scum because he said you don't forget games which you are scum. Which is true--I sorta explain this in another post.
The problem is not the fact that AJ went into this town pile. Where's the vote on 2? Where's a vote at all?
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:07 am
by Ghostlin
Summation of TMT case:
His pushes have been soft when he's pushed at all and make no sense towards any meaningful scum hunting. He's suspected 2 over at least two posts but has yet to vote them (it's a hydra). He does jump off AJ with little reasoning, but his soft push towards 2 seems to be weak without any meaning. He's not really scum hunting, and his opinions about certain players seems to match the temperature of the room at the time (myself, AJ, 2). It's pretty likely he's scum, and he's giving out other tells, such as being quiet and waiting for his wagon (the second highest lynch wagon right now besides 2) to pass. While I find 2 hard to read, if TMT goes down today as scum, the likelihood of 2 scum goes up.
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:10 am
by Ghostlin
Prediction:
TMT will not vote 2 unless pressured or at the end of the day when he can claim 'Town points' for hammering them.
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:32 am
by Varsoon
That's good and all, but 2's not scum and I won't see 2's wagon go to lynch if I have any say in it.
I agree with your points moreso than the fact that you see him not using his vote as much. What's important is that he seems to be using his vote to earn towncred, rather than pressuring scum-suspects, etc. The disparity between how he votes and how 2 votes is the difference between towniness and scuminess.
I'll give the TMT wagon more thought, although what you've provided is pretty insightful and damning. I'd like to see how TMT responds to this, if at all.
Ghostlin, to be honest,
What scares me the most isn't the obvious scum.
It's the scum who shake your hand and point out who's not town and do all the work for town.
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:44 am
by Mac
Varsoon; you knew your gambit wouldn't work?
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:46 am
by Varsoon
In post 2112, Mac wrote:Varsoon; you knew your gambit wouldn't work?
I knew that it was likely not rules legal.
I suppose the 'true' gambit was going through with everything and how it ended up.
At any point, I could have said 'nevermind'.
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:48 am
by Mac
if you had gone through with this gambit, how do you know that 2/Rev could not have manipulated it to their advantage?
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:49 am
by Mac
also you knew it was not rules legal, so if bork hadn't been around to say no, Rev may have gone through with it and got himself modkilled?
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:58 am
by Varsoon
In post 2114, Mac wrote:if you had gone through with this gambit, how do you know that 2/Rev could not have manipulated it to their advantage?
If it was rules legal, there's not really any way to manipulate it, as it's up to the rest of town to read the claims side-by-side and decide if the player being scrutinized had done anything to change what they'd been sent via PM instead of copy/pasting it.
But it wasn't rules legal, so, speculation on how it would have turned out/could have been manipulated are pretty moot.
In post 2115, Mac wrote:also you knew it was not rules legal, so if bork hadn't been around to say no, Rev may have gone through with it and got himself modkilled?
Honestly, I hadn't considered if it was or wasn't rules legal the very first time I mentioned it. Later on, I stopped talking about it because I realized it was probably a bad idea. I finally decided to 'use' it (say I was going to do something breaking the rules and then pull back on it) to see how people would respond.
If Rev got modkilled, then it'd either end with dead scum or miller out of the game without the waste of a lynch.
I'd say that's a win/win.
Although, to be honest, getting Rev Modkilled was not my intention.
TMT/MS, TD, Vashoon/KBW (both of the last two vacillate from null-scum to scum). Can explain my reads if you like, but a lot of them are activity/behavior based. Possible side order of AJ, but I'm not sure I dislike him as much as the five above. 1450 pinged something fierce; I explain it in 1455. We can lynch don't as well, he's not contributed when he was here.
Cannot read worth a damn, from likelihood of scum motivation to least:
Rach (if she's not Town trollling, she might be scum), 2/BB (hydras are hard for me to read)
Null:
People not listed above or below
Null-town, from most Town to least:
Andrius (I'm not thrilled with his level of activity, but when he posts, he posts Town), Rev (I don't buy the whole argument that Sven would claim miller tracker and not be Town. Also, his VIness was a Town VIness, not scum being coy. That said, this read is mostly hinged on these two suspicions. He's not someone we can take to LYLO for example. Nacho will remember this, hopefully: remember when I lynched a Doctor Day 3 (Mute) because he protected twice in a row and I was paranoid. You were the scum IC that game. It's kinda like this with scum unlikely to perform a kill and everyone will question Rev's role for the rest of the game.) Sajin (had an early town read on him from his posts, particularly 294 when he pushed the lynch aggressively, but he's not been doing the same quality work)
Town, most to least:
Nacho, who generally has been working harder than anyone to figure shit out, Orc, who has been trying to direct Town traffic all game. GiF, who's asking the right questions--although, where'd he go?
WAAAAIIIT a minute. how do you have nacho and orc down as town for the reasons you gave and me as scum when they are both sheeping my reads? like how does that even work?
also @ varsoon
you keep putting us in town and then you are putting us as scum and there is zero progression of your read. explain
This'll be easier with you than most other players, actually.
I want a full claim from you, including the flavor paragraph and character that you are.
This shouldn't be hard, since you already claimed and all that.
In post 1809, TheReverend wrote:Alright, whatever. I'll maybe take your anti-town comments on board if you flip town. Maybe. I still think you're scum, I find it strange that you're not applying any pressure on me. I'd expect townies to be extremely wary of me, because of my tracker modifier. Mollie is on the ball when she worries about a scum tracker. Like I said earlier, town thought process. Scum know I'm miller. Townies do not know. You don't seem to be interacting with me in a way that makes me believe you don't know what my role is. Therefore, I think you're scum. So my vote stays.
You inherited my read on svenskt, which went to pretty strong town when he replaced out. Prior to that I was willing to wait a day and see how my read shaped up. Our vote is on someone we agree looks scummy.
- f
Wait, wait, wait.
How does scum know he's miller?
Because, as far as I know, scum would only know who other scum is.
I guess he means that scum can infer that he's miller because they know he's town and he claimed miller?
Still, blah, I had a townread on sven and I'm way less sure about Rev.
In post 1814, ² wrote:I recommend paraphrasing the shit out of that stuff because mod kill. Also, suggest you guys check with bork before proceeding.
- f
Doesn't work if he paraphrases.
It -should- be rules legal, given that he's not taking a screen-cap, etc.
Because there's nothing that lets us know if he's 100% quoting the PM, right?
P-Edit:
Ah well.
My idea was to counterclaim with my PM, minus role, and then third parties could confirm that the rhetoric fits, etc.
/shrug
It -would- work if it was rules legal, but I guess not.
In post 1817, Varsoon wrote:Makes me think--in a Lylo situation, all players could quote their role PMs directly, and the one guy who isn't modkilled is the scum, because he would have to lie or be modkilled. Then again, I guess if everyone is modkilled, there's no one to lynch the remaining scum.
In post 2058, Keybladewielder wrote:Haven't paid much attention to Orc or 2,, but Nacho literally always plays the same from what Ive seen. So nulln o him
It's beautiful that Orc and 2 have made the most posts in this game but they're also usually in null piles or are pretty controversially read.
this is a lie
Drawing attention to this
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 2:37 am
by BeautyAndTheBeast
In post 2045, Cabd wrote:You have no opinion about Orc, Nacho, or 2?
Like, the three most active players?
are you even reading this game? I have been actively working with orc, nacho and mac and 2 is scum.
This is feigned anger. Yet another scum tell. Does anyone think he's actually pissed with me because I ran a case vs him? I don't see why he'd be pissed if he's town.
I'm like 95% sure we have scum here in varsoon. I'm certainly willing to put my vote there.
vote - varsoon
If town doesn't want to swing for varsoon, I think I like an AJ lynch over 2 for this reason...
In post 675, Varsoon wrote:@Orc: Man, what do you have against me? I'd rather be your friend.
Also, why bring up something like "AJ or Varsoon, the guy who sheeped him", when in 367 you do the same thing with your vote?
I feel like you're scum-slipping, and you're trying too hard to play town-leader.
An AJ scum flip will look really bad for varsoon imo.
"Yeah, let's set up lynches, that way, when I bus my partner, we can lynch out a free town."
Or you're just working on faulty logic.
The correlation between AJ and me is poorly founded here, since I'm making reference to something Orc said. If you'd pay attention, I've had AJ as scummy for most of the game here, and if he flips scum, then I'm right. I'm a bit hesitant to say it's 100% scum slot, since I could see town motivation in some of his posts.
I'm glad that you can 'read' emotions from text, or tell that it's feigned anger or not.
Thanks for the vote, hope my wagon goes over the hill and you feel really stupid on my flip.
Although, as I've learned, most players of this game have no humility, nor do they ever blush.
This'll be easier with you than most other players, actually.
I want a full claim from you, including the flavor paragraph and character that you are.
This shouldn't be hard, since you already claimed and all that.
In post 1809, TheReverend wrote:Alright, whatever. I'll maybe take your anti-town comments on board if you flip town. Maybe. I still think you're scum, I find it strange that you're not applying any pressure on me. I'd expect townies to be extremely wary of me, because of my tracker modifier. Mollie is on the ball when she worries about a scum tracker. Like I said earlier, town thought process. Scum know I'm miller. Townies do not know. You don't seem to be interacting with me in a way that makes me believe you don't know what my role is. Therefore, I think you're scum. So my vote stays.
You inherited my read on svenskt, which went to pretty strong town when he replaced out. Prior to that I was willing to wait a day and see how my read shaped up. Our vote is on someone we agree looks scummy.
- f
Wait, wait, wait.
How does scum know he's miller?
Because, as far as I know, scum would only know who other scum is.
I guess he means that scum can infer that he's miller because they know he's town and he claimed miller?
Still, blah, I had a townread on sven and I'm way less sure about Rev.
In post 1814, ² wrote:I recommend paraphrasing the shit out of that stuff because mod kill. Also, suggest you guys check with bork before proceeding.
- f
Doesn't work if he paraphrases.
It -should- be rules legal, given that he's not taking a screen-cap, etc.
Because there's nothing that lets us know if he's 100% quoting the PM, right?
P-Edit:
Ah well.
My idea was to counterclaim with my PM, minus role, and then third parties could confirm that the rhetoric fits, etc.
/shrug
It -would- work if it was rules legal, but I guess not.
In post 1817, Varsoon wrote:Makes me think--in a Lylo situation, all players could quote their role PMs directly, and the one guy who isn't modkilled is the scum, because he would have to lie or be modkilled. Then again, I guess if everyone is modkilled, there's no one to lynch the remaining scum.
Everything you quoted me as saying was said by AJ.
My bad. I was reading too quick to catch up and failed a quote cut.
@AJ then, Where is TmT confirmed scum?
Ghostlin beat me to the punch, but my main reasons were his 8 null reads (of 18 possible from his perspective), his general passiveness to not be seen at all, relatively no opinions whatsoever, and general lurkiness. These are all null-to-scum tells individually. (I don't want to re-quote his iso, which is still on this page)
