Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Dunnstral]

I don't understand what you guys mean when you say flipping truth helps us figure out Glitch/Nauci

[Nauci]

I get the sense that he doesn't go after GuiltyLion if he were scum.

I think he's being scumread for largely NAI reasons (NAI for him), like forgetting to use his vote. He also generally seems to be a lynchbaity type of player who gets mislynched a lot

Didn't quote the whole thing because it was a very large quote post but CSF is giving me pause here WRT NDMath and I'll give it a little more benefit of the doubt based on those mislynches

IDK why quoting removes links

[Nauci]

I don't understand what you guys mean when you say flipping truth helps us figure out Glitch/Nauci

I'm the only one who said that fwiw

I just feel like Glitch's interactions and posts about Truth would be a lot more AI if I knew what alignment Truth actually is

I similarly have stronger interactions w/ Truth than other players here just from today

[Nauci]

VOTE: osuka

I think I prefer this over Glitch, who I'm not sure isn't just new town who scumreads people for not explaining reads.

Mainly sheeping Nauci's metacase tbh. I also think him forgetting to use his vote is scum indicative

Man I'm bummed I wasn't around to see people sheep my case in real time

[Nauci]

The extra dot isn't a crumb. Don't let mafia tell you that weird things are the crumb for my mason buddies. My crumb or crumbs will be very obvious and my buddies helped me make them. There shouldn't be any doubt which ones are the real ones after I die. Hopefully!

So many brilliant players in this game but it still managed to be a 1:1 ratio to crazy lmao

[Nauci]

how the fuck is mafia supposed to know you're mason? mafia has no setup knowledge other than their own roles

you seem to gravely misunderstand some very core concepts of this game

If he is in fact a mason, it's pretty natural to assume that mafia would know he's town and therefore likely not lying about being a

mason

of all things

I still like the Osuka vote, none of his latest bursts of post felt all that town and this one was really bad shade-for-sake-of-shade

Do you think osuka could be making sure I'm actually a mason and not lying in that post? Like he's mafia and wants to kill me if I'm a mason but wants to keep questioning me just to make sure. I think this another reason to think he is mafia.

This is such a dense post that it hurts

I think hypotheticals are a little too much for you to handle right now, so for the first part of the post assume I’m town and for the second, assume I’m scum.

Let’s start with town. How am I lying in that post? What am I trying to accomplish? Why am I doing any of what I’m doing in that post?

Now, assume I’m scum. How am I not lying in that post? If I wanted to kill you, why wouldn’t I just do it since you keep claiming mason anyway? If I

did

want to make sure you’re mason, how is that post supposed to accomplish that? Why would I “keep questioning to make sure” when I know for a fact that that line of questioning has diminishing returns (i.e., we’re all as sure as we’re gonna be about your claim, however sure that is, until someone else claims mason or we get a revealing flip, neither of which is going to happen d1) and I’d only be exposing myself for no reason?

You seem to have a very shallow understanding or how scum plays the game

You said it yourself. You said mafia don't know I'm mason which would mean you're thinking about how mafia might think I'm a lying neighbour or something. It sounds to me that you are that mafia that thinks I might be lying which is why you continue to push and question me. If you think there's no point right now then why do you keep falling back to me?

Christ we should have PLed this

[Nauci]

Slogging through all of Quick's stupid arguments w/ people is exhauuuuusting

[Blair]

So, I reread Day 2 (side note: Day 2 was pretty short, everyone should do this) and it might just be:

{Glitch | Looker}

There's room in there for NDMath to sub for Glitch or Truth to sub for Looker, but I feel strongest about Glitch/Looker right now.

Dunnstral may actually be town

for once.

Here's a summary of the relevant events of Day 2, in order:

• Norwe naked votes Popo right out the gate
  
• Truth votes Popo
  
• Norwe claims an unspecified investigation
  
• Blair votes Popo
  
• Popo claims VT
  
• Norwe claims Gunsmith with guilty on Popo
  
• Glitch votes Popo <--- Post 1643, must-read!
  
• NDMath "spiritually" (but not actually) votes Popo
  
• Popo claims 2-shot Vigilante
  
• Blair unvotes and begins interrogating Popo
  
• Blair suggests no counterclaim, real vig can shoot Popo if he's lying
  
• Blair votes NDMath, proposes Popo shoot Truth
  
• Popo votes NDMath
  
• Looker votes Popo <--- Post 1694, must-read!
  
• Nauci votes NDMath
  
• NDMath opposes plan to vig Truth
  
• Nauci agrees with logic on vig'ing Truth
  
• Popo refuses to shoot Truth
  
• Popo shares his PoE: {Looker / Dunnstral / NDMath} <--- 7th Circle of WIFOM Hell
  
• Dunnstral supports vig not counterclaiming, opposes choosing Popo's shot
  
• Truth agrees with Dunnstral, asks Blair (!) not to shoot him
  
• Truth votes no lynch
  
• Glitch questions Truth about his Popo read <--- Post 1751
  
• Glitch confirms scumread on Popo
  
• Dunnstral affirms he is opposed to lynching Popo, as real vig will shoot if he's lying
  
• Glitch moves vote to Truth
  
• Looker opposes Blair's plan, doesn't trust her or Popo <--- Post 1768
  
• Dunnstral disagrees with Norwe, says real vig should not claim
  
• Blair counterclaims, votes Popo
  
• Dunnstral votes Popo
  
• Popo votes Blair
  
• Looker posts just to say he doesn't understand why Dunnstral asked him for self-meta, no comment on counterclaim
  
• Dunnstral compares Looker's play to his scum meta
  
• Popo self-hammers

[Blair]

Glitch confirms scumread on Popo

*Truth confirms scumread on Popo

[Blair]

It's worth noting that after doing all that:

A.) NDMath also looks pretty bad

B.) It's pretty much impossible to draw conclusions about Nauci from Day 2.

[Nauci]

Mother of god I'm not reading 1276 and none of you can make me

[Nauci]

B.) It's pretty much impossible to draw conclusions about Nauci from Day 2.

Not game-related ones at least

[Nauci]

Osuka why are you not voting?

VOTE: csf

happy?

I think I have a dilemma: The people I "townread" (for lack of a better term) most all have cats in their avatar (Nauci, CSF, Truth). And the person I want to lynch most (GuiltyLion) has a

fake

cat in his avatar. Am I biased toward cats?

how did this not get voted on d1

[Nauci]

Should we hammer osuka now? I would like to get to the next day.

Reminder for doctors to protect me please!

do you see this shit? this is a scumpost

there is a wagon most people are happy with on L-1 and there are days until deadline AND there is a very active discussion happening around said wagon. If this is not a very deliberate attempt at ending discussion early, i don't know what is

ok but does scum truth really claim mason miller in his first post? why?

do you think he is scum, but in a hood, and just claimed mason instead of hood for some reason?

or do you think there is no hood at all, and he is just scum making a gambit that will get him lynched as soon as we mass claim?

furthermore, do you really think truth, who is a new player, tries an audacious fakeclaim like this in his first post of the game?

HMMMM

[Nauci]

I am trying hard to follow and understand the push against osuka, for real, but it's just not clicking with me. I've had him null for so long and still going through his iso there's so many things that pull me both directions I just have such a null read on him. His lack of voting is sketch at best, and yet these posts are spot on:

The only noteworthy read of Osuka right now is CSF!Scum. And he's basically done nothing to convince us of it other than say "he be playing scummy". And saying scum is on his wagon. (no indication of who though)

i honestly don't know for sure who exactly is scum on the wagon, but i can tell you for a fact that it either started with scum motivation, or was put into overdrive by scum. As previously pointed out by someone other than me, wagons rarely pick up this quickly and sustain themselves for this long without some scum motivation

Should we hammer osuka now? I would like to get to the next day.

Reminder for doctors to protect me please!

do you see this shit? this is a scumpost

there is a wagon most people are happy with on L-1 and there are days until deadline AND there is a very active discussion happening around said wagon. If this is not a very deliberate attempt at ending discussion early, i don't know what is

I don't think there's enough valid content from osuka to make a definite judgement that he is scum, while there is even more reason now to suspect Cat Scratch. Can we break down CSF's progression on osuka?

Spoiler: Cat Scratch Fever on osuka

lol this game is going to be a clash of egos huh

I'm townreading Norway and I think osuka is townish. Still think Quick is prob town but he seems to have trouble getting his point across

VOTE: guiltylion

I think Quick and Osuka are TvT right now, and this back and forth is rapidly growing tiring to follow. Why don't we all hug it out and vote GuiltyLion or something

Why are they both town?

As for your leads questions, I was suspecting osuka before that if you check my earlier posts.

Based on their back and forth, I think they both believe in their pushes. I can also understand why they each scumread the other even though I disagree with it.

They're both independently towny as well. Quick has demonstrated that he has an unusual process of scumhunting, and I think his process is hard to fake.

I'm gut townreading osuka.

Why is osuka scummy for thinking you could be lying about being a mason but not wanting to take the risk of pushing you? A lot of people have expressed disbelief in your mason claim yet no one is pushing for your lynch off the top of my head.

Holy shit

So here there is a push for more votes on guilty. He's never called guilty even scummy tho? But he's voted for him and called for others to vote him.

Uh yeah, I saw a shitshow of what I thought was TvT and did not want Osuka and Quick to continue arguing back and forth with each other and instead combine our votes to form a pressure wagon on someone who was conspicuously missing.

Then he votes for me, with no explanation of either his original guilty read or his new vote on me. He provided a reason for the vote on me when I pressed him.

If you want an explanation, you can just ask instead of making assumptions. Is this a newbie game where we scumread people for not explaining things?

I thought Guilty's meta defense of himself was convincing enough. His posting rate is higher as town than scum, and his contributions here pushed me to think he's town.

As of page 35, I don't scumread Nauci anymore

holy shit haha

and

I

thought i was late to this game

?

I was effectively inactive from this game for the last few days and was catching up

this is a completely meaningless post

VOTE: osuka

I think I prefer this over Glitch, who I'm not sure isn't just new town who scumreads people for not explaining reads.

Mainly sheeping Nauci's metacase tbh. I also think him forgetting to use his vote is scum indicative

UNVOTE:

I would like time to think if scum!osuka would go all-in on Truth here before he claims

and also there's like 3 people who haven't said anything about the osuka wagon lately

Let's break each quote down.

• 221 - Early game towered on osuka
  
• 276 - Reads the Quick v Osuka fight as TvT
  
• 280 - osuka is Towny independent of the Quick v Osuka fight,
  AND
  is Towny because he’s TvT,
  AND
  on top of that he is gut reading osuka as town
  
• 562 - Reaffirms TvT read on osuka/Quick
  
• Absolutely nothing
  from CSF regarding osuka for the next 500+ posts
  
• 1107 - osuka throws a little shade in Cat’s direction
  
• 1118 - osuka throws more shade at Cat
  
• 1147 -
  Cat Scratch out of the blue votes for osuka
  openly sheeping Nauci and for not using his vote.
  
• 1425 - Unvotes when the wagon gets serious and there’s an actual chance of lynching osuka.

This reads as shit. Clear TR on osuka while it's easy up to halfway through the game, then drop off and say nothing about him. Let a long time pass and then as soon as osuka pushes even a little bit on you, you vote against him for bs reasons. That's some scummy shit setting yourself up to be able to say, "Well I had good reasons, Nauci just said them already," but that's just an easy excuse not to make your own case or bring original content or reasoning to the table. Why we would lynch osuka who is confusing AF as opposed to CSF who is clearly scum doesn't make sense to me.

Additionally, I think osuka makes a strong, pro-town point in the second quote at the top (1411). Earlier in the thread there was a discussion on why it's pro-town

not

to use all of our time, and I think I read a counter argument that it is pro-town to use the time if we have it. Muddying up the waters with tons of posts that make it hard for us to go back and read is not a solid argument, though, for ending a day early. The way I see it you have two options that determine whether or not ending the day early is pro-town or not.

First, if the discussion is dragging out, dying, and stalled... then yes, it is pro-town to end the day and keep things moving. If town is not in the drivers seat and no one is driving at all it gives scum an opportunity to take the reigns and control the conversation, spam up the thread, and wait it out until the end of the day when everyone panic-votes themselves into a mislynch. Second scenario, discussion is alive and active with strong content being produced and active gameplay dominated every RL day. This creates an difficult environment for the scum to survive, because they're forced to participate in the open or be suspected for trying to coast under the radar. It gives us more opportunity to evaluate our options and avoid a mislynch. For example, hypothetically I'm thinking if so many are on board with an osuka lynch (one that isn't totally solid), then it is

pro-mafia

to try and end the day early rather than giving everyone time to sort through this case and giving osuka a chance to explain. It is pro-town to take more time to let the scum hang their own noose, like I have clearly set out above with Cat Scratch's cheap shift onto osuka that we would not have had a chance to dive into had we ended the day early.

So it's not a hard-and-fast rule that ending the day early is pro-town. It is pro-town to let the day go on until we are confident in a scum lynch, and if that means it takes a long time, that's fine. If we get to that point sooner rather than later and there's not much more to talk about, then end the day early and get to business. But the latter is not the case in our game. If it creates more content for us to sift through and makes our job harder because we have to do more reading, then man up and just deal with it. You have more stuff to evaluate. That's a good thing. Maybe this is just a longer game that takes more time than a normal one. Don't be lazy, work hard to find the right lynch.

Vote stays on CSF and I'd encourage y'all to move your votes too.

This post feels pretty towny to me

I mean, I've seen scum be against the lynch last minute for town cred, but never to this degree of effort and explaining their train of thought so clearly

[Nauci]

the fact that you didnt engage my slot for 500 posts means that either your read on me is fabricated, or you had a scumread on me that you literally never thought to discuss with town. I find the second one much more difficult to believe

Wow Osuka, never even considering the concept that I just cased you so well that everyone simply had to agree

(FR though, the way that the wagon built up after I went V/LA was suuuuuuusss)

[Nauci]

I think you will find it difficult to demonstrate from my ISO that I am advocating for shortening the day.

I am advocating for narrowing our lynch pool and rolling our sleeves up to get serious about who we are going to lynch today, because these things take time and it's usually good practice for town to have a pretty good idea of who the lynch will be between by this point in the day.

Blair I thought you would know by now that we don't engage with Quick, we just sort him by his crackpot theories and pat him on the head

There is only one situation: The game.

Norwe suggested the situation was that it was time to settle on something.

Given that no one was calling for his head for saying so, I accepted his assessment.

P-edit: I see he's still going. For anyone who thinks I'm being petty here, please review the Blair/Quick ISO from the time I subbed in. Quick has been throwing shade at me (not just game-related, "maybe this is scummy" shade - actual personal shade) persistently - even when I'm having unrelated conversations with other players, he's still taking pot-shots at me. It's tiring.

Don't say I didn't try

[Nauci]

Do you think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you here?

You have some gall to ask this question when your entire game has been lackluster and full of fluff. Do

you

think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you? What are you top pro-town moves in this game? Sheeping onto wagons with no thoughts of your own?

This is some whataboutism bs

whether or not you think that CSF has been posting well has no bearing on CSF's question to Osuka

[Nauci]

I think I'm town because:
- I try to understand people's thought processes. If I were scum, why would I bother engaging osuka in this scenario? osuka was at L-1 and multiple people had stated they were ready to end the day.
--- do you think I'm engaging people in good faith?

- I actually have real-time interactions instead of just posting in thread and ducking out
--- My stances are clear, and if you need them explained, I can explain them to you without having to think for a long time like I do as scum

- I take the time to look at people's past games like GL, popo and NDMath

- I don't care how I look, e.g. by putting popo to L-2.

I disagree that I'm a fluffposter. Maybe this was true early game or even mid game, but by now, I think I've posted enough readable content.

My meta is available for everyone to see. I even alt slipped

1. Engaging osuka:

If you were town, you'd do it because you were scum hunting. If you were scum, you'd engage osuka because scum's job is to be undetected and when osuka flips town you'll be able to point back to this and say, "Look how town I was, I was really trying to figure out if he was scum and I was just wrong." There's a motivation both ways so your first point is NAI.

2. Good faith:

I appreciate your level head and how you have been respectful, calm, and chill this entire game treating people fairly. Your lack of enthusiasm and emotion in your pushes aren't a towntell though.

3. Real time interactions instead of post and run:

fair point, I'll give you this one.

4. Clear stances you can clarify:

"Details available upon request" is still hella scummy to me. It's an easy way to coast through the game as scum only having to take a stand when asked to, rather than being willing to push the envelope like a true townie would.

5. You read meta:

cool story, not all of us have that much time and your life giving you the time to do that is NAI

6. You don't care how bad you look:

this is an easy argument to make as scum when you've messed up and done something stupid, and then you're like, "Oh look at me, I don't care how bad I look, I'm a townie!" LAMIST and NAI

So really the only valid point I'm taking away from this is #3. Depending on the player, I would read that as NAI as well because scum could make the same argument that they're engaging in real time interactions and that makes them look towny. Sure they're under more pressure but good scum should be able to do that. The reason I'm giving you some leeway is that your playstyle doesn't seem to fit with scum playing real time and being under all that pressure unless you're good at conning people, which you could be but it would be a little bit of a stretch in my mind.

I'm still willing to make that stretch because of the rest of the points I've made in my case against you though. I don't read anyone as scummy as I do you even when I take your point #3 into consideration. It's a stretch I'm willing to make and risk because literally everything else points to you as scum.

wow this post was awful

It reads to me like:

-NAI behavior, I'm going to choose to scum read you for it

-NAI behavior, but I'm still going to scum read you for it

-Okay, that one is towny, true

-I'm too lazy for meta diving so no points for you

-NAI, I'm going to assume it's scummy

Anyway a good scum player can fake that one towney thing so I think you're scummy

[Nauci]

Talking to you is like talking to a tree.

Trees are far more pleasant to talk at

[Nauci]

I have a guilty on Popopo. Happy?

Why do TPR keep letting Quick do this

[Looker]

I'm townreading Nauci and Glitch, it's between NDmath, Truth, and Looker for me

How much longer can Blair live before you start to suspect her?

---

• I think Nauci is noncommittal.
  
• I feel she's pseudo-distancing with Truth - she says she thinks he's scum, but she doesn't look like she's trying to flip him. She looks like she's hedging her bets on no one forming a wagon on him. If they do, she gets to jump on, saying "Well I suspected him the whole time".
  
• Blair's lying - I interact with everybody. Not everyone squats over their phone all day, looking at a fucking mafia thread. I don't know what these expectations are that I'm not meeting.
  
• I'd hope Nauci saying I'm either crazy or stupid would be beneath her.
  
• So Blair thinks I avoided mislynching Osuka, but bussed popopo?
  • And, depending on who she "vigged", she agreed with either my or Glitch's suspicions. I suspected GuiltyLion, Glitch suspected Cat Scratch Fever. The double standard isn't making sense to me.
• I question whether Nauci coached Truth in the scum PT, because her Post 2112 resembles Truth's Post 619, where he urged other people to start bandwagons that he was not going to be a part of.

[Dunnstral]

Looker, there are no mafia vigilantes in normal queue games - it's not a role combination that can exist
There can also be no serial killers in mini normals

It's confirmed that the extra killing power came from town

[Dunnstral]

I feel like I've said this already

[Nauci]

vigilante shooting town n1, seems about right