Mafiascum.net

↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:

↑ The Fonz wrote:
I mean yeah, of course you going out of your way to link a player I think is town to a known scum looks scummy to me. Particularly when you weren't exactly proactive about getting the known scum lynched. Scum try to tie town players to their partners all the time, it's a really common thing to do. (On the flipside, if Lissa is scum, that pretty much clears you). I mean, that's scumhunting, right? Your response really confuses me.

I think it's weak scumhunting because you're predicating it on an unknown that could go either way - Lissa's alignment. It also seems like you think that as a townie I couldn't possibly mis-read Lissa (if she did flip town) in a way that makes it likely she is teamed with Honey. It's like you're trying to paint me as scum for POTENTIALLY having a bad read. Do you see my point?

Well, no? I'm not saying you couldn't possibly have thought, or still think, Lissa was/is scum. But this response reads like you think I'm not allowed to draw any inferences from your behaviour in relation to Lissa and Honey until we get a Lissa flip, and that's absurd. I'm saying that I believe Lissa much more likely town than scum, and that tying town to partners is something scum often do. Therefore, the explanation 'Anatole is scum trying to tie Lissa to his partner' is reasonably plausible. That's not the same as me saying it's definitely the case, or that there's no way you could possibly have seen a Lissa/Honey connection as likely as town, which seems to be what you're suggesting.

And yeah, Honey had like 7 posts when I voted her and I had a few other scum prospects so I didn't push it hard. It was a good hunch and as I've said a bunch of times, it mostly came to me because of her artificial posting (you described Lissa's play as "me-tooing") which I saw her as having in common with Lissa.

Well yeah. Again, I'm not saying there's no plausible way a town would act like you did? Very few scum act in a way that's completely implausible for town. Quite a lot of town (see: FourTrouble) act in ways that seem more likely to come from scum. We're dealing with inductive, not deductive logic here. You're attributing to me a black and white worldview and a categorical view of your play that just don't exist.

I think it just bugs me more because you're precluding Lissa from being scum for reasons that I don't really agree with.

Or at least saying she's "much more likely town" for her reaction to 5-off in the neighborhood.

I hadn't thought of this before, but I'm actually wondering if scum have fakeclaims in this setup (I have no idea whether or not it would have occurred to Nat to do that)

but if they do, it kinda makes the Lissa neighborhood argument way weaker

-b

↑ Cutty Shark wrote:

↑ The Fonz wrote:Both F-16 and Nashville feel town on the night stuff - Nashville's impetuous vote for F-16 feels town-motivated, and if F-16 really wasn't in control of himself (which is what the combination of his post - offered before mine - and my night result suggest) then he probably isn't scum, at least not knowingly.

I agree with the F-16 stuff here.
I still want to eventually know why F-16 was Nashville's target for what appears to be a tracker shot. I am aware of Titus' "it's not protown to discuss" answer but I obviously don't understand why that is.

-b

My implication was that F16 was in total control. We had to be drugged to not remember the night.


It is not protoen to discuss why we picked someone as that might allow scum to figure who we tracked.

The security guard thing sounds like it could have been a pre-meditated fake claim. I doubt she would get a CEO flavor pm without any recourse to a request for flavor or mass claim.

↑ Cutty Shark wrote:I hadn't thought of this before, but I'm actually wondering if scum have fakeclaims in this setup (I have no idea whether or not it would have occurred to Nat to do that)

but if they do, it kinda makes the Lissa neighborhood argument way weaker

-b

This sounds insanely fake.

↑ Nashville Dreams wrote:

↑ Cutty Shark wrote:I hadn't thought of this before, but I'm actually wondering if scum have fakeclaims in this setup (I have no idea whether or not it would have occurred to Nat to do that)

but if they do, it kinda makes the Lissa neighborhood argument way weaker

-b

This sounds insanely fake.

The fuck?

-b

↑ Cutty Shark wrote:

↑ The Fonz wrote:How weird? Well it doesn't seem to make any difference to the wagon dynamics, he makes it, then it literally gets ignored for at least ten pages.

I'm curious as to the implication you're trying to make here

-b

As I said, it seemed weird. It had literally no impact on the game. No-one at all seemed to react to it, it didn't given the Honey wagon any momentum, he disappeared for a few pages after making it then, on returning didn't say anything about Honey. It's as if it hadn't happened. Normally, when someone switches from the top wagon to the second-biggest within a day of deadline, it has some kind of effect on the game. That's bizarre and I don't really know what to make of it. (I guess the lack of votecounts had something to do with it).

Anatole only mentions Honey once more after voting her. Read ISO 175-187, from the vote to the end of the day. Anatole seems to spend all this time talking about side issues, and basically none of it talking about who to lynch. It's possible that this is a townie who doesn't see much difference between the major wagons. But to compare that with my own mindset, I was pretty much agonising between ND and Honey in terms of who's the better compromise lynch if I can't get people to acquiesce in an FT lynch, and he just doesn't seem bothered.

↑ The Fonz wrote:As I said, it seemed weird. It had literally no impact on the game. No-one at all seemed to react to it, it didn't given the Honey wagon any momentum, he disappeared for a few pages after making it then, on returning didn't say anything about Honey. It's as if it hadn't happened. Normally, when someone switches from the top wagon to the second-biggest within a day of deadline, it has some kind of effect on the game. That's bizarre and I don't really know what to make of it. (I guess the lack of votecounts had something to do with it).

I don't understand how that's scummy from Anatole

-b

↑ Cutty Shark wrote:

↑ Nashville Dreams wrote:

↑ Cutty Shark wrote:I hadn't thought of this before, but I'm actually wondering if scum have fakeclaims in this setup (I have no idea whether or not it would have occurred to Nat to do that)

but if they do, it kinda makes the Lissa neighborhood argument way weaker

-b

This sounds insanely fake.

The fuck?

-b

Did I stutter? This looks like the old fake a townslip routine.

Bastard mechanic = fakeclaims likely.
Honeybee scumflip with fakeclaim built in = fakeclaims near certainty
Suggestion executives are scum (of course that might be my flavortext)

And you are pretending scum might not have fakeclaims.

So you're suspicious that he make any assumption or display some inside knowledge about the setup? That seems backwards.

I don't see how bastard mechanics have anything to do with whether or not there are fakeclaims.
This is original flavor; fakeclaims aren't strictly necessary.
Honey could've made up the security guard thing.

The whole of bringing that up is: If you are certain scum have fakeclaims, you shouldn't be certain Lissa had no recourse to talk about her role PM freely if she were scum in the neighborhood QT (as she would have had a town template to pull from), and that is what everyone is townreading her for.

-b

↑ Nashville Dreams wrote:It is not protoen to discuss why we picked someone as that might allow scum to figure who we tracked.

... didn't you already tell us who you tracked?

↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:So you're suspicious that he

didn't

make any assumption or display some inside knowledge about the setup? That seems backwards.

Fake townslips are a real thing. Pretty uncommon for them to work though, I think.

↑ Cutty Shark wrote:

↑ The Fonz wrote:As I said, it seemed weird. It had literally no impact on the game. No-one at all seemed to react to it, it didn't given the Honey wagon any momentum, he disappeared for a few pages after making it then, on returning didn't say anything about Honey. It's as if it hadn't happened. Normally, when someone switches from the top wagon to the second-biggest within a day of deadline, it has some kind of effect on the game. That's bizarre and I don't really know what to make of it. (I guess the lack of votecounts had something to do with it).

I don't understand how that's scummy from Anatole

-b

It's not, and I didn't say it was. Hence the phrase 'That's bizarre and I don't know what to make of it.' I found it bizarre and didn't know what to make of it.
It's really unusual that that kind of vote switch just gets completely ignored. (Or at least - in so far as it is in any way scummy, it suggests a lack of effort from Anatole to persuade anyone to follow him, but also a lack of curiosity from everyone else in not asking him about it or reacting in any way).

I was looking over everyone, and it just struck me. I don't know why, in my list of things I notice about all the players, I have to only include scummy things about Anatole, just because he's marginally my top suspect in a game full of town reads? I included everything I thought of interest.

↑ The Fonz wrote:Does eventually vote Honey - third on the wagon,

but this vote just feels weird.

How weird? Well it doesn't seem to make any difference to the wagon dynamics, he makes it, then it literally gets ignored for at least ten pages.

Come on Fonz; I don't think it's unreasonable to infer that you're trying to call the vote scummy

-b

(I really don't want to have a semantic argument on what 'weird' means, in context, so if you're going to go that route, don't.)

-b

Yes, it is unreasonable.

VOTE: Cutty Scum

A bastard mechanic necessitates fakeclaims. The mod cannot depend on town outing the bastard mechanic.


AK there is nothing inside knowledge there.

↑ The Fonz wrote:I have to only include scummy things about Anatole, just because he's marginally my top suspect in a game full of town reads?

You voted him there and examining that vote is something I reserve the right to do

-b

p-edit: god you are just the fucking worst

↑ The Fonz wrote:Yes, it is unreasonable.

Uh, why?

-b

bork,

mafia is extremely annoying by phone. i'm not going to have a lot to say the next couple days.

fonz's claim satisfies me for now, though the flavor sounds recruity maybe. wouldnt expect that sort of claim if it actually were recruity.

waiting to hear more from 5 off.

i'll be more verbose if i can borrow a laptop tonight.

↑ Cutty Shark wrote:

↑ The Fonz wrote:I have to only include scummy things about Anatole, just because he's marginally my top suspect in a game full of town reads?

You voted him there and examining that vote is something I reserve the right to do

-b

p-edit: god you are just the fucking worst

Well, sure. Because he's my top suspect. I also somewhat suspect Baboon, and found you townish, but was intrigued by the apparent contradiction in you saying your role was basically similar to Anatole's item-based role despite your earlier having claimed no knowledge of items. That's what you do, right? You muse on the scummy, the townish, the not-sure-how-to-take-this and the downright odd. Eventually, you work shit out. I don't think it's unreasonable, when I state categorically that I don't know how to interpret something, that it means I don't know how to interpret it. When the fuck did it become the law that, if you find someone scummy, you can't ever mention anything other than how scummy scummy scum that player is? The point of that post wasn't 'Here's why everyone should vote Anatole.' It's 'here's what I think, and since I suspect Anatole more than anyone else, I guess I oughta vote him.'

@Nashville: Are you saying your pm or just that it didn't suggest he wasn't? Because my 'He wasn't in control' read is based on what he said, unprompted, and what my PM said, which suggested something similar.

↑ Cutty Shark wrote:I don't see how bastard mechanics have anything to do with whether or not there are fakeclaims.
This is original flavor; fakeclaims aren't strictly necessary.
Honey could've made up the security guard thing.

The whole

point

of bringing that up is: If you are certain scum have fakeclaims, you shouldn't be certain Lissa had no recourse to talk about her role PM freely if she were scum in the neighborhood QT (as she would have had a town template to pull from), and that is what everyone is townreading her for.

-b

It's not the only reason: her Honey vote at a crucial juncture also looks very town.

My PM did not suggest F16 was under the influence at all. Are you sure that could not have been me that was under the influence?


Cutter Shark, your game has been one giant info fish.