TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

[Winter Flakes]

i've been TRing ABR for pretty much the whole game please dont' try that with me

but whyyyyy

he's being SR for reasons that i don't think make that much sense. He's playing similarly to how he did in the last two games I've had with him where he was both town. He was blunt. He wanted wagons on people. He made observations that people didn't necessarily like and didn't care. He made comments that didn't really make sense coming from a scum perspective, like the one on the xtoxm wagon that I just mentioned.

I thought he was scummy too in the first game I played with him and I was wrong. I sincerely think this is just his playstyle

[mastina]

VOTE: Titus fine with this

Like, IV voted Titus here, in 858.
Titus townread IV in 1079.

Xtoxm said that he townreads Titus for townreading IV for scumreading Titus--which...Titus did, and IV did, exactly the way Xtoxm described.

[OkaPoka]

again multitasking which is why this took so long

Hopkirk is close to a townread but he is not at the level of unwnd or hercule for me. i get the feeling he's just a good player which makes me paranoid of his scumrange. honestly my eyes glaze over his posting (potentially not ideal) but the vibe I get is that it looks like he's being helpful and engaging everyone in an effort to understand what's going on. if he's establishing himself to push an agenda i have a feeling we'll see it later but im very okay having this slot around for now.

JacksonVirgo - mostly a tonal read. i don't love 526 or 533 but the posts i thought were +town are: 534, 597, 598, 599, 647, 648. it's hard to explain it beyond just being openly frustrated and utterly not giving a shit about his thread perception which i have found in practice (in my anecdotal experience) to be a towntell for him.

A50 - this is like exactly the same as A50 in this one towngame we played and not at all how he played in this scumgame we did (granted he replaced in, which is different). there are moments like 112, 116, 619, 622 that ring eerily similar. "but it's just A50's playstyle!" you might say. okay sure maybe, that's why he's one of my weaker townleans i guess. also 737 is a really weird thing to post as scum but i obliged him since someone on my team thinks he can read him ok.

Xtoxm - unprompted and unpostury/interesting notes from Auro are good, i liked 642 for example. don't see an agenda from this slot, not postury, takes are pretty reasonable. other people townreading them too despite lack of content quantity which feels good. weaker townlean probably

TW - ill likely be revisiting this a lot bc im paranoid. here's the reasoning i gave earlier

rn it's leantown i think with the engagement and with the hinting on Datisi scumreading me so early (inside thing where town!Datisi has tunneled early town!me for two games in a row, i like that Datisi gave the read and the worst mentioned it unprompted). his entrance felt forced but on reread it's not bad. could be some confbiasing going on there so im conflicted, idk, im gonna just like worsty be a slow burn read for me.

and i think with your recent interaction with me im townreading you even more. i think your disengagement from this game is fine in the context of being busy and maybe even +town in a vacuum. also i think it's easy for scum!you to try and pocket me and you've done everything but engage with me and pocket me.

I'm ok adding IV to my townblock

i dont think that's how townblocks work

iv is voting you

Haven't got there yet, but I'm ok with putting him in my never eliminate pile.

literally three posts down

like

not talking to you until you catchup because my sanity is gone

I don't see what you're trying to say; near as I can tell, you're proving your case wrong?

Your case is that Xtoxm said he was townreading Titus for townreading IV while IV was scumreading Titus; you say that runs into a chronology problem, of IV's scumread coming AFTER Titus's townread.

Except, IV's scumread came BEFORE Titus's townread, and therefore Xtoxm's reason doesn't have a chronology problem.

You've said Xtoxm townread Titus because Titus townread IV after IV scumread Titus, and that Xtoxm's townread reasoning was made up because IV's scumread on Titus came after Titus's townread.

Except...IV's scumread on Titus did indeed come before Titus's townread on IV, so Xtoxm townreading Titus for townreading IV's scumread of her...

...Doesn't actually run into a chronology problem...

...And thus, has no reason to be faked.

are you being daft on purpose ?

[Winter Flakes]

@Ceph

Dannflor feels passive and fake sorty imo hence my vote

[the worst]

They posted 16 times in one day while being ran up
And then at the end after they had been voted out, they posted one more time
It's not the same thing

He also posted like 10 times in one day while being run up when he was scum last team mafia. So posting while being run up is not a town-indicator for him.

The nature of the content when run up IS.

In last year's team mafia, there was a notable reaction to him being run up.

In Jigsaw's Revenge, he had no reaction to being run up.

This was a town game where he didn't post up a storm while run up. He lurked and was mislynched. With no notable reaction to being run up.

For the record, I've been looking over like 10-20 Xtoxm games (looking for games where he was explicitly eliminated during the day regardless of his alignment, so I had to exclude endgamed and survived and nightkilled results), and in the process I have thought that, while Xtoxm is hard to read, that this is still more likely him as town.

Noted. I don't think his 1 post here is enough to get a townread off meta though.

this is exactly the post I wanted to make but wanted to check before I made it

[Winter Flakes]

to expand on ABR and paraphrasing Infinity a bit as well which is a shared viewpoint of ours

I'd say it's relatively common for townies to express doubt on a wagon that is close to elim, especially when it's one that they clearly weren't that invested in/didn't want in favour of other ones, which ABR has done multiple times this game. He's already not a super influential slot in this plist. Him making that comment about seeing wagons like this flip town often is so... inoffensive. It's not gonna save Xtoxm, but it's not gonna make ABR himself look better either. Like wtf is the point of making that post from a scum perspective?

The votes here just don't make sense to me at all

[OkaPoka]

all yours ducky i literally cannot interact with mastina because time is no longer linear

[the worst]

@Ceph

Dannflor feels passive and fake sorty imo hence my vote

iso dann and ctrl+f "spoiler"

[the worst]

mastina has never been a believer in linear time afaict

[mastina]

now since you couldnt be assed to scroll three posts down ill specify the important thing for you

Haven't got there yet,

So? That changes nothing.

Titus quoted a post where she was informed IV was voting her.

She, in that post where she quoted that IV was voting her, said IV was town.

What's so unreasonable about Xtoxm coming to the conclusion that Titus is locktowning IV for voting her?

That's a perfectly reasonable conclusion to reach, that Xtoxm believed Titus locktowned IV for voting her, because IN THE POST WHERE TITUS SAYS SHE HAS IV AS LOCKTOWN, she is explicitly ACKNOWLEDGING THAT IV VOTED HER.

The leap in logic is ridiculously easy to make.
"Titus has been told that IV is voting her. She hasn't read to that point yet, but she is acknowledging that IV has voted her. She stated IV is locktown. Therefore, she thinks IV is town for having voted her."
That's a perfectly logical train of thought, isn't it?

[Winter Flakes]

also all of this "townblocking" or "strong TRs" on D1 of a large where I don't think a huge amount of people have actually obvtowned all that hard and there's more just a bunch of people who are being relatively townie but not out of their scumrange is going to be our downfall and is a massive mistake to make

the PoEs of a lot of people are kinda garbage imo

[Winter Flakes]

sorry if that's hostile but i genuinely think it's a big mistake

[AGar]

This is me, pointing out that mastina has read the first 14 pages, then turboskipped to engaging with the current events of the thread starting with page 76, is wholly uninformed on huge chunks of the gamestate, and yet is handing out "locktown-townblock" and "lockscum" reads while continuing to engage in the ongoing discussion in a central way, thereby centering herself in the discussion, generating more conversation and current discussion to get into (which right now is arguing in circles because it's more convenient to deliberately get into a shitspat with Oka) and further delaying her actually going back, continuing to get caught up, and rounding out her reads. After replacing into a JV slot that disengaged in what was an almost deliberate manner, reread Pages 1-10 like three fucking times and kept giving reads on those on page like fucking 50, and was generally shifty and dodgy.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mastina

VOTE: Titus fine with this

Like, IV voted Titus here, in 858.
Titus townread IV in 1079.

Xtoxm said that he townreads Titus for townreading IV for scumreading Titus--which...Titus did, and IV did, exactly the way Xtoxm described.

If you had read up, you would understand that Titus wasn't caught up on the game at that point in time, and was giving out a read without that information. Oka has explained this to you. But it's more convenient for your "reads" to continue to engage in a bad faith argument and intentionally misunderstand what Oka is saying than to go back and read up.

[the worst]

You guys are making the assumption that xtoxm somehow would care more if he were scum than if he were town

in fairness he does place more pride in his scumplay I think; idk if I've outright asked him that though and I probably should. that being said I doubt he likes the idea of being so polarised pro-scum that he can be reverse-ellitell'd so I think his posting pattern here tends towards manipulative

[OkaPoka]

jesus christ do I have to explain the flow of time works

[mastina]

hmm maybe that was too vague

(I, Titus) Haven't got there (the part where IV votes me) yet,

Mate in your effort to try and prove your point you're literally discrediting it.

Titus said she hadn't read to the point where IV voted her--this is explicitly her acknowledging that IV has voted her, she just hasn't checked up to that point in the game yet.

Titus, separately, said that she was locktowning IV, in that same post.

While the two may be unconnected, why is it unreasonable for Xtoxm to assume that they're connected? What is fundamentally wrong with Xtoxm seeing part A, Titus knows that IV is voting her, and seeing part B, Titus is townreading IV, and connecting the two to be "Titus is townreading IV for voting her"?

Titus explicitly said, as you so helpfully point out, "I haven't gotten to the point where IV voted me", which requires her to be aware that IV is voting her.
Titus explicitly said she was townreading IV in that same post.
It is a perfectly valid conclusion to link the two together.

[OkaPoka]

you know what instead of interacting with mastina

raise your hand if you agree with mastina's interpretation of time and events, if you raise your hand I'll interact with you instead

[AGar]

Oka do you feel like mastina is engaging you in good faith?

[mastina]

are you being daft on purpose ?

Are you?

Because I've demonstrated pretty clearly how Xtoxm could read 1079 and come to the perfectly reasonable conclusion of "Titus is townreading IV for IV scumreading Titus".

1079 is, just in of itself, enough to have formed that stance.

The full context of the situation indicates the conclusion is ultimately wrong.

But if you're not paying extra-special attention to the full context, if you're not putting 2000% into scrutinizing the context, analyzing its nuances in-depth with special attention there with the intent of making a point? If you're just casually reading?

It is RIDICULOUSLY easy to read Titus's 1079 as townreading IV for scumreading her.

For Xtoxm to be scum making this up, you'd need to demonstrate how it's impossible for Xtoxm to have not carefully and meticulously scrutinized it and seen the correct context. For Xtoxm to be scum making this up, you'd need to demonstrate that Xtoxm read the context correct and then chose to lie about the context.

Which is all sorts of violating occam's razor.

The simplest solution being.
Xtoxm wasn't paying such close attention that he correctly read the context, and that Xtoxm misread it and made a read off of that.

[OkaPoka]

Oka do you feel like mastina is engaging you in good faith?

no but that's not AI for her

[OkaPoka]

someone translate mastina's posts for me i cant look at them

[Winter Flakes]

@Ceph

Dannflor feels passive and fake sorty imo hence my vote

iso dann and ctrl+f "spoiler"

you mean the one where he ignores the guy he apparently is fine with killing on wagon who he has displayed no trajectory on the entire game but decides to drop reads on everyone else

yeah i mean it's fine but i don't think it's unfakeable and i'm more interested in why he's down to murk xtoxm when from what i can see in the ISO there's practically no progression on that slot... and in the one post you can argue where you'd expect to see that progression all you get is

"oh yeah they're at the bottom of my read list and i like the wagon"

it's so jarring

[AGar]

Oka do you feel like mastina is engaging you in good faith?

no but that's not AI for her

Let's ignore meta because meta is trash.

Do you see no benefit to scum using bad faith arguments as a stalling tactic to avoid having to read back on the thread to gain context which could shatter their "reads"?

[the worst]

i've been TRing ABR for pretty much the whole game please dont' try that with me

but whyyyyy

he's being SR for reasons that i don't think make that much sense. He's playing similarly to how he did in the last two games I've had with him where he was both town. He was blunt. He wanted wagons on people. He made observations that people didn't necessarily like and didn't care. He made comments that didn't really make sense coming from a scum perspective, like the one on the xtoxm wagon that I just mentioned.

I thought he was scummy too in the first game I played with him and I was wrong. I sincerely think this is just his playstyle

I think we need to nolife at the same time some night because I don't think we're reading the same game

[mastina]

are you being daft on purpose ?

Are you?

Because I've demonstrated pretty clearly how Xtoxm could read 1079 and come to the perfectly reasonable conclusion of "Titus is townreading IV for IV scumreading Titus".

1079 is, just in of itself, enough to have formed that stance.

The full context of the situation indicates the conclusion is ultimately wrong.

But if you're not paying extra-special attention to the full context, if you're not putting 2000% into scrutinizing the context, analyzing its nuances in-depth with special attention there with the intent of making a point? If you're just casually reading?

It is RIDICULOUSLY easy to read Titus's 1079 as townreading IV for scumreading her.

For Xtoxm to be scum making this up, you'd need to demonstrate how it's impossible for Xtoxm to have not carefully and meticulously scrutinized it and seen the correct context. For Xtoxm to be scum making this up, you'd need to demonstrate that Xtoxm read the context correct and then chose to lie about the context.

Which is all sorts of violating occam's razor.

The simplest solution being.
Xtoxm wasn't paying such close attention that he correctly read the context, and that Xtoxm misread it and made a read off of that.

For the record: Xtoxm having generated a read off of an incorrect interpretation of a post, but one which isn't that hard to have made, does further my feelings of him being town, because it means he took the time to come to a conclusion, but wasn't so hellbent on it being perfect that he cared to check to make sure the read wasn't flawed.