BooneyToonz XII: Corporate Boontrigue (Game Over!!!)
Forum rules
- Asuka
-
Asuka Townie
- Asuka
- Townie
- Townie
- Posts: 43
- Joined: May 15, 2019
I'm not saying scum played flawlessly or that town didn't win this off dayplay, but in a large game with two strongmans there is literally no reason to think there would be no protective roles like a doctor. Why do you think scum would think those roles are squishy? Doctor is an iconic role and BP is generally regarded as a niche role. "Scum have a strongman" I don't think leads to "thru setup spec, town has no doctors" makes any sense. In that sense, no, "town rolecop" is not a "squishy" role.- Elsa Jay
-
Elsa Jay Chaos and Confusion
- Elsa Jay
- Chaos and Confusion
- Chaos and Confusion
- Posts: 6441
- Joined: September 30, 2018
- Location: 'Murica, or Arendelle. Either works.
Not when they got doctors.In post 2224, the worst wrote:Vigilantes and rolecops are squishy....
Bah. This is why Open Setups are best. The aftermath doesn't devolve into retroactive balancing.- Liger_Zero
-
Liger_Zero Mafia Scum
- Liger_Zero
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: September 4, 2015
- Location: Fighting Zoids
I don't think it would be useful to argue about the setup with the mods here. I don't believe they want to hear feedback on it. I will say personally didn't like it but don't really think the setup caused scum lose in this situation (though it did play a factor in just process of elimination of roles and clears) but if you played this setup more than once it would probably always end in a town win more than 90% of the time it was run.- Liger_Zero
-
Liger_Zero Mafia Scum
- Liger_Zero
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: September 4, 2015
- Location: Fighting Zoids
- the worst
-
the worst Snuggly Duckling
- the worst
- Snuggly Duckling
- Snuggly Duckling
- Posts: 34628
- Joined: November 7, 2015
- Location: pond
Thanks, Liger. Sorry that you didn't enjoy the setup.
I'm comfortable with feedback and think the suggested tweaks make a lot of sense; just want folks to know that we did the things we did setup-wise for a reason.
I agree this wasn't won mechanically, and that was the comment which irked me.- skitter30
-
skitter30 she/herLast Laugh
- skitter30
she/her- Last Laugh
- Last Laugh
- Posts: 32951
- Joined: March 26, 2017
- Pronoun: she/her
- Location: Est
ThanksIn post 2228, Liger_Zero wrote:Skitter you played exceptionally well, I was really hoping you had gotten apathetic and lurked out. Xtoxm I also underestimated and thought would be easier to manipulate. Was fun playing with you both.
Wasnt apathetic, i just tend to be very indecisive and it takes me a while to actually cast a vote that i know could be game-ending, even if i'm p confident that its right
This was my first time in lylo in like months!ShowHiatus once more.
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx- popsofctown
-
popsofctown Survivor
- popsofctown
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 12356
- Joined: September 23, 2008
After looking at the setup as the whole (which required me to go through both mod isos, eugh), I found it pretty questionable.
If I was making tweaks, I would suggest informed modifiers on the scums letting them know there are two fully bulletproof players they need to deal with. If the cornerstone of the balance of this setup is the strongman kills being given to the scum implying that they need to counter town resiliency, it shouldn't do any harm to make that more explicit. If I wanted to discover what the moderator had in store for me more gradually by testing out my powers I'd probably be in a D&D forum right now."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- Flavor Leaf
-
Flavor Leaf Survivor
- Flavor Leaf
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 32305
- Joined: July 17, 2017
- Location: San Francisco
I’ll update this to the BT archive soon.CHECK OUT MY HOW TO PLAY AS SCUM GUIDE Maybe it'll help you catch me
”Yeah, the moment I realized Flavor was scum I stopped trying because I’m sure as hell not beating him.” - Clemency
”Not bragging about myself as much as I'm actually praising the Scum player of the year...and probably the decade.” - Almost50
"Just accept that FL is too good as scum, period." - Clidd- Flavor Leaf
-
Flavor Leaf Survivor
- Flavor Leaf
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 32305
- Joined: July 17, 2017
- Location: San Francisco
BooneyToonz Discussion if you have any questions or thoughts for the BooneyToonz series, or if you’d like to mod a BooneyToonz.CHECK OUT MY HOW TO PLAY AS SCUM GUIDE Maybe it'll help you catch me
”Yeah, the moment I realized Flavor was scum I stopped trying because I’m sure as hell not beating him.” - Clemency
”Not bragging about myself as much as I'm actually praising the Scum player of the year...and probably the decade.” - Almost50
"Just accept that FL is too good as scum, period." - Clidd- the worst
-
the worst Snuggly Duckling
- the worst
- Snuggly Duckling
- Snuggly Duckling
- Posts: 34628
- Joined: November 7, 2015
- Location: pond
In post 2231, popsofctown wrote:After looking at the setup as the whole (which required me to go through both mod isos, eugh), I found it pretty questionable.
If I was making tweaks, I would suggest informed modifiers on the scums letting them know there are two fully bulletproof players they need to deal with. If the cornerstone of the balance of this setup is the strongman kills being given to the scum implying that they need to counter town resiliency, it shouldn't do any harm to make that more explicit. If I wanted to discover what the moderator had in store for me more gradually by testing out my powers I'd probably be in a D&D forum right now.
I don't mind this feedback at all. thanks.- Creature
-
Creature Solve This Game
- Creature
- Solve This Game
- Solve This Game
- Posts: 46072
- Joined: January 26, 2016
- Location: Lands of Fire
- Liger_Zero
-
Liger_Zero Mafia Scum
- Liger_Zero
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: September 4, 2015
- Location: Fighting Zoids
For reference, nearly 3/4 of the town was a power role. So us shooting blindly we would have hit town power role almost every-time. The setup demands mislynching power roles, the role cops messing up actions, us using strongman on bulletproofs (and even then, universal backup could take its spot), you have to also consider we have to prioritize killing the people who can check us or the bulletproofs because and if going for rolecops we had to know for certainty there wasn't some other protective that could stop our kills which we assumed wrongly. Because from our standpoint this game was so slanted that wasn't even out of the realm of possibility. Also don't have a strongman get lynched because otherwise you have players you definitely can never kill.
also I very much regret that I didn't push harder in the night to switch our kill onto skitter like I wanted us to do for night 2. I thought Blake would have been more likely to shoot more town players for us than risk it for us and that her being vigilante was only a small threat for her shooting me and maybe we could have mislynched. Though looking back now, I am not sure I could have pulled that off since every move I made after Titus lynch didn't pan out or was poorly executed.- the worst
-
the worst Snuggly Duckling
- the worst
- Snuggly Duckling
- Snuggly Duckling
- Posts: 34628
- Joined: November 7, 2015
- Location: pond
Yeah definitely. This setup necessitates dayplay but I don't think any BooneyToonz game ever has been role lite.- Liger_Zero
-
Liger_Zero Mafia Scum
- Liger_Zero
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: September 4, 2015
- Location: Fighting Zoids
I don't think you get the point I am making that we were forced into situations in which we had to go certain routes that left us weaker as a whole. Like when I say "this wasn't really a mechanical win" I am not saying mechanics played no part. The mechanics played an enormous part in who ended up in LYLO and if the game wasn't designed in the way it was, the playerlist at LYLO would have been pretty different, which would have affected the game state more.
We didn't have options to do strategic killings. We had to continually play catchup, and then at the end town got it together and won but everything beforehand says they shouldn't and a large part of why they were able to do it was because of how setup designed forced scum to do certain actions.
Does that make sense? I am not sure I am making that clear. I don't mind that the setup favored town. I mind that the design of this setup was trying to force us to behave in a certain path when we should have had a bit of freedom.- Liger_Zero
-
Liger_Zero Mafia Scum
- Liger_Zero
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: September 4, 2015
- Location: Fighting Zoids
- the worst
-
the worst Snuggly Duckling
- the worst
- Snuggly Duckling
- Snuggly Duckling
- Posts: 34628
- Joined: November 7, 2015
- Location: pond
I get the point you're making; this conversation is a rabbit hole. we could go back and forth on this for ever. you guys killed the even night rolecop on an odd night and vice versa; i agreed with your preference to kill skitter earlier in the game and have no idea why the vig had to die when her reads were poor, etc., etc., etc.
there was a lost kill potential from suboptimal kills there.
like i appreciate the point you're making but also need it to be noted that your nightkills were generally not optimal (even outside of the semi-uninformed strongman argument), so the case that it was impossible for you to remove strong dayplay from the game isn't strictly true
i still very much appreciate what you're saying, though. fwiw i strongly prefer setups with less reliance on power roles. booneytoonz games are very consistently far away from that. some critique on this setup is fair but this isn't a situation of "scum played brilliantly and lost due to a setup"; it's "scum played ok in a townsided setup and town won via dayplay". it's harsh, but i need to be honest to respond to your feedback in a meaningful way. i feel like #2237 was more of a cop-out answer than you were looking for.- Liger_Zero
-
Liger_Zero Mafia Scum
- Liger_Zero
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: September 4, 2015
- Location: Fighting Zoids
I just wanted to ensure you understood what I meant, I didn't think you did at first. Not trying to beat a dead horse here honestly. Just wanted us all on the same page. I appreciate you listening because I was honestly not expecting you to after I saw the initial posts in post game so when you responded to me I didn't want you to take me the wrong way.- popsofctown
-
popsofctown Survivor
- popsofctown
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 12356
- Joined: September 23, 2008
I wouldn't have played as jestery day 1 as I did if I drew PR, I don't think. So the scum can maybe bear some criticism for adding 1 more power role to the setup than the mods did since "mislynch anybody but the chicken running around with his head cut off" was a pretty reliable algorithm for hitting a PR."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- the worst
-
the worst Snuggly Duckling
- the worst
- Snuggly Duckling
- Snuggly Duckling
- Posts: 34628
- Joined: November 7, 2015
- Location: pond
Yeah for sure. Sorry for brushing you off a little before; I figured I'd sound like a downright prick if I came in with the "sub-optimal nightkills" argument if you just needed to let off some steam, didn't totally register that you were looking for a more detailed answer.
I think we are on the same page. I do definitely appreciate the constructive feedback from you some others have provided.- Xtoxm
-
Xtoxm EBWOXM
- Xtoxm
- EBWOXM
- EBWOXM
- Posts: 12886
- Joined: November 30, 2007
so you did that to yourself intentionally? interestingIn post 2242, popsofctown wrote:I wouldn't have played as jestery day 1 as I did if I drew PR, I don't think. So the scum can maybe bear some criticism for adding 1 more power role to the setup than the mods did since "mislynch anybody but the chicken running around with his head cut off" was a pretty reliable algorithm for hitting a PR.
i have a theory that a vt volunteering for the d1 lynch in these games so the town prs can all get into action would be good for townSmooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst- Xtoxm
-
Xtoxm EBWOXM
- Xtoxm
- EBWOXM
- EBWOXM
- Posts: 12886
- Joined: November 30, 2007
i felt exactly the same way in BTE fwiw. almost every kill was out of necessity. it's a mechanical battle to get yourselves to lylo without the game being solved.In post 2238, Liger_Zero wrote:I don't think you get the point I am making that we were forced into situations in which we had to go certain routes that left us weaker as a whole. Like when I say "this wasn't really a mechanical win" I am not saying mechanics played no part. The mechanics played an enormous part in who ended up in LYLO and if the game wasn't designed in the way it was, the playerlist at LYLO would have been pretty different, which would have affected the game state more.
We didn't have options to do strategic killings. We had to continually play catchup, and then at the end town got it together and won but everything beforehand says they shouldn't and a large part of why they were able to do it was because of how setup designed forced scum to do certain actions.
Does that make sense? I am not sure I am making that clear. I don't mind that the setup favored town. I mind that the design of this setup was trying to force us to behave in a certain path when we should have had a bit of freedom.
i think you could have delayed/forgone the jesus kill here. his reads were bad, and there were 2 scum he couldnt get a useful result on.
i was kinda surprised that the people who sr me kept dying.Smooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst- Asuka
-
Asuka Townie
- Asuka
- Townie
- Townie
- Posts: 43
- Joined: May 15, 2019
There was only one scum on your wagon, though. You were pretty much exclusively lynched by town.In post 2242, popsofctown wrote:I wouldn't have played as jestery day 1 as I did if I drew PR, I don't think. So the scum can maybe bear some criticism for adding 1 more power role to the setup than the mods did since "mislynch anybody but the chicken running around with his head cut off" was a pretty reliable algorithm for hitting a PR.- Xtoxm
-
Xtoxm EBWOXM
- Xtoxm
- EBWOXM
- EBWOXM
- Posts: 12886
- Joined: November 30, 2007
(although that said, you guysdidget it to lylo with still a shot at winning, so gj on that)Smooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst- Something_Smart
-
Something_Smart HeSomewhat_Balanced
- Something_Smart
He- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 22616
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He
- Location: Rochester, New York
- Something_Smart
Copyright © MafiaScum. All rights reserved.
- Xtoxm
- Asuka
- Xtoxm
- Xtoxm
- the worst
- popsofctown
- Liger_Zero
- the worst
- Liger_Zero
- Liger_Zero
- the worst
- Liger_Zero
- Creature
- the worst
- Flavor Leaf
- Flavor Leaf
- popsofctown
- skitter30
- the worst
- Liger_Zero
- Liger_Zero
- Elsa Jay
- Asuka