Yates wrote:Even with these posts added, it doesn't change three facts: one, that he admitted to being scum when opening that way; two, "also" is not the same as "but;" and three, he was unable to point to a game where he opened as Town in this fashion. Allowing him three games, it sounds to me like he is saying, "I was scum in those games too" meaning those games in addition to this one. If he meant that he was scum in those games but not this one I would expect him to say "I found Tit for Tat, also, but I was scum in those so no, I can't link to a game where I was Town and opened like that."
See this is easily countered by the fact that midway through the script Ben asks him for a town game and he says "apart from this one" so he obviously wasn't attempting to use 'but'.
Point is, Ben referenced a game (where he was scum? do we have confirmation on this yet? anyone?) and asked for others where he was town. MOI gave him one, but had to admit he was scum in that one (as well as the first game Ben referenced.) Now you can claim this as a 'possible' scum slip due to not being clear however, MOI explained it in his post 72. Take or leave his explination, it all adds up (unless he was town in affc) so calling it a scum slip is outright wrong.
Yates wrote:Here's the thing though, korlash, let's say I adopt your assertion that he just meant in those two games and not this one [due to some inexplicable mistake in grammar], it's still a self incrimination. He stated of his own volition that he was scum in BOTH games in which he opened like this, the logical conclusion being that he can not point to a game in which he was TOWN and opened in a similar fashion [per Benmage's original question]. So he essentially confirmed that this is a scum tell for his meta. If you want to argue that "self incrimination" is different from a "slip," fine. Have at it. You still end up in the same place; with MoI calling himself scum.
No please, argue meta all you want. That's a real and viable attack. It's using a fake one that irks me because it corrupts the thread and damages the game.
For a non-important argumentative stance on this though, I cannot point to a game in which I was town where I argued with you before... Obviously this is a purely ridiculous exaggerated form of what you're saying MOI could be doing here, but it's a clear example of the differences attacking someone for meta reasons and attacking them for scum slips differ. You will not arrive at the same conclusion because the paths taken will be exceedingly different. attacking someone for meta reasons (especially in this game after everything that's happened) has a hell of a lot less chance of 'working out' then attacking them for a scum slip.
So in conclusion, if you adopt my way of thinking you would in turn have to adopt a considerably weaker case against MOI, and there in lies the problem.
Yates wrote:3. Your opinion on MoI doesn't matter to me and bears no value on your inquiries towards me right now. Your opinion on MoI may become important later after a flip. My point was that you were expending a lot of energy on defending tangential points that deflect off of him while not actually defending him or stating your opinion on him. As you know, this is a buddy tell. If you are going to get involved, I'd like to know the reason you feel the need to do it. This directly leads into...
Weird, I've never had anyone dance around whether to accuse me of defensive budding or not before. If you think you can point to my posts and say with a straight face that I seem more concerned with defending MOI instead of being more concerned with attacking what I think is a suspicious action you did, have at it.
Anyway, I felt like getting involved because I saw you pushing weak, fake, and seemingly downright fabricated attacks, ignoring simple questions directed towards you regarding this issue, and being unable to justify said attacks. I originally got involved because I felt I may have seen a contradiction between timing (see my original attacks against you) and quite honestly seriously didn't see the scum slip you mentioned.
Yates wrote:4. Why wouldn't you commit to anything? This game is played based on the content of your posts. Some critical components of that content are interactions with players, opinions expressed, reads, how reads evolve, etc. At least, that's how *I* read players. Making your opinion on a player or a statement known holds you to it. If MoI is lynched and flips Town, I fully expect to have to answer for that. If I just ask random questions without voting or stating opinions while casually casting suspicion and dispersions, how is THAT Town activity. Yes. I am saying that you are casually casting suspicion and dispersions against numerous players [not just myself] without taking a hard line on anything. For me? THAT is a scum tell.
Ah, and there-in lies my point. You have become convinced you need to do something in order to appear town. This is why the 'need to commit' is scum thinking.
Back on point, I'm not for the practice of 'committing' to things just for the sake of taking a stance. I'm more interested in committing to the right stance and damn however people decide to look at me for it. I would hope that my feelings would come out during my play on their own without me having to force them. Now this is hardly ever the case, especially in a game like this, so I'm not against giving my reads when asked but I won't do such just to appease someone.
On a side note, I didn't ask you why should I commit to something, I asked why I should feel the need to do so. Tricky question, sure, but certainly important to see my side of all this.
On that note, Ben originally asked me for my top three scum picks so I think I'm managed enough from all this. in no particular order (alphabetical?) they would be Ben, Pere, and Yates. I would also include Fate.
Ben for his weirdly suspicious rush to defend MOI's use of meta to attack V2V. It didn't make a lot of sense why he would go to such levels to argue with me over it while thinking MOI is scum, although it appears his cause to vote was based on meta so the argument may merely have been about that and not MOI specifically. I'm not convinced as to his alignment but I still rank him as suspicious due to the weirdness of it all.
Pere for his 'intent to hammer' while having never mentioned the case/discussion on MOI all game. That and the whole "give us your reads" things seems like a rather fake and easy way to go about it. i.e. not that easyy for scum to come in, not say a word, and then hammer... but going this route would give him a pretty viable excuse. His defenses of it so far... lackluster and unconvincing.
Yates for the pure and simple fact I feel his vote on MOI is scum oriented. He placed the L-1 vote on MOI for the only stated reason being a 'scum slip' and when asked to explain that flip and justify it, he didn't... In fact it took him all of a page and a half just to explain to me how it was a scum slip. It's easy to tack yourself onto a wagon with a 'reasonably sounding' excuse, but so much harder to defend it when it's fake. I add in the deflection during the inquiry and his exclusion of some of the more important details when 'making his case'.
Fate is scum because Fate is always scum even when the mod mistakenly gives him a town role pm.
On MOI, I believe he has made a few good points in his defense that I feel no need to go into but overall I'm a little iffy. If I had to choose a side I would bet on him being town given the way the wagon formed and the way certain key players have behaved during it all. If it comes down to MOI v. one of my scum reads I would certainly be on the latter wagon, but I would hardly say MOI is a town read of any strength.
The only real town reads I have are the Jester, because while I know he has always been a little disinterested in a game once he's joined it and realized how much he would have to work, I generally feel getting a scum role would have netted a bit more out of him by now just because it's moderately interesting. And V2V because he's cool and I have yet to see him as scum.
Yates wrote:The good news is that Korlash won't be lonely tonight. He found someone in love with his e-peen.
Half the people in this game are in love with that, but I'm always lonely at night it seems... But in all honesty, given the player list if someone is going to sheep one of the big named players... might as well be me, I think that's the safest bet... Just imagine everyone sheeping Fate... or MOI... Oh... the anarchy that would rain down on us...
