Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[GreyICE]

Jason... What exactly do I always do?

[Starbuck]

I'm not caught up yet, but of the bit that I've read, I do want to say this. On my opinion of greenknight, it is not about him being wrong. It's the fact that he pushed it at all. He was trying to make a case of it and was really stretching to do so. That's what bothers me with that situation.

[jasonT1981]

Jason... What exactly do I always do?

Have I not already answered that LOL.

Whatg I mean is you call scum/town in every game I have seen you in without really backing up anything and lead a charge so to speak calling for their lynch with doing minimal work yourself expecting others to go solely of your word on who is scum.

[greenknight]

Consider that people jumped on me quickly after I voted Zang and took his side, making it impossible for me to seriously pressure him. So what exactly are you arguing was my supposed scum motivation for voting Zang?

Yes, but at the time you admitted the scum tell you were using was not exactly infallible, you did not unvote.

1) That's a strawman argument, I never claimed it was infallible.

2) Your arguments are inconsistent. First I'm scummy because I didn't keep pushing, now I'm scummy because I didn't unvote immediately? What would be a town tell then?

3) Related to the above, WHY is T-bone's vote/unvote of me scummy?

I'm not caught up yet, but of the bit that I've read, I do want to say this. On my opinion of greenknight, it is not about him being wrong. It's the fact that he pushed it at all. He was trying to make a case of it and was really stretching to do so. That's what bothers me with that situation.

Arguing about the validity of one scum tell is not making a case. You and triangle are the ones stretching here.

[GreyICE]

Jason... What exactly do I always do?

Have I not already answered that LOL.

Whatg I mean is you call scum/town in every game I have seen you in without really backing up anything and lead a charge so to speak calling for their lynch with doing minimal work yourself expecting others to go solely of your word on who is scum.

Interesting.

I'd say that matches my play in pretty much zero games.

Why did you want a 1v1 between me and Zang, Jason?

[jasonT1981]

simple... to test just how serious your claim was.

I would say it matches your play in most games though.

[GreyICE]

simple... to test just how serious your claim was.

I would say it matches your play in most games though.

But you didn't believe my claim

So if I 1v1ed Zang, what were you going to do there, Jason?

[jasonT1981]

Yes... I didn't believe it. I knew asking you to 1 on 1 would show how serious you are.

If you were really day cop with guilty you would have had no problem with a 1 vs 1 as you know you would have a scum flip in Zang. If you 1vs1 and he flipped town, I would have called for your head day 2.

If you were telling truth, you would have had no issue going forward with a scum guilty on Zang

Basically, I was pushing you to see how truthful you were being... turns out I was right.

[GreyICE]

But you were okay with voting Zang anyway

[jasonT1981]

my zang vote was RVS... not serious

[GreyICE]

But you left it on for quite a bit.

See the thing is, Jason, if you don't believe the claim, but ALSO believe I might fakeclaim as town, there's no town motivation to vote Zang. If he does get quicklynched, does flip town, and the town does lynch me day 2 the game is essentially over - it'll be two days with zero information and a pile of dead townies.

There's a lot of scum motivation to do that though.

[jasonT1981]

And what is the town motivation for claiming a guilty on someone you don't have?

[Tierce]

RVS lols and reactions like yours.

I would lynch Zang if jason flips scum.

[jasonT1981]

you sound like my lynch is a sure thing?

and reactions, what do you mean by that?

[GreyICE]

And what is the town motivation for claiming a guilty on someone you don't have?

I'm a village idiot according to you, who always plays anti-town. So your question has no purpose at all, according to your own posts.

Are you a village idiot who always plays anti-town?

If not, why did you vote Zang when you thought the guilty was faked and the outcome of a Zang lynch with a faked guilty would be so very obviously disastrous?

[Zang]

Jason- Who do you think is scum?

Zang, can you elaborate, which points you consider great on each side, since some of them are mutually exclusive?

The ones that I commented on. The post where T-Bone unvotes greenknight, I can see as scum motivated. I also don't like how Korlash originally voted without any reasoning.

In answer 1) I feel I've already explained myself several times over concerning my vote on you and was tired of covering the same ground repeatedly. I'd rather get back to scumhunting. 2) Not sure. It's probably down to the player pool more than anything, I'm used to players who will react aggressively when faced with what they believe to be BS. Actually, I think I did pretty well in Good vs Evil playing the same style as what I'm doing here and I'm surprised I picked up so much heat. Was 50% on the unexplained reads=scum tell there btw. 3) Both.

1. Show me where you had previously answered that question. And again, is there any reason why you couldn't do both?
2. You really should hav e thought more about that,
3. So you are admitting that your reasoning was flawed?

Regarding Greyice: If he always plays this way, can we expect him to get more readable later in the game?

Maybe? I don't remember.

I'm planning to look at some of my previous games with GreyICE when I have enough time.

... No... I would love to agree with you and end it here, but I can't because your point isn't valid. You say taking a stance ruins scum motivation, and it doesn't. It increases it. Taking a stance and then pushing the opposite allows you to let the opposite thing happen (let's pretend it's a mislynch) and yet remain safe from the falloutt (because your 'stance' was on the other side). Scum have just pushed a mislynch, yet get a free pass because they laid down a 'fake' stance. The only way to attack them for it at this point? Argue 'fence sit", and looky at that, the 'fake stance' doubles as a defense to that attack. So there is HUGE scum motivation to do this.

But he made a definitive stance. That is what ruins the scum motivation. If he never made a definitive stance then it would have been fence sitting.

He said "It is also a reason why he would lie.... I believe this to be the case." It should be pretty clear that he was not fencesitting but considering possibilities when he said that he believed that.

And... I won't answer this now as it would defeat the purpose. If you cannot accept this then fine, It will have to do. I will only say that I've been playing this game for a long freaking time, and the title 'krap logick' isn't only about my logic being poor. It's about me being able to think outside the box and occasionally be spectacular at it.

I can tell you I have motivation for it and that motivation was in the best interest of the town. I can tell you that my reasons for ding it have already appeared to bare fruit, so to speak. And I can tell you that I believe I still have reasons not to go into it. As I said, you can either accept this or not... nothing I can or will do about it at this time.

What if you were scum and came in here and said "Trust me, I'm experienced. I don't need to give reasoning. Vote: T-Bone"?

And that answer, from my perspective, is impossible. Even in the event it IS the truth, that answer makes it impossible for me to go into further details as the answer itself is impossible. (or improbable, this hypothetical suggests it is not in fact impossible.)

I didn't explain (yet) because I needed you to answer first. Hence, why I asked you a question. Now that I have your answer, from the top of the page, I'll go into it. but I'm fairly certain your response will be to say that isn't your answer and try to use this 'improbably answer' as a way to wiggle out of it.

I am laughing at the irony here... Will probably go into this when I backtrack to the original point and finally explain the 'irksomeness' of your post...

I am confused. If it is the truth, how can it be impossible? Are you saying that it is impossible because you can not use it for whatever you planned to do with it?

Yeah this post

That's why

You're scum

He is scum because he is trying to get you to post content?

greenknight clearly believed his reasoning. Bad or wrong, he kept insisting on it for quite a while--this does not match with scummy behavior of testing the waters for a viable wagon. He really thought he knew what was up and had an opinion on it (unlike, guess who, jason). Yes, he kept pushing it for quite a while. How is this not also a possible town move? Town stick to their guns. Even when it became clear that people disagreed with him and it wouldn't be a viable wagon. What is the scum motivation to push it that way? And where did he keep defending his reasoning between unvoting and this post?

I believe that town are much more likely than scum to admit that they are wrong so that they can continue scumhunting elsewhere. Scum however, do not have that motivation and sometimes they fear that if they admit that they are wrong, it would be seen as a scumtell.

Is this a disguised "hypocrisy is a scumtell" I see? It's not. If greenknight is town, he knows he's town. He'll be more afraid of himself being quicklynched than of others being quicklynched.

I believe that in certain cases, Hypocrisy can be scummy. However, I did not state or imply that hypocrisy is a scumtell in this situation.

Also, a quicklynch is dangerous no matter who the target is.

I'm a village idiot according to you, who always plays anti-town. So your question has no purpose at all, according to your own posts.

Are you a village idiot who always plays anti-town?

If not, why did you vote Zang when you thought the guilty was faked and the outcome of a Zang lynch with a faked guilty would be so very obviously disastrous?

When did he state that you are a village idiot?

[Tierce]

jason: You accuse Grey of playing anti-town in every game. You are, apparently, conscious of a meta (true or not) that makes his play damaging to town regardless of his alignment.

And yet you kept voting Zang. You voted Zang after Grey made his daycop mention, which you first said you didn't believe, then went on to posit rather ridiculous alternatives (like a lyncher), then hinted at a 1v1. You were sowing confusion and encouraging this wagon created by a player who you say you don't drust.

This makes no sense from a town perspective. You're far from stupid, jason--if nothing else, your play in Team Mafia would show this. I see no reason for a town player to encourage something (the wagon) they claimed they didn't believe the reasons for (the daycop guilty).

[GreyICE]

Tierce townie coalition of goodness?


Questions that need to be answered:

Kortul

's vote is on T-Bone. He's pushing GreenKnight and uh... pretty much just sitting there and asking questions. He also doesn't seem to care if they're answered or not, I pretty much deliberately ignored some of them and he hasn't bothered to follow up. I should probably kick that hornet's nest to see what flies out someday. Also he's ignoring Jason like soooo hard (he pushed him a few days ago, and is now not, which means something).

CMAR is just doing a play-by-play on the thread for some reason. No one wants it or is interested, but I guess it resembles content.

Acosmist is town.

Iec is probs town.

Zang is probs town, even if he can't remember that every time he's played with me he's been on the same scumteam as me (of course he wasn't reading those games at all, so why should he remember?)

ACOSMIST AND TIERCE
TOWNIE COALITION OF GOODNESS

[greenknight]

I don't think Zang getting q

[Zang]

Zang is probs town, even if he can't remember that every time he's played with me he's been on the same scumteam as me (of course he wasn't reading those games at all, so why should he remember?)

I could have sworn that I played with you as town.

I don't think Zang getting q

What?

[GreyICE]

If you have Zang, it was such an amazing game I forgot it.

I really think the two times we were scum together were the only two times we've played together.

[Starbuck]

Starting on Page 6...

T-Bone seems to be on the borderline of white knighting and possibly distancing when it comes to greenknight in 127, and on the opposite, I see greenknight defending T-bone in 173. I think there's a link between the two of them.

Now with greenknight, he's trying to place a case on GreyICE over things that are null. Triangle has it completely right here:

Listing town reads is not even remotely close to being scummy. It's a null tell; in most cases, it doesn't give an indication towards either alignment.

This completely.

I would like to hear GreyICE's reasoning for his scum reads, but town reads really don't matter. He votes for and says that Jason is scum for no reason then lists off myself and greenknight as scum, again with no reasoning. Throwing reads out there with nothing to back them up gives them no leg to stand on.



In reply to Acosmist:

1. I mentioned WIFOM because that's exactly where green went. It may not bear on his alignment right at this moment, but it could farther down the line.

2. Again, I wasn't feeding any lines. I was asking a question as to why he finds me scummy, and obviously as you said, it couldn't be that because others did the same. But what if it was his reason? That's what I wanted to know, now instead of letting GreyICE answer for himself, you've succeeded in answering for him which is rather questionable.

I know I'm town and was in danger of being mislynched

That's a bunch of cow manure. You were no where near being lynched, are you always this jumpy when there are votes on you?

I'm surprised that people actually consider it acceptable practice for town to post this sort of list.

I would like you to give us a list of who considered it acceptable because I saw nothing of the sort.

Makes things too easy for scum, as people will tend to give a bit of towncred when someone calls them town.

Overreaching much?

Ironically, since she happens to be on Greyice's scum list, I do find Starbuck suspicious. Because she accuses me of trying too hard to put a case together against Zang, and I feel that's exactly what she's doing against me.

OMGUS to the extreme!

greenknight is freaking out about GreyICE. Seems like he wanted to railroad Zang and use GreyICE's "claim" as an excuse. Then the rug was pulled out from under him. :sadtrombone:

This is exactly what I was getting at! I'm trying to figure out if he's scum or just plain bad town.



I'm about midway through page 8. When I'm done catching up, I need to go back and re-read everything with Jason and I also need to re-read the whole T-Bone vs Korlash debacle to get a better grip on that.

[greenknight]

Not sure how I managed to delete most of that last post... I apparently fail at using this forum.

I don't think Zang being quicklynched on day 1 before Grey confirmed/retracted the claim was a realistic possibility. I wouldn't have voted him myself if I did. Seemed pretty clear that most people didn't believe the claim.

Grey, why did you change your read on me?

Zang, I already admitted the tell was wrong by answering "both", not sure why you have to ask again...

[Starbuck]

If Jason is scum, Starbuck seems like a likely scumfriend for her support of the green counterwagon while awkwardly ignoring jason altogether. I don't think she's even mentioned him at all.

Jason's comeback posts do nothing to change my view that he looks bad.

I think we should lynch Jason and then think seriously about lynching Starbuck given a Jasonscumflip.

I can agree with this reasoning. Once I'm done catching up, I'm in serious need of a re-back because I'm a bit lost on everything concerning Jason. That's why I haven't really mentioned him.

Seriously though, when did 200 word count become walls? Boy you lot these days sure lead such sheltered lives.

I'm wondering that too. Whiny bunch, the lot of em.

Yes, but at the time you admitted the scum tell you were using was not exactly infallible, you did not unvote. This in and of itself may or may not be scummy depending on the surrounding circumstances, but the reason it's scummy in this case is because you claimed your vote was primarily a pressure/reaction vote. So when the pressure was, as you say, gone, you continued to keep your vote on him, which shows that your vote in the first place was not genuine. It looks considerably more like you attempted to force bad reasoning into a Zang vote and are now trying to force bad reasoning into a Grey vote.

Q to the motherfrakking F T.

I couldn't have said this better myself.

I'm not caught up yet, but of the bit that I've read, I do want to say this. On my opinion of greenknight, it is not about him being wrong. It's the fact that he pushed it at all. He was trying to make a case of it and was really stretching to do so. That's what bothers me with that situation.

Arguing about the validity of one scum tell is not making a case. You and triangle are the ones stretching here.

It wasn't just one scum tell, green.

1. You said you did things to keep pressure on Zang, pressure was already on him, what else were you going to add to it?

2. You tried your best to roll with that wagon until you absolutely couldn't (thanks to GreyICE finally admitting that it was a discussion tactic) then you jumped off it and onto GreyICE for his null town/scum read list just because he listed you as scum.

3. You've only stated suspicion of Zang (because of GreyICE's "claim"), myself (because I find you suspicious), and GreyICE (because he listed you as scum). Can you say OMGUS six times fast? Because that's exactly what you are doing.

4. The aid that you and T-Bone seem to be giving each other is giving me warning bells. I'm going to safely say that if one of you flips scum than the other might as well.

I believe that town are much more likely than scum to admit that they are wrong so that they can continue scumhunting elsewhere. Scum however, do not have that motivation and sometimes they fear that if they admit that they are wrong, it would be seen as a scumtell.

Most definitely.

[greenknight]

Listing town reads is not even remotely close to being scummy. It's a null tell; in most cases, it doesn't give an indication towards either alignment.

This completely.

I would like to hear GreyICE's reasoning for his scum reads, but town reads really don't matter. He votes for and says that Jason is scum for no reason then lists off myself and greenknight as scum, again with no reasoning. Throwing reads out there with nothing to back them up gives them no leg to stand on.

If you don't approve of unexplained scum reads, is it hard to believe that I don't approve of unexplained reads in general?

I'm surprised that people actually consider it acceptable practice for town to post this sort of list.

I would like you to give us a list of who considered it acceptable because I saw nothing of the sort.

Seriously?? You just quoted triangle saying townlists are acceptable in the same post!

Ironically, since she happens to be on Greyice's scum list, I do find Starbuck suspicious. Because she accuses me of trying too hard to put a case together against Zang, and I feel that's exactly what she's doing against me.

OMGUS to the extreme!

Calling it OMGUS doesn't make it any less true.