Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

[Wisdom]

or do you mean on the beef wagon? in that case no, i like my thor vote

[the worst]

Naw here on the forum physically

What don't you like about the less cute duck?

[brassherald]

Mathdino's posts strike me as IIOA mixed with lurkscum opportunism

VOTE: Mathdino

What's IIOA?

[the worst]

Info instead of analysis

Scumishtell as scum will try to avoid having WRONG opinions I guess

[the worst]

Ftr Math's town playstyle is info analysis info analysis info analysis repeat. It's been established he has a vested interest in sharing setup related info. Claiming he's scum doing IIOA is literally a "sorry my cat was typing" calibre post

[brassherald]

Okay, I definitely don't have the time before work to do my larger and more traditional catch up, however, after reading a bit and doing a few ISOs Beefster has posted very little in terms of analysis, is very surface reads.

Math tried to break the newbie setup in the one completed game I have with him, he was town there and seems to be towning here as well.

I had to metadive Wisdom a bit to see that his low content posting is pretty much just what he does so I have no clue how to read him.

VOTE: Beefster

Until I can actually sit down, read and make true mental notes on every player tonight, this seems like a good vote.

[the worst]

From what I understand Wisdom makes a valiant effort to be unmetareadable.

Share your mental notes please!

[brassherald]

From what I understand Wisdom makes a valiant effort to be unmetareadable.

Share your mental notes please!

Will do when they are formed.

The first step is a full reread of the thread, which will take probably my entire lunch hour

[Nauci]

Okay I'm still dying of flu but for the moment my 104.1 has dropped to a cool 101.9 so I tried to catch up. Brain is fuzzy af so I'm sorry if I misread stuff. Not going to go as tryhard in depth as I have in previous games because I won't be awake long enough to cite all of my sources.

Spoiler: On BG Claiming:

Why on earth would we advocate for a BG claim? Okay since I'm kinda new still, I'm going to break this down out loud for my sake:

If there is a BG who doesn't claim:

-BG would die in the event that BG tried to protect IC, and the IC is targetted. If an unclaimed BG dies, we can be reasonably sure due to low probability of scum independently guessing who the BG is, that the IC was targetted.
-Upon BG's death, we learn that it was a 2nd TRP.
-Scum may choose a different target because the IC may not die but there may be other, more powerful TPR to take a shot at

If there is a BG, who claims:

-Scum would almost definitely shoot the BG. We lose potentially telling information, even if NK analysis can be WIFOM.
-If scum doesn't shoot the BG, it'll be to make it look like a fake claim, and there's a possibility of mislynching.
-Scum know two of the X number of TPR in the game, narrowing down if they have to worry about much scarier shit like GC or Vig.
-There's a minimum of 2 TPR anyway, so non-PR town don't gain any info immediately
-IC knows they get to live another day for sure?
-Town has no idea if it's a real or fake claim

If there isn't a BG, and we claim there isn't one:

-Scum narrow down what TPR they're up against
-We lose IC for sure tonight
-Only TPR would glean any information useful for town2

If there isn't a BG, and scum fake claim:

-Town doesn't find out the BG is fake until the next day, based on NK
-Potentially lynch fake claimer day 2
-Town has no idea if it's a real or fake claim on day 1
-Fake claimer doesn't get lynched

I mean, not only am I not seeing why we would do that, I don't see how someone who has any experience or understanding of the game or setup could possibly suggest this in good faith.

Spoiler: On Thor

On that note, my hot take on all these Thor posts is that he argues bullishly with bad faith arguments. I think that saying voting town reads is categorically bad, or proposing bg claim, or even saying name/name format means scum team and not scum reads, are intentionally stirring up debate that's easy to post about without needing any genuinely alignment indicative motivation. I am highly skeptical that he believed any of those things. Admittedly, I'm often biased against aggressive tones and for pedantic ones, even if I try not to.

Spoiler: On Mathdino

I am wary with how often Mathdino has appealed to meta. It's one thing to talk about meta with people one is experienced with (e.g. I had a good game with brass), or to cite a lot of examples from previous games. But I feel like there's a lot of uncited chatter about how someone is not playing their town/scum game without actually knowing their metas, and being able to sound both authoritative and tryhard, relying on other players in the game not caring to research themselves.

I don't know what he has read on the others like Thor, but I've only had one opportunity to be scum and that game last barely a day and a half, with my scum partner accidentally giving away the game almost immediately. I had a great day 1 that game which IMO sounded mostly like my town meta. Every other game I've played I've been town, so I concur with Thor that I don't understand these statements about my scum vs town range. However, Math is accurate that I "buddy" people as town, it's just something I always do. Or rather, IDGAF how my posts look to other people, and will agree or disagree with people as I see fit. I get accused of buddying a lot because often, my views happen to align a lot with another player (which isn't even something I find alignment indicative).

His setup spec posts feel genuinely pro-town, among other stuff.

Spoiler: On MariaR

And to clarify, since I think someone asked. I didn't take sides on Mathdino v Maria. I am not even sure what the hell they were really arguing about. I just had a very visceral reaction to her aggressive tone and the specifically patronizing phrasing like

"like a reasonable adult"

so I impulsively commented on it. It definitely made it hard to read her posts at the time, but I've since gone back and read and processed the more substantive posts. I know it sounds like some sexist men can be assertive but women are bitchy shit but I'm pretty sure MD's challenges didn't drip with condescension.

I play Mafia like it's a courtroom where we're defendant, witness, lawyer, and jury. I prefer most information presented in witness form, and lawyer arguments to lynch once enough data is at hand.

I like Espeonage and Wisdom and TW posts. I don't want to put Thor at -1 yet so let me just throw a subpoena at VOTE: brassherald because you should come back and play with us with. The water's nice!

[Nauci]

Oops I didn't see a bunch of the new comments. Also oops I think Thor is at -3, not -2?

Eh I'll keep the vote where it is until we get the highly anticipated reread posts.

[HeWhoSwims]

jmo16mla has been prodded.

[Wisdom]

What don't you like about the less cute duck?

his posts were feeling awkward
i kind of liked the reads post though

[Thor665]

thor i'm gonna be honest this is kinda muddying the game

i don't consider the answers produced by your questions to be especially alignment indicative

I don't care that my scumhunting posts are not helpful to your scumhunting efforts. You are allowed to do whatever it takes to allow you to scumhunt.

l

Edit: are you seriously arguing this thor
like do you actually believe the bodyguard should claim

Confirmable town Day 1, auto sorted Day 2 or scum are obligated not to shoot 100% confirmed town slot the entire game.
What's the reason a BG shouldn't?

1. I get the feeling you agree with my assertion regarding brass. It's mostly gut currently but IMO a decent place to start. You're nullreading him which to me seems like you don't disagree that he's not particularly readable at the moment. Do you have issues with my read or do you just want me to talk you through my thought process?

2. I do find him more evasive than Wisdom. Wisdom has presented reads and engaged with the game, as previously stated I'm leaning town on him rn. How are you reading Wisdom here?

3. (addressing #2) I think what's Smurfing with me here is I just don't agree with your read, allowing that it's not impossible we've reached different conclusions naturally. Nauci's entrance was lacking and awkward but I do not find it scummy. Her posting since has been pretty towny imo. I understand what you've said about her but given I just flatly can't organically reach the same conclusions. On the flipside, you seem really confident with it and I am struggling to sort whether this case has been formed organically or fabricated.

1. I want you to back up what you claimed, nothing more, nothing less - I don't understand why we're walking in circles to do it. If you can't show a post and explain your reasoning just say so. If you can, then do that. Why is it taking 50 questions to get there?

2. I am currently leaning scum on Wisdom.

3. Why do I seem so confident in my read that your only solution is to ask me to explain something I already explained? That's the part that confuses me. If I explained it, and you disagree - isn't that already the end of the conversation as far as me explaining it? Isn't the next step to ask questions about the read as opposed to asking me to repeat myself? You've *still* not gone into the read I have on him, you've just asked me to repeat a case and then called me terrible for not doing so, even while admitting you're fully aware of the case. That makes no sense to me.

A player of your caliber should know this:

If Scum didn't pick any additional abilities, the BG outing gives them free pass to fake claim Goon Cop/Rolelocker with no consequences at all. I consider this a scum slip from you since I know you're not that bad based on my personal experience with you.

So your argument is that a town PR claim that will give us a 2nd confirmed town and effect scum NK choices is suboptimal because scum can then not be caught fakeclaiming BG...as though any scum could *ever* fakeclaim BG in a setup with an Innocent Child?

What am I missing here?
Either I'm being dumb or you are. We both seem to think it's the other - can you clarify your stance a bit more? I think mine is made pretty clear above.

What don't you like about the less cute duck?

his posts were feeling awkward
i kind of liked the reads post though

Are you intentionally ducking explaining why you scum read me while voting me?

That's scummy.
Whassup?

[Thor665]

@JJD - reading your comment again and getting more of the gist I believe - the most I get is "scum can fakeclaim more securely"
Yeah...I guess?
But, then again, scum can do that if we run up a PR and they claim. And scum can (and should) be fakeclaiming regardless so...?
Basically you're pointing out that scum can fakeclaim and then acting like it's a revelation.

Just as a thought experiment to showcase why i disagree with your logic.
Why would a scum *not* fakeclaim rolecop if a BG didn't claim?
Because the only answer there is - fear of counterclaim/fear of having to explain lack of death at endgame.
The second exists regardless of BG claim.
The first is, at the point scum is having to claim, a benefit for scum if it happens because at least in death they out and kill a PR.

[Wisdom]

most of what you're posting is pointless and just there to make you look busy

including your questions to me

[the worst]

jesus fucking christ someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed again

[Thor665]

most of what you're posting is pointless and just there to make you look busy

including your questions to me

Why do you think me constantly asking people their thoughts or to explain their stances is pointless?

jesus Smurfing christ someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed again

I feel like you're inserting a lot more vitriol into my posts then my words indicate should be there.
For starters, I haven't dropped an F-bomb yet, unlike multiple other players, yet apparently I'm coming off aggro to you?
Could you address my questions now?

[Thor665]

@Wisdom - you literally just claimed that me asking you to explain your scum reads is a "pointless question"
Think about that.
One of us is *really* confused about how the game is played if you are being honest right now.

[the worst]

what do you want me to address? i've been trying to respond to you and you just keep waffling about how you're not satisfied with my answers.



not really game related here but swearing =/= aggression. here swearing = frustration, and slight distaste. I'd say you're the first person I've met onsite who's been actively uncomfortable to play with, and it's making me wonder whether there's something wrong with the way I play or what. :/

like at this point it just feels like you're trying to discredit heaps of people, asking annoying questions and intentionally trying to come off as superior??? in some way without actually engaging with people

[Wisdom]

just vote him and then ignore him like ill do

[Thor665]

what do you want me to address? i've been trying to respond to you and you just keep waffling about how you're not satisfied with my answers.

How am I waffling?
I really feel I'm being very clear about my issues and what I'm asking.
What have I changed opinions on/been unclear about exactly? I'll happily clarify.

not really game related here but swearing =/= aggression. here swearing = frustration, and slight distaste. I'd say you're the first person I've met onsite who's been actively uncomfortable to play with, and it's making me wonder whether there's something wrong with the way I play or what. :/

How am I making you uncomfortable or being rude?
I feel you've been rude to me but I feel I've been very polite towards you - if it's something I'm doing then please describe it and I'll stop.
Unless it's 'asking you questions you refuse to answer'

like at this point it just feels like you're trying to discredit heaps of people, asking annoying questions and intentionally trying to come off as superior??? in some way without actually engaging with people

I think it is openly provable I'm trying to engage with people - you have to be aware I've been asking you a question for a while, not feeling I'm getting an answer, and openly repeating the question to you repeatedly very clearly - and you *have* to agree you haven't given a clear answer to it since otherwise you ought to be able to quote it back at me, yeah? I'm enggaging, I'll agree I'm not connecting as much as I'd like, but that takes two to tango, yeah?

Who have I tired to discredit and how?
I've explained why I disagree with people when I do.
I think you're either lying to me about this stance, or are allowing confirm bias to get at you.
Let's look at two recent exchanges.

Me: @Wisdom - why do you scumread me?
Wisdom: ::ignores my question::
Me: Are you intentionally ignoring my question, that's scummy.
Wisdom: Your posts are pointless, like the ones at me, that's why you're scummy.
Me: How is asking you why you scumread me pointless?
Wisdom: I'm ignoring Thor!

Like...I'm not discrediting him. *he's* the one being obtuse, difficult, and unreasonable there in my opinion.
Let's look at another.

Me: @MathDino - why aren't you advancing a given setup break (BG claiming)?
MD: OMFG why would you think I believe someing so #(*^@*% stupid!?!
Me: Because of my past experiences with you - why aren't you advancing that?
MD: That's really #(*$(*%$ stupid, why do you think they should, they shouldn't!!!
Me: For these reasons - why do you think they shouldn't?

Again, I feel I'm asking something very clear and reasonable and getting a CRAZY amount of flak in exchange.

It's how I feel about our exchange too.

Please let me know if you see me lying in any of the above breakdowns.

Please look at how Wisdom, you, and Math are interacting with me and let me know how I started it. I'll agree it's happening enough that I can't think you're all jerks - but literally all I'm doing is asking why you are/aren't doing something or to explain your thoughts on something, and I get a lot of heat for it.

I'll agree people think i come off as superior. I have often asked why or how I can change that - I never get an answer. Sorry if you're getting that, it's not intentional - if you can tell me how it's happening let me know and I'll adjust.

[Mathdino]

So there's basically no way we lynch anyone other than Beefster and thor today

[the worst]

fair response. I'm putting a lot more effort into trying to sort through why our communication sUx rn but I'll try and give some succinct answers at the end.
re Wisdom's suggestion I would strongly prefer to actually try and talk to you than being tipped over into scumreading you for policy reasons...

Spoiler: our conversation

relevant oversharing: I tend to try and come from the point of view that everyone is at least as good as me (like even shit-house players will have good reads from time to time, and it's difficult to gauge when one is playing atrociously XD), and ask open questions to encourage some kind of conversation/open answer. i'll respond sporadically if i feel like it but trying to sort town and gauge town cohesiveness is really fun for me.

i also try to answer questions openly, with my current feelings/thoughts etc. where i can. so far I haven't found like, anyone difficult to talk to in this regard. ftr as far as pointed questions go, i've taken harder grillings than what you're dishing from better players than myself but found them regularly more willing to try and connect


as far as trying to be less condescending, I guess
- Everyone has something to contribute, and if a response/answer doesn't feel directly appropriate/doesn't contain what you're asking for, try and actually converse with them instead of call outs on shit like "ignoring your questions". in this instance i'm responding directly to your posts with content that I feel is helpful, at least in my own playstyle, but it feels met with resistance.
- it's also really important IMO to (using your language) try and connect with players. this definitely involves a level of adjustment to playstyles, posting styles, personalities etc. I suspect this is fucking with us. besides the fact our timezones don't seem very compatible, it feel like we're throwing posts at each other with absolutely zero chemistry.



like fmpov our liaison so far is this. I understand your pov on it is probably very very different but candidly it doesn't feel like you've made any effort at all to come to my level which is frustrating as fuck. you've come off as condescending and evasive (which may be unintentional--that's what I actively want to work out right now).

if I lose my temper a little this is probably actually why, I may have been spoiled with highly charismatic/sociable players so far

54 you ask why I think brass>Nauci for scum
72 I explain Nauci presents as awkward>scummy and brass feels withheld. I don't feel your case on Nauci so I ask if you can explain it in the context of brass vs. Nauci133
133 you query my wording around my brass read ("because that sounds like a fanciful way of saying 'gut'" is pretty much correct, but please appreciate that I selected those words because they explain my reasoning and approach to the gut read better than just "gut feeling" throwaway). I'm reading the question as "can you give me examples or is this just gut?", which admittedly may be a misread. besides this rather than respond you ask why I'm asking the question.
135 I explain my choice of words around the early brass read and that I want to see how you're thinking
163 you ignore my explanation on my wording and ask me to try again. then ask me to elaborate on what specifically I want from you. feels condescending and like you're trying not to engage.
184 I explain my read on brass is indeed just bad vibes. (currently feeling this echoes back to my misread on your original question) lost my shit a bit here because I felt like I was talking to a brick wall reiterated my question, why is Nauci>brass scum?
195 is basically a rehash of your last post - asked for examples & why I'm asking about your Nauci read
210 since it felt like we were going in circles I asked your read on brass. elaborated a bit more on my feeling but also I'm not going to case someone this early (my issue with him is low content + I'm no pedant. this ALWAYS presents as stretching). suggested reading his ISO. [probably could've benefited from saying this at the time - at this stage there is nothing in his ISO which DOESN'T contribute to my paranoia]
214 gets on my tits again because like, I'm genuinely tryingggg here and your "Sure, you have to turn this around because you're desperate not to answer fairly simple questions " just presents as needlessly condescending again. also you're nullreading brass which makes me feel we're probably on the same page somewhat?? asked re my read on wisdom & stated I was ignoring question 2 which is probably fair since it was pissing me off at the time
217 FIGJAM moment fite me. I asked what your intention with the brass question was. tried to assess why we were clashing so hard on the Nauci vs brass question. we appear to like black & white clash on the subject of Nauci's alignment so I explained why I was actually asking the question in the first place (reassess my read and attempt to sort you). I want you to talk more about how you've reached the conclusion that Nauci is scum. [use the context of 'as opposed to those of us who are townreading her', if that makes it easier for you to respond to.]
237 again not a fan of you referring to my actual posting style as walking in circles & 50 questions. I'll actually come back to what you've actually asked for here because that's a lot clearer. then basically just explained that you don't want to converse further re your Nauci read, all the while trying to shade my attempt to engage further conversation about it.
writing off 240-245 bc it preempts this post.


I'm not asking you to like, seek a confession and renounce your entire personality or anything like that. the fact that we're thinking differently is chilled. just please try and see where I'm coming from a little? if you're unsatisfied with my posting style, I'd deeply appreciate it if you'd default to explaining clearly what you want and why you want it (and even WHY my post is unsatisfactory), rather than just saying you don't like my answers and assuming I'm dodging your question because I "can't answer simple questions". I cannot see how that benefits your play, and ya it is rude.

effortposting to this extent lowkey disgusts me but if it means we can actually exist in the same player lists I'd rather get it over with.

[the worst]

@Thor, re brass:

Spoiler: nai rvs banter

Morning, boyos, let's do this thing.

VOTE: Nauci

For not remembering me

Do you remember me?

Of course I do. You sang the lead vocals on Wolves, Lower, right?

I didn't even think of that. My whole thought process was that maybe 7 Chinese Brothers may sound racist

Spoiler: looking busy vibe

VOTE: Nauci

Serious vote.

Upon what is the serious vote based?

VOTE: Nauci

Serious vote.

Upon what is the serious vote based?

Nervousness in his post. "Hello everyone, never done this before."

VOTE: nauci

I guess that's a better case than the RVS, though, I did direct the question at Thor, so maybe he has further reasoning.

I'll look for Thor's response as well.

Case on brass is just the badvote. Scumread is about equal to Duck.

My vote was RVS, I'm pretty behind in the game itself, because I was not really online last night, but I haven't made a serious vote yet.

UNVOTE:

Nauci's wagon's just too big for me to leave my RVS vote there still. I'll read more after I put on my glasses and drink some coffee then form a few reads, do no readlists and make a real vote. I just skimmed for what was related to me.

"hey don't try and read me!!"





I don't see how you find these posts anything but evasive, and I'm not sure you actually disagree.
still need to parse his most recent posts as I've been otherwise engaged
either way happier with my vote where it is rn

[Mathdino]

thor it's not even necessarily that BG claim is utterly awful
i'm almost positive it doesn't change EV at all; it doesn't change claiming strategy because the IC's death will just confirm lack of BG

the point is that there's no universe in which town-you thinks that's a good idea

also i literally modded this setup and then called the D1 BG claim stupid

so if you're trying to argue that mathdino could be scum for not coming up with a "breaking strategy" that you expect, that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard