Mini Normal 2107 (Game Over)

[profii]

Wimpy do you think there are 4 scum here ?

[Vorkuta]

So where did I go wrong?

you have yet to demonstrate that town!wake would do the same thing.
which is basically EXACTLY what Elements said in #173
Have we gone full circle yet?

Why are you just taking their word for it?

I don't even give a shit if

he doesn't

they don't

link it because wake would object loudly if

elements is

lying.

Because I think that people won't get dirty and "below-the-belt" by pulling shit up that can be EASILY disproven and will ruin their credibility COMPLETELY if done so.
That's on par with editing quotes.

Spoiler:

I won't be arguing anymore. It really fucks with my anxiety and makes the game not fun and I play to have fun.

sorry and hope you feel ok. genuine apologies for if I'm pushing you overboard

I have him as a scum lean. He seems like he wants to start arguments with me.

No shit. You started the game by blindly policy'ing me, so ofc I want to know if you're stubborn town or scum. I'm well aware of how anti-town it is to continue engaging, but I'm already self-voting so let's see how long you last without conceding.

He is also very hypocritical in his arguments. accusing me of stuff but not others who have done the same thing.

I fail to see the double standard. If you've invoked something ridiculous, it's only fair that I use it against you to see whether it holds or not. Profi and saudade haven't done anything ridiculous that I can throw back in their face

Accusing me of cherry picking when his cherry picking argument is actually him cherry picking

this is too big brain for me. Where did I dig up a random statistically insignificant data point again?

[profii]

I just want to make 3 points to Wimpy about this Wake read


- Saudade said “someone” singular
- I also said “someone” singular - I had a specific example in mind
- I also later hypothesised that it’s feasible I’m wrong - ie acknowledging it would be wrong to consider this a 100% reliable scum tell

So I don’t understand where Wimpy is going at all - hence I’m not bothering to really respond to his questions too directly - it’ll probably take over the thread and be detrimental

[Wimpy]

Elly has said that there exists a game where scum!wake does it. I don't even give a shit if he doesn't link it because wake would object loudly if elements is lying.

ok that is fine, but I do care. if wake did this as scum, i want to see. I tried to find something and stopped when I got to 2015 games.

As town it is our job to look through what is the truth and what isn't. if somebody is saying something is true, I would like to see it

THUS your argument is valid, if you can find (cherrypick) a game where WAKE HIMSELF pulls this as town.

why can't I just make the statement that Wake does this as town? You did just say elements doesn't have to provide a link so why would I have to?

You're trying to get us to prove a negative.

No I am not actually. I am just merely trying to show that wake's statement isn't alignment indicative because imo it isn't. Elements wants to say he only does it as scum then I will definitely consider that but I need proof. I can't blindly believe anyone in this game.

because
-We dislike the premises of your logic
-We dislike the validity of your logic
-Wake should be able to defend himself- why are you interjecting/white-knighting on his behalf?
-It's a solid case, and you're derailing it which is anti-town (inb4 self-voting is antitown hurrdurr)

this is terrible reasons to start an argument with me. We can play this game without getting hostile. You have insulted me and cursed at me and neither of these things are acceptable.

And stop saying "we". This isn't about we, this is about you.

You disagree with my premise, fine you are free to disagree. That still doesn't give you the right to argue with me. Do you think you are going to change my mind? Just agree to disagree and move on

You disagree with the validity of my logic? That's fine. If I had more time I am sure I could find more examples of games where town did it, but you for some reason have a close mind. i don't know why but we will just move this to the agree to disagree column and move on

I am actually not defending Wake or his actions. That would mean I agree with what he did and i don't. I would never want somebody to hammer without a claim or a chance to give final reads, but because he does, doesn't make him scum. This again isn't my opinion, this is FACT.

Why am i interjecting? because every player should be involved in this discussion. I want to find scum. I want to lynch scum. I don't think the reasons why Wake is being voted are any sort of indication of his alignment so I am speaking out. Why should I bite my tongue? Keeping my thoughts and opinions, no matter how unpopular isn't how to play this game.

I am not white knighting Wake but I could see why you might think that.

I am afraid to burst your bubble here but "Wake said he will hammer without a claim" and "he isn't producing useful content" is far from solid.

The reality is nobody has provided a solid case for their scum reads. I don't know if anyone ever will have enough to make a solid case, but based on everything said so far, there are definitely better people to lynch instead of wake.

[Saudade]

Okay, you guys stop it now and move on.
The last 10 pages of content are literally useless (well almost, its only use is for townreading wimpy but thats very narrow)

WHERE ARE THE OTHER PEOPLE

[Wimpy]

Why are you providing links to the games I participated in when someone town did it and not presenting a balanced view of the games where scum did it

because i don't need to. You already claimed you found scum doing it and it was that reason why you think wake is scum.

The fact that you have seen town do it also and still hold the believe that wake is scum because of it shows dishonesty. This action should be null to you since you have seen both scum and town do it.

[Montosh]

Please do not making wagers surrounding sigs. Also let's please keep it civil.

VC 1.2

Wake88 (3):

Saudade, profii, Vorkuta

Saudade (2):

Saladman27, Looker

Wimpy (2):

Elements, Zote the Mighty

Saladman27 (1):

UltimatePlank

Vorkuta (1):

alimdia

profii (1):

Wimpy

Not voting (1):

Wake88

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

[Wimpy]

If self hammering is against the rules do you have a problem with scum self hammering at L-1 to limit discussion and hinder town - that’s pro-scum and if they didn’t do it would break the play to your win con rule

That underlying point is people are saying “rules are rules” but the rules conflict each other so let’s not get bogged down in that

yes I have a problem with anyone self voting.

[Wimpy]

Wimpy do you think there are 4 scum here ?

no

[Wimpy]

you have yet to demonstrate that town!wake would do the same thing.

I don't have to do that though. All I need to do is pull from my own experiences (like saudade and profli have done saying wake is scum) to know that town do this also.

[Vorkuta]

if wake did this as scum, i want to see. I tried to find something and stopped when I got to 2015 games.

I think you're missing the entire point.
We're criticizing your havo evidence and refusing to let it stand.
It's not up to us to provide such things- you're the one that's "obsessed" with people doing things in prior games.

Heaven help me if I want to play this game alone by its own merits. That's probably why you made an alt account in the first place.

why can't I just make the statement that Wake does this as town? You did just say elements doesn't have to provide a link so why would I have to?

Ok fine I'll play: Does a game where town!wake pulls this exist? Yes or No?

I can't blindly believe anyone in this game.

I think that's our issue: I don't blindly believe elly.
I think elly is a rational

agent

player and knows the consequences of lying. He has made an informed choice.
If he is lying, it will be found out eventually and he will be in a horrible position as a result.
That's not the same as "blindly believing", but it's subtly what you're trying to say I'm doing.

You have insulted me and cursed at me and neither of these things are acceptable.

The cursing- I concede. As you can see in this post, I'm trying to keep my sailor mouth under control.
The insulting- you have opened up the floor to that by questioning my decision-making back in #64
If there's something that tremendously vexxes you and isn't based on fact, then point it out and I will take it back and apologize.

but you for some reason have a close mind

-not insulting at all
-says the person advocating for policy lynches

That would mean I agree with what he did and i don't

False. This is factually false (english...)
You are trying to convince people that wake is NULL and not scum.
This is completely and 100% independent to your personal beliefs (or endorsement) on quickhammering.

And stop saying "we". This isn't about we, this is about you.

1- royal british first person plural we (pardon my grammar)
2- profi, papa mason, and elements probably don't mind me speaking on their behalf for a tiny bit as we mindmeld on this

I am afraid to burst your bubble here but "Wake said he will hammer without a claim" and "he isn't producing useful content" is far from solid.

You've dug yourself in a hole and thus contradicted yourself.
Pick 1 of the following
A: Wade was serious about quickhammering and has thus produced useful content. Which means all of our quickhammering arguments hold.
B: Wade wasn't being serious about quickhammering, and thus hasn't produced "useful" content. Which is a perfectly valid reason to scum read him considering how many opportunities he's had to contribute so far.
Have you ISO'd him recently? He's done nothing but invoke his rule over and over, and... uh.... whatever that recent thing was.

The reality is nobody has provided a solid case for their scum reads

Here's mine- stripped down to barebones, WITHOUT invoking any meta from any previous games whatsoever.
I still think it stands and was uncontested.

For posterity- wake's scumread is NOT because of his shitty opening (maybe 10%)

BUT because of the following hypocrisy/doublestandard of invoking the gamerule.
>when vork self votes, then it's against wincon
>but when wake lol!quickhammers ASAP, then it's ok and totally according to his wincon.

pedit

I don't have to do that though. All I need to do is pull from my own experiences (like saudade and profli have done saying wake is scum) to know that town do this also.

Ok good.
THIS IS NOW YOUR ARGUMENT.
You have conceded that you cannot provide FACTUAL HARD EVIDENCE to back up your point.
You have lowered your standards to "pulling from your own experiences".
Now I'm happy.

Now I can disagree with you based on the fact that saudade's, profli's, and to a certain extent my own experience(s) (or gut feelings idk) outweigh yours.
That was my entire point of contention- you tried augment your point HARD EVIDENCE (which was invalid as previously mentioned).
Now that you've dropped it I'm

slightly less unhappy

happy

[Looker]

If self hammering is against the rules do you have a problem with scum self hammering at L-1 to limit discussion and hinder town - that’s pro-scum and if they didn’t do it would break the play to your win con rule

That underlying point is people are saying “rules are rules” but the rules conflict each other so let’s not get bogged down in that

I have a problem with rules being broken. If rules are disagreed with, they should be addressed and reviewed, not broken.

• If discussion is still needed, any member on that wagon can unvote
• It's up to the Moderator to interpret and deconflict the rules - not me

[Wimpy]

No shit. You started the game by blindly policy'ing me, so ofc I want to know if you're stubborn town or scum. I'm well aware of how anti-town it is to continue engaging, but I'm already self-voting so let's see how long you last without conceding.

yes I started the game with a policy vote and for some reason that angered you. You have used that anger to argue with me about everything.

My point is I view Wake's statement as null and I disagree with anyone who says he is scum because of that statement. I would never be ok with a lynch on any player because they said that. Your point about Wake not contributing is valid but it is also not AI unfortunately.

I fail to see the double standard. If you've invoked something ridiculous, it's only fair that I use it against you to see whether it holds or not. Profi and saudade haven't done anything ridiculous that I can throw back in their face

See, I don't think I have done anything ridiculous and I absolutely believe both profli and saudade have. I will also throw you in this pile because of the reasons why you scum read wake. Scum reading wake for that statement is ridiculous to me.

this is too big brain for me. Where did I dig up a random statistically insignificant data point again?

See this is the problem. I didn't dig up a random statistically insignificant data point.

profli has seen both town and scum do this so i don't understand how he can strong scum read that act when it should be null.

[Zote the Mighty]

If self hammering is against the rules do you have a problem with scum self hammering at L-1 to limit discussion and hinder town - that’s pro-scum and if they didn’t do it would break the play to your win con rule

That underlying point is people are saying “rules are rules” but the rules conflict each other so let’s not get bogged down in that

I have a problem with rules being broken. If rules are disagreed with, they should be addressed and reviewed, not broken.

• If discussion is still needed, any member on that wagon can unvote
• It's up to the Moderator to interpret and deconflict the rules - not me

Self-hammering as town = anti-wincon

Self-hammering as scum = not anti-wincon for the reasons profii stated and it's a tactic I've seen scum use. I once played a game where 5p lylo lasted for like two hours because tracker had a guilty on someone, and the scum self hammered. I'll let you guess who won that game.

[Zote the Mighty]

Is there anything important I need to know about the Wimpy/Vork/profii discussions that have clogged up the last three pages? I need to enter Hallownest to slay some nefarious beasts soon so I don't have time to read it.

[Zote the Mighty]

Okay, you guys stop it now and move on.
The last 10 pages of content are literally useless (well almost, its only use is for townreading wimpy but thats very narrow)

WHERE ARE THE OTHER PEOPLE

I've been resting.

Precept Three: Always Be Rested. Fighting and adventuring (and playing mafia) take their toll on your body. When you rest, your body strengthens and repairs itself. The longer you rest, the stronger you become.

[Saudade]

I think zote is hilarious

[Saudade]

Also you are spending so much energy arguing with wimpy but it doesnt bring us an inch closer to our goal, so, again, vorkuta!!! Focus child

[Saudade]

Its not about who is right in this argument its about making sure we lynch scum d1 and then do it again tomorrow

[profii]

Why are you providing links to the games I participated in when someone town did it and not presenting a balanced view of the games where scum did it

because i don't need to. You already claimed you found scum doing it and it was that reason why you think wake is scum.

The fact that you have seen town do it also and still hold the believe that wake is scum because of it shows dishonesty. This action should be null to you since you have seen both scum and town do it.

You are telling me how to play?

Ok well you just do this for me and I’ll come back later

[Wimpy]

We're criticizing your havo evidence and refusing to let it stand.

My havo evidence doesn't have anything to do with Wake's alignment. You do realize that right? I mean sure it can also be used to show that statement is NAI, but the point of me posting it was to show profli's dishonesty. Or at least what I perceived as dishonesty. I seem to be all alone on that ship also.

Ok fine I'll play: Does a game where town!wake pulls this exist? Yes or No?

I honestly don't know. I don't know if one where he is scum exists either. It doesn't matter. Why do you keep thinking it does? I don't need to find a game where wake as town said that to know that the statement is null. That is just me using common sense.

I think that's our issue: I don't blindly believe elly.
I think elly is a rational agent player and knows the consequences of lying. He has made an informed choice.

the problem here is I don't interpret elly's statement the same way you do. I don't think he was saying he has seen wake as scum do this. His post read as somebody else made that argument and he was going along with it. he also said I should check his games, which I have done and i can't find any completed games where wake has done it so if somebody is making that argument that wake has done it as scum, I would like a link.

The insulting- you have opened up the floor to that by questioning my decision-making back in #64

I am sorry if you felt I insulted you, but a person who decides to break the game and site rules and votes for themselves for the lulz doesn't show good decision making to me. Next time I will keep my opinion to myself. My apologies, but you calling me an idiot and cursing at me when you can just speak to me calmly is just not acceptable. I saw your apology. Thank you.

-not insulting at all
-says the person advocating for policy lynches

Saying you have a closed mind when you actually do isn't an insult. you have straight up refused to consider my counter points about wake.
I wasn't really advocating a policy lynch though. Placing a policy lynch vote in lieu of a RVS vote is what I did. But if you have issues with people advocating a policy lynch. Look at this list

Wake88 (3): Saudade, profii, Vorkuta

You can argue til you are blue in the face, but voting wake for saying he will hammer day 1 without a claim IS a policy lynch vote.

You are trying to convince people that wake's post about hammering day 1 is NULL and not scum.

I fixed your post to reflect what i am actually doing. Now that is fixed. What is the problem with that? Wake's post isn't AI. Never has been, never will be.

Did you know I have seen scum self vote in RVS before? If i used that to call you scum, that would make me no better than the three of you. I know better though cause it isn't AI. neither is Wake's comment.

So let's ignore the comment all together and focus on anything else wake does to determine his alignment ok?

You've dug yourself in a hole and thus contradicted yourself.
Pick 1 of the following
A: Wade was serious about quickhammering and has thus produced useful content. Which means all of our quickhammering arguments hold.
B: Wade wasn't being serious about quickhammering, and thus hasn't produced "useful" content. Which is a perfectly valid reason to scum read him considering how many opportunities he's had to contribute so far.
Have you ISO'd him recently? He's done nothing but invoke his rule over and over, and... uh.... whatever that recent thing was.

I don't think I have dug myself into a hole at all.

I will go with C: Wake was serious about quickhammering and hasn't provided useful content

But I don't actually know if wake was serious or not. I also don't really want to test him either. The proper way to handle this is, nobody put a player to L-1 until we are sure we want them lynched just in case wake is serious.

I don't disagree with you that wake has not provided content. I just disagree with you that not providing content = scum

Here's mine- stripped down to barebones, WITHOUT invoking any meta from any previous games whatsoever.
I still think it stands and was uncontested.

I don't consider that very solid personally.

I much prefer a player who says he is voting somebody for something that he has caught scum doing before but neglects to mention he has seen town do the same thing and can't really explain how he was able to make the determination. That's still not solid but I'd put mine higher than yours.

You have conceded that you cannot provide FACTUAL HARD EVIDENCE to back up your point.

Well two things.
1. if we are being technical, nobody has provided hard evidence that supports wake is scum because he said he would hammer somebody to get to l-1.
2. I have shown evidence that town also make that statement. That already is more than what anyone else has shown. Nobody has provided a link to a game where scum did it. It doesn't matter though cause i don't need to see that game to believe it happened. Just like i didn't need to provide evidence that town can make those statements also.

In mafia, you aren't going to have hard evidence.

You have lowered your standards to "pulling from your own experiences".

How is that lowering my standards? everyone's opinions about mafia are developed from personal experiences. Mine is no different. I am also trying to educate people because unless you/profil/saudade are the scum team, somebody is misguided and I have been trying to show that.

[Wimpy]

Self-hammering as scum = not anti-wincon for the reasons profii stated and it's a tactic I've seen scum use.

I disagree with this. any self vote/hammer is against win-con

[Wimpy]

You are telling me how to play?

idk how you take that as me telling you how to play. That is me telling you why i scum read you.

[Saudade]

Oh my god stop

[Wimpy]

Its not about who is right in this argument its about making sure we lynch scum d1 and then do it again tomorrow

i love this sentiment, but considering who you are voting, it comes across as disingenuous.

If you honestly believe wake is scum, please tell me why?