Mini Normal 2141: The World of Tomorrow [Game over!]

[VP Baltar]

Actually, yeah, I am ok with this. Mavs is definitely trying mischaracterize my play by saying I was late on the scum wagons. Votato and I simulvoted on Gamma, and I expressly said from the start of day 4 that my vote would have been voting Dunn immediately if it wouldn't have put him at L-1. That waiting while stating my intent to lynch Dunn kept the pressure on him while also pressuring hellbrooks....who would have been the next obvious lynch. Not taking any credit for r2r's smart track, but I don't think my play did anything but help.

Last and most important, setup wise it doesn't make sense for there to be THREE investigative roles unless the scum have some kind of super powers we have not seen this game. The fact that they weren't killing power roles left and right makes me think that is not the case (ie, some type of role cop or something to compensate for three investigators).

VOTE: Mavs

gg, you fooled me with the claim

[VP Baltar]

We have seen two mafia strongmen flip, meaning their kills were unblockable. That seems to be their power.

The other two aspects of their roles (day talk and selecting who makes the kill) can both be investigated. It really makes zero sense there would have been a role that if played correctly would have outted more scum.

Like I said, unless the last scum is a role cop -- which we have seen no evidence of, and perhaps some counter evidence of -- 3 investigators for town is super OP.

[mavsfan41]

My case for votato over VP would be that NPOM was lynched with 6 townies if VP is scum. Not sure about that. That would make votato scum. Votato’s progression to NPOM is after he said he was sticking to Atarashi. Then he moves off to vote with me for VP when asserting how he wasn’t moving from Atarashi. But his NPOM vote comes seemingly out of nowhere.

In day 3, midway is lynched. Votato wants midway and Puppy and never really mentions Dunn. Immediately in day 4, votato progresses to Dunn seemingly out of no where again. He never mentions the hammer or a case for the Dunn lynch but applies it when he believes its early in the wagon (seemingly trying to gain town-cred jumping in early) but at that time the vote count was off (posts 2105-2107). Votato leaves it one. Seems like an early bus.

I really don’t know between votato/VP. You’re both voting me and one of you guys is scum and one is town being duped....

VOTE: votato

[VP Baltar]

We have seen two mafia strongmen flip, meaning their kills were unblockable. That seems to be their power.

The other two aspects of their roles (day talk and selecting who makes the kill) can both be investigated. It really makes zero sense there would have been a role that if played correctly would have outted more scum.

Like I said, unless the last scum is a role cop -- which we have seen no evidence of, and perhaps some counter evidence of -- 3 investigators for town is super OP.

Plus a town vig!

[mavsfan41]

@VP: mine is barely an investigation role. I have to rely on scum to voluntarily give me info. I can’t get it from the mod meaning it is never confirmed (I.E. tracker is told by the mod of the night results and Blair is as well). I don’t know why disloyal fruit vendor is even a thing without some sort of complimentary role (but that’s def a thing that is going on and I just don’t understand it). If I was scum who got fruit, why would you even claim that? Scum doesn’t want to give town info whatsoever. Hence if I was scum who received fruit, I would not share that info and asked if I received it, would just say no. Regardless of their answer, it cannot be confirmed nor denied by the mod telling me.

Also, with my votato case atm, VP does push R2R a lot during days 1 & 2. If he were scum knowing R2R would flip town, I’m not quite sure that is a great move knowing the reaction of town upon R2R’s flip.

Votato’s version of scum hunting has been claiming meta. He used that to start Atarashi day 1 and again with midway day 3. Easier to defend. Other than that, he’s been more piggybacking with no pushes.

Votato is scum, final answer (for now at least).

[mavsfan41]

We have seen two mafia strongmen flip, meaning their kills were unblockable. That seems to be their power.

The other two aspects of their roles (day talk and selecting who makes the kill) can both be investigated. It really makes zero sense there would have been a role that if played correctly would have outted more scum.

Like I said, unless the last scum is a role cop -- which we have seen no evidence of, and perhaps some counter evidence of -- 3 investigators for town is super OP.

Plus a town vig!

Oh you mean that one shot N4 vig that at that point would hafta survive:
D1 lynch
N1 NK
D2 lynch
N2 NK
D3 lynch
N3 NK
D4 lynch

In a 13 person game, that’s 7 people killed before he can use it. All things being equal, he has a less than 50% chance of actually using it. Barely a PR at all

[VP Baltar]

I don't disagree that it is a weak role. However, if a town vig did survive to N4, the odds of hitting scum are likely through the roof. My point is that is a lot of town power and I'm not seeing the scum balance. Maybe there is a scum doctor? But even that would open the possibility for another chance to track.

Let's assume you are town, please explain to me whether you see this setup as balanced and why?

[mavsfan41]

@VP: if the claims are to be believed, mafia strongmen are irrelevant as there is no nurse/doctor. That’s a red herring as their kills would go through regardless. Also, tracker is an investigation role, but not quite and susceptible to being unreliable. If it was an investigation role, R2R would have no reason to track hellbooks TWICE. You’re seriously overrating the PR town has. I have a very weak PR that players don’t even believe as AGAIN it can’t really generate a guilty as their is no info provided by the mod and scum must voluntarily provide me information that I cannot mod confirm or deny.

[mavsfan41]

Mav in voting you because this is an auto win fmpov. I don't like your claim, but i agree that vp is scummier. Im somewhat indifferent to who we lynch today. Early on day 1 i pegged you as town and vp as scum so id be very happy if vp is indeed scum. I just have a hard time swallowing that you didn't understand your role

Also, this doesn’t sound scummy? It’s basically “hey, VP is scum but I’m gonna vote mavs anyways for S&Gs, then once I achieve a mislynch, duh, it’s VP”

Again, one of you guys is being seriously duped. If I do get mislynched, upon my flip, whichever one is town is gonna put the game seriously at risk.

@votato: I can’t really ask the mod if there’s a complimentary role to my role. In a game I was in that just ended, there were two neighborizers and a disloyal roleblocker. The disloyal role blocker would prevent scum from being neighborized. So that means they had to work in tandem to get a guilty. That was what I based my role off in terms of being able to ACTUALLY confirm if people had fruit or not. Again, let me put it this way.......... without a “fruit checker” I am not told by the mod whether or not scum is lying.
Tracker R2R - Gamma, where’d you go last night? mod said you visited Nauci.
Traffic analysts Blair - Gamma, can you speak other side the main thread? Mod says you can
Disloyal fruit Vendor Mavs - Dunn, you got any fruit? Dunn (being scum having fruit) no I did not. Okay, cool I have no way of actually confirming or denying that fact, and neither does anyone else. Basically what I’m saying is that scum knows they’re scum. If they’re told they have fruit, it can NOT be a fruit vendor. It has to be a modified version for scum to receive fruit. So scum say no I don’t. I target them, buy their claim, they’re confirmed town to me with no way of proving this. Does that not make sense to people?

Game for reference. I was scum that game btw.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82490

[VP Baltar]

@VP: if the claims are to be believed, mafia strongmen are irrelevant as there is no nurse/doctor. That’s a red herring as their kills would go through regardless.

I think that is part of my point. They are basically vanilla goons and there are three investigate roles? I'm just having a hard time understanding how that is balanced. Do three of them outweigh slightly hampered town power?

I think the argument you're making is that your role is completely useless, and I'm not sure if that's true. Granted, you would have to have conceptualized it differently from the start. It never crossed your mind initially upon reading such a weird role PM? Or you just straight away assumed there was a complimentary role?

[mavsfan41]

I’m not making the claim that it’s completely useless. What I’m saying is the it is extremely unreliable without another role to confirm it or it’s function or even me being informed by the mod that my target received fruit. That was what I believed upon reading my role. Scum has to be able to lie. Them lying without any sort of check makes my role unreliable without another role.

Think of it this way, scum is informed they received fruit. They do not know who it came from or that it can only scum can receive it. However, they do know that fruit is being passed out and it cannot ONLY be targeting town. Say for instance, N1 and N2 I give fruit to two scum. I ask if anyone has fruit. They hedge and one comes forward and the other claims they haven’t received fruit (not knowing what the fruit means). I say oh, that dude who claimed fruit is scum. He’s lynched with essentially an auto clear on the other.

Blair and R2R’s role have mods confirmed night results. Mine doesn’t have that of any kind and therefore is inherently unreliable.

On a side note, upon my claim, I am sure the dead thread was like wtf mavs, you wasted your role. Yep, I suppose so if the claims are true.
The only thing I can say about my role, is that being a disloyal fruit vendor, I would ideally be targeting scum (presumably targeting the people least likely to be NK’ed) and if the tracker is on me, they know I didn’t make the kill and have a night action essentially clearing me? So the tracker gets a free clear of someone. But for that to work, I’d have to be scummy enough for the tracker to target me as the target will likely prioritize players he’s suspicious of since he wants to know who made the kill.

[mavsfan41]

@VP: what you’re telling me is that this doesn’t check out and it’s all an elaborate attempt at a fake claim? I wouldn’t just claimed VT like everyone else. Both you and votato are voting me. That does mean that whoever is town does believe that I’m fake claiming and making it as crazy as possible? Come on.... you’re being used by the other.

[votato]

why would scum not get fruit from an ordinary fruit vendor? are fruit vendors normally loyal?

[VP Baltar]

@VP: what you’re telling me is that this doesn’t check out and it’s all an elaborate attempt at a fake claim? I wouldn’t just claimed VT like everyone else. Both you and votato are voting me. That does mean that whoever is town does believe that I’m fake claiming and making it as crazy as possible? Come on.... you’re being used by the other.

You would have been lynched if you claimed VT probably.

I'll be honest here, I do see a scenario where you are some type of scum fruit vendor and town PRs receive fruit. That might be a weakened investigate role that balances more with the town we know of. I'm just trying to work through whether that makes logical sense with what you did claim, and to figure out how the setup works together because if I can see you as actually telling the truth, then yeah, votato makes complete sense.

[mavsfan41]

why would scum not get fruit from an ordinary fruit vendor? are fruit vendors normally loyal?

So sure, I mishandled my role. Also, at L-1 with intent to hammer, that’s when I claimed. Asking if people had fruit at that point would’ve been next to useless.

So you’re not refuting my claim, you’re more having issue with how I handled it. That’s fair. But saying I’m scum is saying I fake claimed a fruit vendor role, yes? And that’s not what you’re claiming, but still voting me as scum.

[votato]

im saying i have a hard time believing your claim because i have a hard time believing that you could mishandle it. so the simpler solution is that you're scum. That said, I think I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I've suspected VP from day 1, and i dont like that he's still alive given the town leader role he adopted. Puppy should have lived instead. so VOTE: VP

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE: mavs
I'm thinking, but also at work and will be busy this afternoon. I need more time to think this through completely. I still don't know if Mavs role works setup wise, but I'm not 100% I'm right there.

Pedit - The still alive argument doesn't make sense, and definitely one I'd expect scum to make. I've been on everyone's scum list at one point or another because I've been active and pushing hard on people when I think they are scum. I personally think I'm ideal mislynch bait in LyLo, and there is no way I'd be a preferred nightkill over more confirmed towns like puppy or r2r.

[votato]

oh interesting. looking forward very much to your re-evaluation there VP. i think i might know what your next post will say.

[VP Baltar]

oh interesting. looking forward very much to your re-evaluation there VP. i think i might know what your next post will say.

Haha, you think this type of psychological baiting works on me?

[votato]

oh interesting. looking forward very much to your re-evaluation there VP. i think i might know what your next post will say.

Haha, you think this type of psychological baiting works on me?

thats exactly how i thought you'd respond

[VP Baltar]

votato, I'd like you to explain in detail your transition in thought on mavs. You've been bagging on him since his claim about how you don't believe it, so I'd like to hear specifics on this transition. What specifically led you to this benefit of the doubt? I'd also like you to address the questions I raise about the setup and what you see as the balance in that setup.

[ready2rock]

Here's my thought on mavs claim: let's say he used it to "catch dunn" in the way that y'all are proposing (which for the record I do think would be the proper way to play the role and I think I said so at the time). Then we'd be sitting here being like "oh well scum knows who scum are so mavs was just using this role as a gambit to get town cred"

If mavs is scum, I'd like a case of scummy things he's done that goes beyond stuff about his claim or NK stuff

For now my main thought is still votato, but I haven't ruled out mavs and VP either

[ready2rock]

My point being that I think "mavs played the role in a suspiciously convenient way" would be said no matter how he played it

[votato]

r2r what makes you think im scum now? i feel like the entire game our thoughts have been similar

[ready2rock]

Short version is that the Day 3 push of midway felt like scum pushing an easy mislynch, and day 4 felt like a performative bus, especially in the way that you seemed to want to get it over with as fast as possible

Point in your favor is the way that dunn treated you, which mavs brought up earlier