Reckamonic's Ocarina of Time Mafia..OVER! Was Hyrule saved?

[RayFrost]

Chess, either explain yourself or DIAF. Your choice, but choose one. Now.

[chesskid3]

I'm aquatic, there's no fire near me. Case later today, Maybe. Idk. This is my least favorite game :/

[RayFrost]

If you aren't willing to put in the effort for all of this, then replace out. We hardly need a noncontributor.

[Dekes]

Looks like there's no shift activated on this game day.

He said while not contributing to the plan to determine the shift.

Seriously, this shift business is killing this game right now. And if only half the people are working with the plan to self-vote/cross-vote, we only have two choices now:
a) Either the rest of the people vote accordingly and see if Beefster's Role attack got shifted or
b) we screw the plan and start playing mafia and just have to ignore all day action results

@Substrike
How is Chrono's standing within the neighborhood?

@Chrono
How is Substrike's standing within the neighborhood?

Just want to remind Chrono and Substrike again to answer this question.

And since we know neither the person on me nor the person I'm on (DTM) is affected by the shift, I'm gonna go ahead and

UNVOTE: VOTE: Substrike

This could solve the other main topic here. I still think he's scum and if he is indeed, we'd have confirmation the neighborhood has been infiltrated and the neighbors could come forward and out themselves and we could have that out of the way, too.

And now for some regular business:

Seeing as how the game has slowed down, feel like explaining any of your reads good sir?

Seeing as how the game has slowed down, how about you finish that re-read you've been promising to do for a good 40 pages now.

Hate to take chess' side here and present a case on you, but your play has been awful and most likely scum. You are abnormally quick and always the first to answer with a "Wuh wuh, where's your case on me??", whenever being attacked (zwet, chess), but you're lacking in content for at least 50, 60 pages and the only thing that can be called substantial in that time span was a poorly ripped off case on GIS who was the main target at that moment anyway. You promised to examine the other wagons, too, but never delivered.

And Rayfrost, the fact, that you attacked chess in here and called him non-contributor while leaving the godfather of non-contributing alone, is duly noted.

[RayFrost]

I have no interest in the shift. It was a mild note. The activation of the rolling attack came before BE's unvote and selfvote, meaning order of action would indicate that he'd be voteless, yet it clearly displays in the vote count that he has his vote.

Aside from that... I feel that jmj's argument against chess is valid regardless of my actual opinion of jmj. Chess has stated that he has a case but isn't actually providing one. Jmj and zwet = just a fluffposter in general. *shrug* I don't expect much.

To turn this around, why in the fifty six hells did you provide chess with a case that he can just simply sheeple? Seriously. You aren't even voting jmj. You are voting substrike. You have absolutely no reason to provide a case in chess' stead except to try and get chess a bye on the matter, as far as I can tell. You clearly aren't really pushing for a jmj lynch.

[RayFrost]

P.s.: I see no reason to out the neighbors. It's of null value for town if there is scum in the neighbors, since that confirms that they are infiltrated. If there is just one scum with multiple scumteams, it's an even worse idea and actually harms town. Please point out reasons why the neighbors should reveal themselves if substrike flips scum. By reasons I mean things that make it of actual use and benefit to the town to have the neighbors outted to everybody, including scum without previous information.

[jmj3000]

There is a difference dekes. chess hasn't contributed at all this game. His only "contribution" is his claim. This whole game, he has been pushing for different lynches, with nothing to back them up. When asked for cases, he either says any case he posts would be lost in the mess of posts from earlier, or "90 pages is too much" and "case might be coming later"

friggin 93 page game aafoaisdfjoaisdfjoasdfj might be a case coming later.

^The quote so I can't be accused of misrepping. When asked for a case again, he again says "case coming later, maybe". He has even admitted to skimming the game and not reading. So dekes, why are you siding with someone who is so anti-town?

[DTMaster]

Sorry guys I had a midterm, 2 quizzes and an Essay. My resposnes will come soon but while I was reading I had to post this:

1. Rayfrost.

Stop being an idiot for a moment in regards to the shift

. If there was no Shift that means Beefster or Lady LL was lying because when Beefster targeted LL

He did not die

. Also you are not Beefster. He could have missed.

You are putting a massive loop hole between Exlion/LL/Beefster if there was no shift.

It means that we have two players that should have died but didn't

. The 3rd rollout occured after the selfvotes did not reveal anything and showed no vote loss.

This analysis should continue since we know there is a shift already. However, that doesn't mean we stop scum hunting while Beefster analyzes the shift. (I'll post mine when I get to it). There is a distrubing trend in people's posting style recently where a large number of people

are not multi tasking scumhunting and shift analysis via votes

. "points to Substrike as an example".

2. Exlion, considering that you claimed

day cop and you now have a frog that is acting like a snitch reads as super pro-town

. It confirms your day-action, therefore AWESOMESAUCE. Frog-snitch person is very pro-town because there would be no scum motivation to

make your actions confirmable publically

.

[Dekes]

@Rayfrost
You give jmj and zwet a pass, because they are fluffposter in general? So it's usual, that jmj comes out whenever being attacked but not to scumhunt and hence he's town or at least unattackable? Okay.

And no, I'm not pushing for a jmj-lynch now, because town is still too invovled in the neighborhood issue and I want that resolved first.

It's of no value if neighborhood know that they've been infiltrated? Care to explain that?
And if there should be two scum factions why would one get the chance to infiltrate the neighborhood and the other doesn't? That'd be a heavy imbalance if one scum team would know five people as town and the other wouldn't. But that's speculation that's useless know that we haven't seen a neighbor flip scum.

Pedit:
I was mainly siding against you, jmj. You've been re-reading for sixty pages now, you have not expressed opinions towards the shift situation, the neighborhood stuff or given valid suspicions with solid reasoning and you've only asked people who attacked you for a case.

I agree that chess is a noisemaker, though. But since his claim is still confirmable there's no way for me to believe he's scum at the moment.

[RayFrost]

DTM: My interest in the shift is peripheral. I see little way for me to directly help (the self voting thing seems ridiculous), and I feel that trying to come up with ways would be a distraction, so I don't get involved. Gimme a direction, and I'll be more than heppy to get involved, kthx.

Dekes:

#1 Please read what I said again. I'm on chess about providing a case that he's promised repeatedly. I'm not bothering with the regular fluff posters because I feel there's more important things. Like lynching scum. The fluff posters are unlikely to do anything aside from posting fluff, and they are vigbait to me, not people that a lynch should be wasted on.

#2 I don't see a heavy involvement in the neighbor issue in comparison to the shift issue. Aside frm that, why would you prolong lynching someone you think is scum for such a flimsy reason in the first place?

#3 ... that's not what I said.

This could solve the other main topic here. I still think he's scum and if he is indeed, we'd have confirmation the neighborhood has been infiltrated and

the neighbors could come forward and out themselves

and we could have that out of the way, too.

I see no reason to out the neighbors.

It's of null value for town if there is scum in the neighbors, since that confirms that they are infiltrated. If there is just one scum with multiple scumteams, it's an even worse idea and actually harms town. Please point out reasons why the neighbors should reveal themselves if substrike flips scum.

Aside from that, it'd hardly be imbalanced if there were different power spreads, especially since the scum would not know that the other team lacks an informant, etc. Still, agreed that it's speculation.

[Kdub]

UNVOTE:

Since we have established that there is no shift today, the next order of business is to figure out what's going on with Exilon/LL. Since Ex has already claimed, I think he should investigate one of the masons and reveal his result. If he gets an innocent, the masons are cleared and we know there was a shift yesterday that messed up his results. There is a slight possibility that Ex could be scum in this scenario, but there's not really a good reason for him to do so since the whole point of him fakeclaiming cop in the first place would be to get LL lynched, and an innocent result would clear LL regardless. If he gets a guilty, then we've narrowed today's lynch down to him or the masons.

[DTMaster]

1. To everyone complaining about the shift analysis: The shift though is vital to figure out unlike the flavour debate. This affects all day roles. Role information is vital as scum hunting is. But I haven't given up on actual scum hunting. People who call out that the shift analysis is distracting without actually doing anything (you lead by example people) should shoot themselves in the foot for saying those things.

People who complain about the shift and don't scum hunt while the analysis read as scum trying to stall rather then town making use of the day. I'm tired of reading complaints. (I'm going to analyze you people so rawr.)

@Mothrax
Here

You ignored my counter to your argument from earlier in your post. Here it is.

@Moth
I missed your post lolz. Oopsies. Anyways:

a. Yes there is scum but just because you say it's a "better probability" isn't accurate. Assuming 1-2 scum in the neighbor group in the pool of 6, there would be 2-4 outside the pool which if this was a full pool: 2-4/22 players. This is assuming 1 scum team, average number of scum in a large theme. Technically it's easier to find scum in 1/3 chance (under the condition of there is 2 scum in the neighbours) then 2/11 (in a pool of non neighbours).

It's probably not exactly like that but I believe these are the chances if you shoot in the dark.

b. We still need to deal with the neighbours. Whether now, or later, ignoring potential scum is bad. We should multi attack/pressure so we catch them. That involves some time dealing with the neighbours.

c. Either way, both A and B which you are worried about in tunneling into your group is solved by scum hunting normally. Your fussiness is odd since there are far stronger cases on Substrike (neighbour) without the neighbour argument.

d. As well how can you judge which scum is more dangerous then the other? Especially since there is a high chance of fake claims. Why should we believe that a neighbour scum is actually a sleeper role. That seems odd that you can judge scum's role power based on what group they belong in, rather then simply attacking players since they are scum. All scum, regardless of what role needs to die. We judge scum roles when the situation arises (i.e. multi factions where we leash one person to be our night vig. This has been done with SKs many a time, or in Jungle Mafia the Werewolf helped the town take down the mafia group and got lynched) but not when we're hunting for them

You attack Nikanor for his neighbourhood argument: except

you don't address how one person determines the pro-town neighbour to the fake scum player

, except to say that I was wrong to attack you since you assumed there is a large block of "protown" players here and Nikanor's absoluteness is wrong. You don't explain why (I did since the element of PRs come to play, hence why your comment of "bigger scum" still reads as a slip in the mindset and my argument that you're juding people based on PR levels here, rather then scumminess. Hence scum mindset)

The mindset that you assume the towniness, and that you don't attack them outside does not mean you tunnel within the group. You scum hunt multiple people, you don't stop. Nor do you ignore people who could be scum. You're missing the main point of Chrono/Substrike that Nikanor is pointing out. By analyzing why they are attacking X person you are using normal scum hunting to read motives behind it. Thus you can determine if they are town/scum based on their reasoning. That element remains, but the motives for why X wants Y dead is left to be interpeted.

Thus when you complain about Nikanor's argument and tunnel on him brings suspicion on you because it reads as a defensive red flag.

There's a lot of assumptions you're making, none of which can be proven true unless you are scum.

If you consider what the shift analysis does:

It brings credit to Exlion's claim which normally would have devolved into an LL vs Exlion fight due to conflicting role claims. Now both scenerios of PGO LL and Day cop Exlion is proven to be possible.

2. ABR: I don't understand what claiming targets would do in scum hunting. The targets could be both town/scum players (hence my original analysis that I asked the sages to think about). It's more balanced to have a mix link that hurts town in exchange for powers with a dash of target scum with increasing town powers.

3. Rayfrost: If you consider that Fate/JaLBoC flipped two RBing type roles, they had a high disabling team (at least between the two players themselves) which is super powerful in night actions. (comment about PRs)

4. Deke's: the rolling attack was claimed by Beefster when he full claimed. Do an Iso search and you'll find it.

5.Ythan: There is a cavat though in regards to assuming Chess town vs scum. It's called risk management. In a game, I believe one of the strongest role in the game is the Vanillia townie because the person relies on scumhunting over role abilities. Thus this person is the most useful player because there is more motivation to keep up in cases/etc, and can easily over power any scum PR team. In a pure statistical gain, it's more benifical to town that scum hunt to have Chess use his ability over lynching him outright.

6. Chrono I would like you to address my comment about Substrike to confirm he is scumhunting both in QT that I don't see out here.

7. Rayfrost: Um.. I want to answer for Dekes because it reads as you're missing a line or something but I'll let him answer. But your argument is poor since why aren't you attacking me for attacking multiple people? So far I called out Moth/Dekes/Substrike/etc.

Edit: Nevermind: Dekes provided a poor answer since he's not taking a strong enough scum-hunting stance on Jmj. When I read it originally I read it as: Jmj reads as scum and Dekes agreed with chess. Now that Dekes judges that Jmj isn't the correct lynch atm, this reads as poor scum hunting. Using the neighbour hood excuse is poor since you lead by example and fix the problem by doing something that takes people away from it. Hence I didn't originally read it as providing chess a case, (even though Dekes stated it), but Dekes scumhunting on his own. The intent was there, the value of one player over another in terms of scumhunting throws it off.

8. Rayfrost: I'm doing something about it. It's called both shift vote and scumhunting. Isn't that enough for you or do I need to be abrasive and tell you that we can still scum hunt without a vote. I don't see why we can't wait for Beefster's analysis (since this impacts Exlion's play directly) and scum hunt people at the same time. There are people actively trying to do something right now. Also speaking of which

9.

Aikage please vote. Your vote appears to count in the not-voting section.

If you are using your non-voting status to not vote anyone, you're being ridiclious here.

I'm off to class so Dekes my post on you (among other people) will be later today.

[Dekes]

Dekes:

#1 Please read what I said again. I'm on chess about providing a case that he's promised repeatedly. I'm not bothering with the regular fluff posters because I feel there's more important things. Like lynching scum. The fluff posters are unlikely to do anything aside from posting fluff, and they are vigbait to me, not people that a lynch should be wasted on.

#2 I don't see a heavy involvement in the neighbor issue in comparison to the shift issue. Aside frm that, why would you prolong lynching someone you think is scum for such a flimsy reason in the first place?

#1
But fluffposters can be scum as well. I would name you an ongoing game...but I can't. And it wasn't really fluff like some of Bunny's, Chrono's and Aikage's statements that look like they saysomething when they actually don't. But in jmj's case he's only either "I'm rereading" or "Where's your case on me?". So he deliberately stays away when no one's talking about him and pops up when he needs to.
Okay, in hindsight it may have been better if I had chess present his "case" first, true. But I had jmj on my radar for a while now and his last episode just was the last straw that broke the camel's back.

#2
Because I think Substrike is scum, too. And his death would give us more info than jmj's. I don't see that as a flimsy reason at all.

#3
Point conceded. I read your second sentence wrong where I thought you'd said that it would be of no value for the neighborhood if they knew whether there was scum in their group or not.

Pedit: Not time for that post now.

[DTMaster]

DUDE PEOPLE

MISS. I get to try again!

Maybe there

is

no shift.

Rolling Attack: Lady Lambdadelta's Wagon

Nope. Never mind that.

There is, in fact, a shift. Good to know.

Are people RETARDED AND DON'T READ. BEEFSTER TARGETED THE CLAIMED PGO AND DID NOT DIE. IF YOU GO BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POST

nameloc1986 (3): "Fluffy", "Bridget", A Flying Pot
Substrike22 (2): ABR, Hinduragi
Blooderection (1): Le Cupcake
Dekes (1): DTMaster
Exilon (1): Lady Lambdadelta
Lady Lambdadelta (1): Blooderection
Mothrax (1): Nikanor

The above is the accurate vote count before Beefster announced his roll out attack. Therefore one of these wagons should have - votes. But it doesn't.

BUT BLOODERECTION DID NOT LOSE HIS VOTE. STOP BEING RETARDED PEOPLE.

[DTMaster]

If there was no shift and Beefster's power doesn't count towards PGO requirements even, BE HAS HIS VOTE. STOP THIS NONSENSE PEOPLE AND START USING YOUR BRAIN.

[jmj3000]

If what I am thinking about shifts is correct, beefster could declare he is targetting LLD, but the shift would cause him to actually target someone else. Now, if he had targeted someone else, and the shift had caused him to target LLD, then I can see beefster dying. I think the mod uses the declared target to figure out where to start the count for the shift. I don't see if there was any shift et, we will wait for beefster to figure out if he hit a valid target.

[Bunnylover]

o.o wtf is going on.
Why are people saying their is no shift?
Beefster hasn't hit anyone.
THAT MEANS THEIR IS A SHIFT!!!!!!
Wtf is wrong with you people <_<.
Beefster powers knocks the players votes from a wagon. No one has lost their vote. That means either we missed a double voter, or the roll attacked failed to hit a wagon.

[Reckamonic]

Hey guys...if any of your friends wanna replace in for ZONEACE...let us know. We're having trouble finding a replacement and could really use some help.

[jmj3000]

Hey guys...if any of your friends wanna replace in for ZONEACE...let us know. We're having trouble finding a replacement and could really use some help.

Change your sig >.>

[chesskid3]

Replace him with the next role that dies who doesn't know anyone else's roles.

Also, my case was based on a back and forth around page 60 i think that struck me as incredibly scummy. Since I don't remember the page, and I reallllllly don't want to do an ISO, it hasn't happened yet :/

[chesskid3]

V/LA until Sunday

[Le Cupcake]

Apparently I was prodded 5 days ago...

I am quite lost with the last few pages. Since when did shifts affect votes?

[Kdub]

Wait, if there is a shift, shouldn't DTM's vote on Dekes (-13 from Reckamonic) have been removed in the last VC?

We need Beefster to come and clarify what happened.

[Ythan]

I think Aikage might be an alt. Possibly of the mods.

[Ythan]

2. Exlion, considering that you claimed

day cop and you now have a frog that is acting like a snitch reads as super pro-town

. It confirms your day-action, therefore AWESOMESAUCE. Frog-snitch person is very pro-town because there would be no scum motivation to

make your actions confirmable publically

.

I missed where we got any explanation of the frog other than from Exilon himself.