Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[Save The Dragons]

here's a list of usernames in this game that start with S

Save the Dragons
Sword of Ducks

infer what you will

same energy

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It’s not a lurker push

Norwegian brought up that the slot is a lurker

as an aside

catboi then picked up on it and now it’s being wrongly framed as a lurker push

I will rephrase the case when I get to the computer, so it’s abundantly clear and no one can use this “lurker push” reasoning as an excuse to stay off the wagon

[NorwegianboyEE]

Keeper are you trying to be as negative and annoying as possible?

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm gonna pull from the old FL handbook, and go...I'm gonna be a Day 3 IC.

[Sword of Ducks]

here's a list of usernames in this game that start with S

Save the Dragons
Sword of Ducks

infer what you will

same energy

that is pretty true, really

[Flavor Leaf]

Ducky, would you come back to the Catboi wagon?

[Flavor Leaf]

Ducky, would you come back to the Catboi wagon?

WELLDONE/CATBOI: Look, they're trying to manipulate Sword of Ducks!

[Sword of Ducks]

Ducky, would you come back to the Catboi wagon?

WELLDONE/CATBOI: Look, they're trying to manipulate Sword of Ducks!

Very funny.

[Menalque]

I could do FL if that’s what you’re getting at cb

I don't know if I'm going to get support for it on day 1, I tend to play by picking off the minnows before going for the big fish but I feel actually really damn good about my townreads this game which is pretty crazy for day 1, which makes me think my POE is good.

I can do anyone except Norwee in your SR section, other than that I like your reads bar Wallflower who is the towniest slot in the game and TB who I’m still not sure on after the shitfest the other day, wanna see how the replacement goes

Don’t agree with you 100% but we’re close enough that I’m pretty sure you’re town given how much and badly you’ve been pushed thus far, and how much I think scum would want you dead

Plus I’m trusting myself to do a hard re-eval to win the game on N4 if you are scum

[Flavor Leaf]

It's so much better play for scum to not try to fade Catboi but then kill him if they wanted to get rid of him.

He isn't strong at casing, albeit it is day 1, dont know them late.

[catboi]

let's just try our luck with the beloved princess and see what crazy stuff happens over night.

VOTE: Mastina

Also, again, ridiculously sketchy, coming right after Wallflower expressed doubt on mastina in 2180 and Toogeloo had expressed a willingness to vote momentum. It looks like potentially he's hoping to seize on the momentum to eliminate a beloved princess and get an advantage off that

I really don't like this either but I'm again unsure how scummy it is. Flavor's now under a bit of pressure and if Mastina were to get eliminated (I don't think it happens this turn) and is town then I don't think Flavor survives D2.

I actually think it's one of the scummiest things he's done. You don't know about this since you're new, but Flavor Leaf is a player who likes to brag about talking his way out of hard guilties as scum on multiple occasions. He also tried to get a mason voted out in a game, simply as a challenge to himself to say he did it. Attempting to push through something as obviously antitown as a Day 1 Beloved Princess elim and then talk his way out of it is something he'd absolutely relish doing. I think the way he's going about it is scummy.

Explain the way I'm going about it.

Okay, let's break it down.

Part 1: Initial Handling of the Claim

Never fails for Mastina to call me scum when I’m town.

I don’t believe there’s ever been a time she hasn’t called me scum, except when I was scum against their town.

Mastina also trying really hard to make ToogelooScum a thing

The claim means it’s not really worth pushing Mastina today, but there’s some icky stuff there.

Opens up, there's an initial discredit of mastina's scumread with the "oh she always does this", trying to put it peoples minds she's biased and not to be trusted. The follow through is the "sensible" mechanical opinion - not worth it! After all, it's risky, and town's not going to take that chance early, right. But it pivots toward saying her catchup is bad.

Part 2: Building the Scumread on mastina

Like to me, Mastina’s catch up looks like damage control.

damage control for what

Probably a Catboi partner

Another reason I’m leaning a Catboi-Mastina is because Mastina knew I’d respond to that ridiculous slip reasoning, and now my focus is going towards her rather than Catboi which splits the vote if I push further + her claim is defense.

Part of me wants to try to go for the Beloved Princess, and then just have a double night before scum get any info, and then just have a double night.

but might be biased. I think it's possible Mastina comes from a town perspective, but i think all their scum reads and reasons were super weak, but idk if theyre that weak if scum, but targeting 2 on catboi wagon, then 1 in the catboi cover crew is also heebie jeebie worthy.

+ Beloved Princess claim wifom.

So that's where I'm at, would prefer Catboi, but will go Mastina.

Part of me wants to try to go for the Beloved Princess, and then just have a double night before scum get any info, and then just have a double night.

Yeah this does not read like something posted for here unless I'm missing something? Why would say in advance you "might" try and claim something?

well, i would say in advance that I might try and claim something, but yeah, not what I was saying here.

Really just in addition to thinking Mastina is a strong candidate for a Catboi partner, the Beloved Princess claim is just something I dont really wanna deal with/think it could be scum motivated.

my cases against scumMastina are that her reasons for scum reading people have no meat on the bone, but said matter of factly, and i think mastina just would have better reasons if she was scum. Not a strong reason especially if it was done by Mastina to position well and defend Catboi indirectly by pushing 2 of the ones on the Catboi wagon/then offering up a butterchurn which can get people from both sides of the Catboi debate onto butterchurn.

Here, he turns to attacking mastina, primarily under the suggestion

that she is my partner

. This is important because the majority of the argument he is making for mastina-scum is

based on a pre-flip association

. It relies entirely on tying her to me being scum. The case falls apart if I'm not scum. He has little in the way of reasons to scumread mastina on her own independently of me. The best argument he has is "mastina's scum reads and reasons are "weak", which is hardly saying anything at all.

He's also planting the seeds for going for a Beloved Princess Day 1 elim, going about it in a "just kidding, unless..." sort of way - he suggests it but isn't really advocating for it.

Part 3: Hey Maybe Eliminating a Beloved Princess Isn't So Bad

Yeah, I read that as him saying that Day 1 could actually be the most beneficial time to eliminate a Beloved Princess, because there are the maximum amount of town role actions available. So, I guess the risk is mitigated if she is a town Beloved Princess, and there's also a good chance of her just being scum. I'm not really sure how accurate that is, but I did have a thought along those lines as well.

there's also little to no other claims out there, so scum can't PR snipe well, so it's just mowing down people.

Scum can also choose not to kill because they only to kill 2 times in each 3 phases.

On this, do we reckon all scum teams kill tonight? I'd initially expect so since it's D1 and the game is still big enough that you can probably eliminate someone as scum and get away with it without people making obvious associatives. But then it obviously gets trickier further down the line once role player are perhaps revealed - if you don't have a kill, you risk them being able to live another day.

i agree. going Mastina, if they are actually town BP, opens up a lot of bloodshed, but it's more of a matter of does the bloodshed matter. scum can hit possible scum anyways. And if Mastina is scum, they're just scum.

The double night is always gonna feel drastic, though, but there's also the possibility that scum kill Mastina if she's on the right track ever, but not looking likely based on her weak reasonings, so either way.

Catboi still my preferred.

Now FL starts making arguments for why it's maybe actually okay to elim the beloved princess even if she's town, planting the seeds for other people to agree with him. He makes sure to emphasize that I am his

preferred

elimination, he's not pushing for mastina, but if anyone wants to go that way he can do it. It's trying to make the idea of eliminating the beloved princess palatable to people by making mechanical arguments about how it might not be totally anti-town.

Part 4: Pivot to a New Narrative

Sword of Ducks
Save The Dragons
Tracer Bullet
MonkeyMan576
Bnuuy

Malcolm
WallFlower
Menalque
Norwegian
Cat Scratch Fever

Toogeloo
MegaZumarill
Enchant
Butterchurn
Tictac
Klick

The Keeper

Well Done
Nashville Dreams

Mastina
cassowary

catboi

Well Done says I'm not looking for scum, but I believe I have the most layered reads out of anyone in this game, and have been looking for scum MORE than the majority of players, frankly because I got way too invested like always.

And even if I were scum, why wouldn't I be looking for scum?

Well Done/Mastina team, Catboi/Cassowarry. Nashville probably town then, and then the rest are somewhere in my town reads.

Flavor Leaf calls anybody who pushes him scum.

So you, Dunnstral, used this as a reasoning to push me?

Without realizing that this has only happened once this game, with Mastina, a player that essentially calls me scum in any game we've played together besides when I actually was scum that one time, and out of everything, you were going with this + controlling/manipulative?

Flavor is unlikely to be eliminated D1 I'd say and it very much puts Well Done in the spotlight.

I don't think they pushed me with the intent to fade me, not that they wouldnt if it was possible.

I feel like at the least I've hit a scum or two, but what really makes me ping with Well Done is that this happened after I had settled a bit with Catboi, and started looking into Mastina as an option.

I'm not even sure if they're scum, parts of me think they're town.

But I keep going back to the timing of it happening right after I started suspicion on Mastina, which is why I believe it was on their mind that I was pushing those that scum read me.

Well Done/Mastina scum team.

Suddenly, with Well Done coming in to attack Flavor Leaf, he switches to calling mastina scum with

them

instead, based on the incredibly thin reasoning that the timing of well done's push must mean they are paired. I don't really believe scum coordinate in this manner most of the time and it feels like he's just reaching for excuses to tie them together.

Again you have to look at what Flavor is actually saying here -

all his cases are preflips

. He's drawing associations between people and calling them scum for it but there's really no reasoning behind it, it's entirely predicated on how there's

totally

a connection. Doesn't explain why their actions on their own are scum motivated, other than

the fact that they're pushing him

. I think this is partly because he wanted to discredit Well Done's attack on him, partly because he wanted to keep mastina in his scum pool despite the cat/astina narrative (or "gamefic" if you will) not gaining any traction. It's still lacking in

actual reasons

for mastina-scum.

Part 5: Hey Let's Go For it!

The claim means it’s not really worth pushing Mastina today, but there’s some icky stuff there.

It seems like the claim protects her from people ever wanting to push her, correct? Even past the first Day. In later Days a Beloved Princess death may be even more harmful.

Like to me, Mastina’s catch up looks like damage control.

I kind of agree, but I wasn't sure if I was reacting to what seems like an ill-founded suspicion on me. I was also hesitant because it seems like a few players have found her to be townie so far. I'm especially curious about catboi's read.

So that's where I'm at, would prefer Catboi, but will go Mastina.

On second thought, i'm not sure i trust Mastina because last game with scum!Mastina went like this:

Mastina: I'm going to town and scumread people for their one-liner RVS posts and make a big reads list.
Mastina: Norwee is top town.
*Dips from game for a long time*
Mastina: Cephrir is scum for a vague reason. I'm going to harp on this vague scumread for the rest of the game.

This game:

Mastina: I'm going to town and scumread people for their one-liner RVS posts and make a big reads list.
Mastina: Norwee is top town.
*Dips from game for a long time*
Mastina: Butterchurn is scum for a vague reason. I'm going to harp on this vague scumread for the rest of the game.

I JUST DON'T TRUST IT ANYMORE.

I'm still 100% in support of day 1 eliming the Beloved Princess. Lowest risk for what could possibly also be scum, PRs are still hidden, scum would be firing blindly, possibly getting a few cross kills.

Is the Malefactor essentially just a 5th scum member for both teams with no ability to communicate with them? Or are they more akin to a Serial Killer? I didn't see anything on the wiki about a Malefactor, but their win con suggests they are aligned with either/both scum factions but don't get a kill of their own. I'd assume in this setup, they are bulletproof. Do they win even if dead as long as town loses?

I meant over night as in I wake up tomorrow morning and see what the response is, not game night, but yeah, that too.[/quote]

VOTE: Nashville Dreams

I'm all caught up, although admittedly I kind of skimmed the last bits of the Well Done and Flavor argument since i don't think I got anything out of that. I still think the Nashville Dreams case is better than anything those two are slinging at each other though.

I'm tentatively townleaning Flavor -- I'm vibing some of his main scumreads and coming around to scum!catboi, whose 1498 pinged me and because his weird townread on mastina on page 72.

mastina is also scummy -- I wasn't feeling her vague butterchurn push or the momo PT thing.

I also find Flavor pretty manipulative as town in general, so I'm not sure the points made against him are AI.

I also think Klick could be scum -- his posts pinged me as pocket-y, like when he was talking to Mena about filler stuff on page 61 instead of taking the time to work with Mena on reads.

Wouldn’t it be funny if Mastina’s huge explanation of their usage of an system they cannot really describe in full because of hod complex it is, is just an fancy way of saying: "gut check"

I mean gut is always used in even the most logical of systems since no system has a "100% guaranteed" tell that will

always

indicate an alignment. If a tell is 75-25, you still have to use gut to determine if it's the 75 or the 25. Statistically speaking, it'll usually be the 75 because it wouldn't be 75-25 if the 75 wasn't more common than the 25, but statistically speaking, it still can be the 25 because it wouldn't be 75-25 if there wasn't a 25.

How do you have a scum lean on a slot that never even picked up their role PM?

momo will be replaced if they fail to pick up their role PM by tomorrow morning.

Momo didn't skip out on the game because they didn't like their role PM. They didn't even open it.

While this seems like a fair argument initially, it falls apart when you realize one simple fact.

You don't need to look at your

role PM

to know that you have drawn scum.

You can just

look at your private topics

and tell that you have drawn scum.

Tell me: how can Cephrir differentiate between "momo has not viewed the PM or the scum PT at all", and, "momo did not view the PM, viewed the scum PT, but just didn't post in the scum PT"?

The two are entirely inseparable to him. But the difference between the former and the latter is a difference in likely alignment for the slot.

And since momo flakes more often as scum and momo need not read his role PM to learn that he is scum, trying to clear yourself from momo having not read the role PM doesn't actually work. In fact, it's the opposite; it makes the slot

more

likely to be scum--not less.

nvm about my previous tr on mastina

Context is key here. There's been a few players who have expressed suspicion of mastina through the game, he's been building the narrative of mastina-scum the whole day, trying to get people on board with the idea. Suddenly you have Toogeloo, CSF, and Wallflower all expressing suspicion of mastina within a short period.

let's just try our luck with the beloved princess and see what crazy stuff happens over night.

VOTE: Mastina

Best Case Scenario it's a Scum Beloved Princess.

Flavor, did you see the 1705 about Nashville Dreams?

Yeah, I saw it.

Nashville could be scum, they're in my Pink tier, but part of me thinks they could just be town not in the game fully. I likely wont be one of the main ones pushing Nashville myself, but I do town read most of the people pushing them.

Idk. I feel like I'd be able to read them with a much higher certainty a little bit later in the game, and it's holding me back from wanting to go there.

I get the case, I just don't know if it makes them scum, is where I'm at.

let's just try our luck with the beloved princess and see what crazy stuff happens over night.

VOTE: Mastina

FL senses that there might be some

momentum

there, so he switches his vote there to see if he can get others to follow. He doesn't want it to look like he's hardshoving the mastina elim through - then he'd take the fall for it the next day. He wants it to look like an idea many people are on board with, so he can say they're equally to blame, even though he's the one who has been subtly trying to make the idea popular in the first place.

[Flavor Leaf]

if I were scum, I'd have gotten like 2-3 claims to have happened from town. And while I was telling Bnuuy to claim, I actively moved away before they did when I saw they didn't need to.

I've been on Catboi all game, which is not something I do as scum.

[Menalque]

Anyway, lemme know where you wanna vote and I’ll sheep you @catboi

You’re leading any charges until I get some energy back tho, I poured a lot of energy in and even tho I’m feeling better from the Covid I just don’t have the WIM for any big 1v1s or pushing stuff through rn

[Menalque]

I've been on Catboi all game, which is not something I do as scum.

You’ll do anything as scum because you have absolute faith in your ability to talk your way out of any situation lol

[Menalque]

If memory serves correctly, an FL claiming he doesn’t do certain things as scum is an FL who’s much more likely to be scum

[Flavor Leaf]

Listen.

I'm a Monk. If I'm scum, I have to be Mafia.

You're pushing the reason that TownMe wanted Mastina and acting like it's ScumMe.

I'm not trying to hide that I was trying to build towards a Mastina wagon.

That's what I do. I rally.

I saw the opportunity and I took it.

[Flavor Leaf]

If memory serves correctly, an FL claiming he doesn’t do certain things as scum is an FL who’s much more likely to be scum

i do this as both alignments. idk where you got it's much more likely.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL senses that there might be some momentum there, so he switches his vote there to see if he can get others to follow. He doesn't want it to look like he's hardshoving the mastina elim through - then he'd take the fall for it the next day. He wants it to look like an idea many people are on board with, so he can say they're equally to blame, even though he's the one who has been subtly trying to make the idea popular in the first place.

Anyone who has eyes can see that if Mastina was the one pushed through, it was because of me.

[catboi]

I could do FL if that’s what you’re getting at cb

I don't know if I'm going to get support for it on day 1, I tend to play by picking off the minnows before going for the big fish but I feel actually really damn good about my townreads this game which is pretty crazy for day 1, which makes me think my POE is good.

I can do anyone except Norwee in your SR section, other than that I like your reads bar Wallflower who is the towniest slot in the game and TB who I’m still not sure on after the shitfest the other day, wanna see how the replacement goes

Don’t agree with you 100% but we’re close enough that I’m pretty sure you’re town given how much and badly you’ve been pushed thus far, and how much I think scum would want you dead

I still have issues with Wallflower but it's not worth getting into right now and I recognize that I am exceptionally biased there (also, Sword of Ducks is the towniest slot in the game, bar none). I empathize completely on TB and recognize that whatever he was doing was extremely screwy and so hard to read alignment into + the whole shenanigans from PYP makes reading into the replace-out dicey, but having the slot as a townlean is fine for now and hopefully the eventual replacement makes it easier.

Plus I’m trusting myself to do a hard re-eval to win the game on N4 if you are scum

Lol if I'm not nightkilled before that point something has gone terribly wrong

[Flavor Leaf]

Again you have to look at what Flavor is actually saying here - all his cases are preflips. He's drawing associations between people and calling them scum for it but there's really no reasoning behind it, it's entirely predicated on how there's totally a connection. Doesn't explain why their actions on their own are scum motivated, other than the fact that they're pushing him. I think this is partly because he wanted to discredit Well Done's attack on him, partly because he wanted to keep mastina in his scum pool despite the cat/astina narrative (or "gamefic" if you will) not gaining any traction. It's still lacking in actual reasons for mastina-scum.

Sigh.

Idk.

I always preflip.

I dont know if I can handle this type of thing anymore.

People just continuously can't look past surface level stuff, and I really hate Day 1's.

[Flavor Leaf]

Catboi's entire case is IioA, but people gonna follow that and think he's town because of it.

[catboi]

let's just try our luck with the beloved princess and see what crazy stuff happens over night.

VOTE: Mastina

Also, again, ridiculously sketchy, coming right after Wallflower expressed doubt on mastina in 2180 and Toogeloo had expressed a willingness to vote momentum. It looks like potentially he's hoping to seize on the momentum to eliminate a beloved princess and get an advantage off that

I really don't like this either but I'm again unsure how scummy it is. Flavor's now under a bit of pressure and if Mastina were to get eliminated (I don't think it happens this turn) and is town then I don't think Flavor survives D2.

I actually think it's one of the scummiest things he's done. You don't know about this since you're new, but Flavor Leaf is a player who likes to brag about talking his way out of hard guilties as scum on multiple occasions. He also tried to get a mason voted out in a game, simply as a challenge to himself to say he did it. Attempting to push through something as obviously antitown as a Day 1 Beloved Princess elim and then talk his way out of it is something he'd absolutely relish doing. I think the way he's going about it is scummy.

Explain the way I'm going about it.

Noting the disappearance of Catboi even though they posted right after this.

lol dude trying to string me up for not replying within 30 minutes when I have to actually comb through and assemble your posts to show it is some top tier bullshit

[Flavor Leaf]

let's just try our luck with the beloved princess and see what crazy stuff happens over night.

VOTE: Mastina

Also, again, ridiculously sketchy, coming right after Wallflower expressed doubt on mastina in 2180 and Toogeloo had expressed a willingness to vote momentum. It looks like potentially he's hoping to seize on the momentum to eliminate a beloved princess and get an advantage off that

I really don't like this either but I'm again unsure how scummy it is. Flavor's now under a bit of pressure and if Mastina were to get eliminated (I don't think it happens this turn) and is town then I don't think Flavor survives D2.

I actually think it's one of the scummiest things he's done. You don't know about this since you're new, but Flavor Leaf is a player who likes to brag about talking his way out of hard guilties as scum on multiple occasions. He also tried to get a mason voted out in a game, simply as a challenge to himself to say he did it. Attempting to push through something as obviously antitown as a Day 1 Beloved Princess elim and then talk his way out of it is something he'd absolutely relish doing. I think the way he's going about it is scummy.

Explain the way I'm going about it.

Noting the disappearance of Catboi even though they posted right after this.

lol dude trying to string me up for not replying within 30 minutes when I have to actually comb through and assemble your posts to show it is some top tier bullshit

Seriously fuck off.

How the fuck was I supposed to know that you were fucking going for 30 minutes?

[Flavor Leaf]

Nothing but shade.

[catboi]

Anyway, lemme know where you wanna vote and I’ll sheep you @catboi

You’re leading any charges until I get some energy back tho, I poured a lot of energy in and even tho I’m feeling better from the Covid I just don’t have the WIM for any big 1v1s or pushing stuff through rn

tictac or enchant seem like the freeest sum based on how little impact they've had + how much people have ignored them but I'll see what my other TRs are on board with