Mini 821 - A Death in the Family - Game Over


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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:32 pm

Post by arelian »

Flava: my intent was to create pressure so that Zilla would talk. I didn't go along with the plan for no reason. You however seemed to take a wild gamble with the hammer, and even though it provided some info (two confirmed townies) we have barely any information about the relationships between the confirmed townies and the other players because of that hammer. If you didn't cut discussion, we could have had a lot more to go off of with that information.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:54 am

Post by Juls »

Francis 22 wrote:Do you think Flava is stupid or scummy?
Don't get me wrong. What he did is very scummy and likely deserves to be lynched. But I also have to ask myself "why would scum do that and draw so much attention to himself?" And the answer I get back is that if he is town, that was stupid...if he is scum, that was stupid. So we have established his stupidity and now we have to determine if he is scum. He has a huge strike against him at this point.
Sho 24 wrote:I believe that the odds the hammerer is scum is somewhat high, but could have been a stupid townie just following a plan. I personally think that Francis should explain the "this is not a random vote thing"
I do agree with this. It needs to be explained. I have played with Zilla and of all the people to choose to "pressure", Zilla would not be one I would see cracking under it. But I haven't played with any of the rest of you before.

A few questions...
Francis: Why did you choose Zilla to pressure? Have you played with Zilla before in the past?
Flava Flave: Please explain your vote to hammer. You sling mud at arelian but don't answer for your own actions.
Santos: Thoughts on yesterday other than it was "fast"?
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:00 am

Post by Flava Flave »

Sho Minamimoto wrote: I also think that the odds at least one scum is on the wagon is well over 70%. (Arbitrary number, don't ask.)
The odds of both? Meh...significantly lower.
I'd put the odds of one scum much higher than that. 85% maybe. Both scum on it, you're right. Pretty damn low.
Sho Minamimoto wrote: I believe that the odds the hammerer is scum is somewhat high, but could have been a stupid townie just following a plan. I personally think that Francis should explain the "this is not a random vote thing" more so than Flava being as stupid as the person he is pretending to be.
What was stupid about the lynch? We have loads of info just on the first page. And no Walls O Text to get it.
arelian wrote:Flava: my intent was to create pressure so that Zilla would talk. I didn't go along with the plan for no reason. You however seemed to take a wild gamble with the hammer, and even though it provided some info (two confirmed townies) we have barely any information about the relationships between the confirmed townies and the other players because of that hammer. If you didn't cut discussion, we could have had a lot more to go off of with that information.
Yeah, I hammered knowing that I'd take a lot of flak for it. Does that really make sense for scum to do?

But how can you even say that we have very little info. We know who voted Zilla. We know when they voted Zilla. We know why they said they voted Zilla. We know whether they still support it or they are trying to back off of it now that Zilla has flipped town. We know who avoided voting Zilla. We know how everyone is reacting today to the quicklynch. We have a ton of info. Now use it instead of crying about how little info we have,
Juls wrote: Don't get me wrong. What he did is very scummy and likely deserves to be lynched. But I also have to ask myself "why would scum do that and draw so much attention to himself?" And the answer I get back is that if he is town, that was stupid...if he is scum, that was stupid. So we have established his stupidity and now we have to determine if he is scum. He has a huge strike against him at this point.
Again, what is stupid about town hammering in that situation? Scum, yes. It's stupid as you take heat the next day. But as town, it doesn't hurt.
Juls wrote: Flava Flave: Please explain your vote to hammer. You sling mud at arelian but don't answer for your own actions.
As I've said a few times in this post, we now have a ton of info from very little context. The best thing a town could ask for. And I'm not slinging mud at arelian for quicklynching. I'm slinging mud at arelian on the basis that 95% (or higher) of all Day 1 mislynches include at least one scum and the fact that arelian is now backing away from that vote and attacking the Zilla lynch. Arelian is obvscum right now.
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:04 am

Post by Santos »

Francis wrote:Vote: Zilla

Let's not random vote.
I would like a serious wagon to form on Zilla.
I'd like us to be willing to push it to a lynch.

I'm not joking.
It seems I'm second on your list. So you would do this on Day 2 right here, right now, to me, hypothetically speaking?
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:06 am

Post by Santos »

@Juls, I want to talk to Francis first about his seriousness by deterring RVS altogether.
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:20 am

Post by Artem »

Day 2, Votecount 1


Flava Flave (2): Raivann, Francis

arelian (1): Flava Flave
Francis (1): Sho Minamimoto

Not voting(3): Santos, Juls, arelian


With 7 present, it takes 4 to force somebody to sign the warrant.

Deadline is Monday, August 10th, 5:00pm EST.
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:40 am

Post by arelian »

Flava, I'm not attacking the Zilla lynch, I'm only attacking you for the hammer. I like where Francis was going with that. I tried to help add some pressure. If what Juls says is true, though, I've never played with Zilla before and I don't know if she would be the one to actually crack under it or not. But still I'm not backing down from my vote.

For now I do want to hear more from Francis, and whatever Santos has to say about that.
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:45 pm

Post by Flava Flave »

Arelian, why was the hammer worse than any other vote on the wagon? Are you saying you agreed with a wagon, but not a lynch? If so, why?
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:21 pm

Post by Raivann »

Flava wrote: We have a scum in arelian/Francis.

Vote arelian

Francis may have been after reactions. You placed a L-2 vote, going with the plan, then attacked me for doing the same thing. Pot, meet kettle. Arelian and Raivann are scum together
So is it Arelian/Francis or arelian/Raivann?
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:44 pm

Post by Flava Flave »

Raivann wrote:
Flava wrote: We have a scum in arelian/Francis.

Vote arelian

Francis may have been after reactions. You placed a L-2 vote, going with the plan, then attacked me for doing the same thing. Pot, meet kettle. Arelian and Raivann are scum together
So is it Arelian/Francis or arelian/Raivann?
Arelian/Raivann.

I meant that between Arelian/Francis, one was scum. Sorry for the confusion.
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:28 pm

Post by arelian »

Flava Flave wrote:Arelian, why was the hammer worse than any other vote on the wagon? Are you saying you agreed with a wagon, but not a lynch? If so, why?
Pretty much yeah. I've said it a couple of times already, but all I wanted with my vote was to see if zilla would speak under pressure. I never imagined that she would have gotten hammered so quickly after I made my vote.

The hammer is worse because it's intent is not to pressure the person it's on. It's intent to is end discussion and lynch the person. Ending discussion is scummy, so your hammer is.

Raivann, what do you think about me/francis/flava?
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:54 pm

Post by Sho Minamimoto »

Flava Flave wrote:
Sho Minamimoto wrote: I believe that the odds the hammerer is scum is somewhat high, but could have been a stupid townie just following a plan. I personally think that Francis should explain the "this is not a random vote thing" more so than Flava being as stupid as the person he is pretending to be.
What was stupid about the lynch? We have loads of info just on the first page. And no Walls O Text to get it.
Nothing. You were stupid for hammering. The quicklynch highly indicates you're scum. How is that not stupid on your part?

Actually, talk about zetta stupid, I just now realized that you hammer Zilla after she voted herself. You have yet to claim you thought this self vote was a crack under pressure as people were trying to apply, which means... I bet your scum. I think a townie is very likely to mention something like the above, but you didn't.

Why?
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:02 pm

Post by Francis »

Flava Flave wrote:We have a
hell of a lot
more info on Page 1 than we would have with random votes.
How does this vindicate you from hammering less than 5 hours into the game?
Your actions lost us TWO pro-town players and gave the two goon an early chance to find each other.


Stop trying to say the little info on page one makes up for this. I've little doubt that
everyone
in this game can understand this, yourself included.


Flava's argument against arelian about the L-2 vote is bullshit. It's not a pot and kettle situation - the significance of the L-2 vote pales in comparison to the hammer. Flava will have trouble arguing otherwise.

I'm not going to get into a quote war. Flava has either deluded himself into thinking hammering 5 hours into a game is actually a good thing, or he's scum making a terrible defence. Even the WIFOM defence fails - benefits to scum were both greater and more probable.


These odds about scum on the wagon Flava and Sho have suggested are arbitrary. I see no reason to believe both scum having been on the wagon is unlikely. Please stop with the arbitrariness.


Santos, you're second because of how blatantly useless you've been.
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:04 pm

Post by Francis »

I've never played with Zilla before, but read this in the queue:
Zilla, in the Mini Theme queue wrote:/in for Artem's Death in the Family.

Sadly, his description has me thinking of how fun it would be to play scum, to the point where
I almost might be disappointed not to get scum
:P
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:11 am

Post by Juls »

I'm really not liking flavas defense. And I think arelian has presented his reasonings pretty clear.

Vote: Flava Flave (L-1)


I would like a claim.

@Francis: I am not sure I see your point with the last quote from Zilla in the queue?


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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:06 am

Post by Santos »

Francis wrote:Santos, you're second because of how blatantly useless you've been.
Is that because I didn't get to say anything on Day 1? :p You were the one that hurried it along from the start. However, I believe your statement at the beginning of the Day was to provoke quickly the two (or at least 1 scum) to vote quickly to get to night so they could find their partner more quickly. Thus, RVS was obliterated and we have Flave looking the most scummy.
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:29 am

Post by Flava Flave »

arelian wrote:
Flava Flave wrote:Arelian, why was the hammer worse than any other vote on the wagon? Are you saying you agreed with a wagon, but not a lynch? If so, why?
Pretty much yeah. I've said it a couple of times already, but all I wanted with my vote was to see if zilla would speak under pressure. I never imagined that she would have gotten hammered so quickly after I made my vote.

The hammer is worse because it's intent is not to pressure the person it's on. It's intent to is end discussion and lynch the person. Ending discussion is scummy, so your hammer is.
Tell me where discussion has ended.
Sho Minamimoto wrote: Actually, talk about zetta stupid, I just now realized that you hammer Zilla after she voted herself. You have yet to claim you thought this self vote was a crack under pressure as people were trying to apply, which means... I bet your scum. I think a townie is very likely to mention something like the above, but you didn't.

Why?
You're right. The self-vote for L-1 was dumb.
Francis wrote:How does this vindicate you from hammering less than 5 hours into the game?
Your actions lost us TWO pro-town players and gave the two goon an early chance to find each other.
Because Night 1 was never gonna come if I didn't hammer, right? :roll:
Francis wrote:Flava's argument against arelian about the L-2 vote is bullshit. It's not a pot and kettle situation - the significance of the L-2 vote pales in comparison to the hammer. Flava will have trouble arguing otherwise.
I don't plan to argue otherwise. I liked the vote at the time. What I didn't like was that
after placing a L-2 vote
, Arelian called the lynch scummy.
Francis wrote:These odds about scum on the wagon Flava and Sho have suggested are arbitrary. I see no reason to believe both scum having been on the wagon is unlikely. Please stop with the arbitrariness.
I'd be willing to bet that a scum was on the wagon. That means either you or Arelian is scum.
Juls wrote:
Vote: Flava Flave (L-1)


I would like a claim.
Flava Flave wrote:I've just added this game to my
Watched
Topics. And I don't believe I've played with any of you before, so sorry if
I don't remember names.


Vote Zilla

I like this idea.
Breadcrumbs bolded. I'm a weak watcher. Flavor is that I can't remember names. Basically, I'm a watcher who knows whether a player was targeted, but not by who. I wanted to use it to verify future claims, but I failed hard at that last night. I have no valuable info from Night 1. All I can tell you is Hero was (obviously) targeted. Jerks. Ironically, I picked him because I didn't think he'd be killed based on where his vote was on the wagon. Probably a meta kill. I don't know who has played with Hero though, and I try to avoid NK speculation anyway.
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:38 am

Post by arelian »

Discussion ended on day 1, where we could have gotten more interaction between zilla /hero / the rest of us. That's the point! We can't see what they thought about anyone, or what anyone thought of them. Both very useful observations as time goes on. We missed out on a lot of that because of your hammer. Sure, we have new things to discuss today, but we are lacking a lot of information we could have had.

I have to say though, I like your watcher claim. Convenient that you targeted hero, though.
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:06 am

Post by Flava Flave »

So you make a comment that could go either way. I think you're waiting to see what everyone else says. You'll leave your vote so someone can hammer if they'd like and you can call them scummy tomorrow. But if someone unvotes, you're going to follow and say you forgot to unvote.
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:04 am

Post by Juls »

Flava Flave wrote:I picked him because I didn't think he'd be killed based on where his vote was on the wagon. Probably a meta kill. I don't know who has played with Hero though, and I try to avoid NK speculation anyway.
So you are saying you targeted someone to watch thinking they wouldn't be targeted? I don't have to state the obvious but there are too many ways this points back to scum. 1) hero is dead, 2) you have set up a convenient claim in case a watcher did watch Herodotus or you were tracked.

I am not going to remove my vote because I am not buying it. It could just be an attempt to draw a watcher out to counter claim. I would like to know how you would react if I were at L-1 and claimed I targeted the night kill.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:20 am

Post by Flava Flave »

No, I thought he wouldn't be targeted specifically for a kill. I wanted him to be targeted by a town power role, so that if they claim later, I can verify that they are telling the truth.

Also, if I was scum trying to draw a power role out, I'd claim cop or doc. Not something obscure like weak watcher.

Yeah, I'd probably react the same way. Fakeclaiming a NK target as a target is probably the most retarded thing anyone can do, which is why I wouldn't do it (OMG I MUST BE SCUM CUZ I USED WIFOM!). I almost targeted Francis, but I figured scum might kill him..
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:36 pm

Post by Santos »

Flava wrote:I almost targeted Francis, but I figured scum might kill him..
I don't know anywhere a '..' is used, but are you trying to use '...' and somehow implying that you suspect Francis now?
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:49 pm

Post by arelian »

Flava Flave wrote:So you make a comment that could go either way. I think you're waiting to see what everyone else says. You'll leave your vote so someone can hammer if they'd like and you can call them scummy tomorrow. But if someone unvotes, you're going to follow and say you forgot to unvote.
If this was directed at me, I'm not voting for you, yet. And I don't want to hammer you for the same reasons that I think your hammer yesterday was bad. We need to give us all some time to talk.

The reason I like your claim though is that it shows that you knew that this wagon was going to form on you today, and you knew you would be forced to claim eventually. You knew that your hammer would be suspicious, and so you breadcrumbed a claim in the same post. You seemed to have this plan from the beginning to watch who would attack you today and draw out scum that way. It all seems to make logical sense. The problem is that it still could be a scum play- you could have planned to claim watcher in the beginning to "get you off the hook" for hammering so early. And claiming that you targetted zero is just too convenient of a target- since you don't have to risk being proven wrong.

That all said, I think I may believe your claim. You have to realize though that you come off as incredibly anti-town.
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:31 pm

Post by Raivann »

arelian wrote: Raivann, what do you think about me/francis/flava?
I'm gettin townie vibes off you and Francis. I think Flava is scummy for quick hammer.
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:10 pm

Post by Sho Minamimoto »

I think Flava's claim is real. Convenient, but I refuse to lynch him. I urge an unvote, but can't do anything as I didn't vote him.

Hm...

I'm wondering about who else is likely scum then.
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