TV Upick - Scum win

[izakthegoomba]

It's not scum... just Meran...

...me and izak never listen to each other - Rule. We just pretend from time to time.

[David Xanatos]

As someone who knows Fate, basing anything off anything he does is generally a bad idea.

[TheJakalope]

Well I'm not condoning his playstyle in any way, but I think that Lupus and Meran should be watched out for.

[redFF]

Actually,

UNVOTE: PiggyGal15
VOTE: plenty

Get an avatar.

this
not having an avatar just makes the thread more confusing and harder to read. Refusing to get an avatar is scummy and will be treated as such.

[Meransiel]

What do you mean? Is he townish or scummy

(I don't know)

? Do you think we should look into him

or not

? Sarcasm or

no

?

Answers.

Lupus, if anyone gets a vote for Izak claiming scum, it's Meransiel for how he reacted to it. I remember reading one game where Fate claimed scum, and the people who reacted strongly to it, turned out to be scum.

FoS: Meransiel

Yep, I see that as a good enough reason to be suspicious of me. So...why no vote?

Well I'm not condoning his playstyle in any way, but I think that Lupus and Meran should be watched out for.

For having ENTIRELY DIFFERENT approaches to the izak thing? Mind=blown.

[izakthegoomba]

Jakalope, you're not making any sense.

Xanatos, in #26, what were you talking about?

[David Xanatos]

I was replying to #24

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Lupus Vega

For the way it rolls off the tongue.

[Cobblerfone]

Vote: Lupus Vega

For the way it rolls off the tongue.

Do you usually say the names of players outloud?

[Meransiel]

Pair of Green Vees....nope, makes no sense to me.

[izakthegoomba]

Potential pronunciation of usernames often confuses me.

[CrashTextDummie]

Vote: Ghostwriter

I don't buy the miller claim.

I still think we should massclaim.

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Lupus Vega

For the way it rolls off the tongue.

Do you usually say the names of players outloud?

Only Lupus Vega..... it's very Latin-sounding.

[izakthegoomba]

Why would we massclaim this early on? We should at least wait until we're down to 9 or 10 players - and maybe not even then. It depends on the circumstances. Massclaiming this early does nothing for the town, and outs EVERY SINGLE PR IN THE GAME to the scum. A D1 massclaim WILL make us lose. It is VERY scummy to want a D1 massclaim.

UNVOTE: plenty
VOTE: CrashTextDummy

[izakthegoomba]

WAIT A FUCKING SECOND

You've been on the site over five years? Amd you want a D1 massclaim? Holy crap.

[David Xanatos]

That would be an ecumenical matter.

VOTE: CTD

[izakthegoomba]

I want an explanation. Next post, CTD, you'd better have a brilliant reason for a massclaim. Otherwise, eat rope.

[Cobblerfone]

I've been under the impression that he means nameclaim. Since, you know, it's a upick, and a regular massclaim would be illogical. I don't like him going after the claimed-miller though, since I find the way it was claimed believeable. But first:

Vote: Lupus Vega

For the way it rolls off the tongue.

Do you usually say the names of players outloud?

Only Lupus Vega..... it's very Latin-sounding.

So his name was the only name you said outloud? What was the sequence of events that led you to say his name outloud?

[izakthegoomba]

@Cobbler don't give him a way out... He's been here five years, he should know the difference between a nameclaim and a massclaim. I fully expect him to use this as an excuse now, so in advance: I'm not buying it.

[CrashTextDummie]

Why would we massclaim this early on? We should at least wait until we're down to 9 or 10 players - and maybe not even then. It depends on the circumstances. Massclaiming this early does nothing for the town, and outs EVERY SINGLE PR IN THE GAME to the scum. A D1 massclaim WILL make us lose. It is VERY scummy to want a D1 massclaim.

Oh, the drama.

D1 massclaim puts the scum on the spot and forces them to commit to a play at a point when they have no bearing at all on the game. It opens them up to being counterclaimed if they try to gambit. It allows for better synergy between town PRs. Your claim that it does nothing for the town straight up isn't true. And a town that plays well doesn't need any power roles to win, so your "D1 massclaim spells CERTAIN DOOM for the town" hysterics are entirely unwarranted.

It has been my impression since I've returned to the site that mods tend to load the town up with powerroles, so I thought this would be a good opportunity to go for a D1 massclaim. I am aware of the fact that this is a controversial suggestion, your reaction is still over the top.

I don't like him going after the claimed-miller though, since I find the way it was claimed believeable.

What about the claim in particular makes it believable to you? I am highly critical of early game miller claims on principle, it's a very safe and basic scum gambit.

[izakthegoomba]

1. Counterclaiming is irrelevant in big(ger) games. It is entirely possible for there to be more than one of any particular PR - even mores in a UPick game.

2. Synegy between PRs isn't going to help much unless we can find a breaking strategy, which is unlikely.

3. Wrong. If the scum have PRs (which they almost certainl do), the town will have PRs to balance them. And that's the point - BALANCE. If we lose our PRs, we are at a significant disadvantage. Sure, a really good town might still win it, but I'm not going to gamble the win on the tiniest chance that every pro-town player will play this game exceptionally well.

4. If you believe that games are PR-heavy in general, you subsequently believe that mot games are nightgame-heavy. Not only does this contradict your "a good town doesn't need PRs" comment, it also means we need to keep whatever PRs we might have. Forcin them to claim marks them out as NK targets.

5. My "hysterics", as you put it (I don't think I agree), are not unwarranted. I believe I have argued well enough that an early massclaim is very likely to cause a town loss and, subsequently, that no pro-town player would want one.

Confirm Vote

[TheJakalope]

VOTE: CrashTextDummie

What the hell. This is today's lynch.

[Shiidaji]

I have a better idea. Everyone who's scum, raise your hand! Come on!

~

And Izak has a point.

Firstly, why would scum gambit so early on anyway? And how would there be synergy between town PRs if say, scum claimed PRs? Just a bunch of WIFOM after the night phase.

Mass nameclaim would be pretty interesting though.

Unvote

Vote: CrashtextDummy

D1 Wagon gogogo!

[izakthegoomba]

No point in a nameclaim - sure, it might be interesting, but it gives us no advantage, and risks giving the scum clues.

This is today's lynch.

Amen, brother.

[CrashTextDummie]

1. Counterclaiming is irrelevant in big(ger) games. It is entirely possible for there to be more than one of any particular PR - even mores in a UPick game.

2. Synegy between PRs isn't going to help much unless we can find a breaking strategy, which is unlikely.

3. Wrong. If the scum have PRs (which they almost certainl do), the town will have PRs to balance them. And that's the point - BALANCE. If we lose our PRs, we are at a significant disadvantage. Sure, a really good town might still win it, but I'm not going to gamble the win on the tiniest chance that every pro-town player will play this game exceptionally well.

4. If you believe that games are PR-heavy in general, you subsequently believe that mot games are nightgame-heavy. Not only does this contradict your "a good town doesn't need PRs" comment, it also means we need to keep whatever PRs we might have. Forcin them to claim marks them out as NK targets.

5. My "hysterics", as you put it (I don't think I agree), are not unwarranted. I believe I have argued well enough that an early massclaim is very likely to cause a town loss and, subsequently, that no pro-town player would want one.

1. Massclaim allows us to judge all claims, including counterclaims, against the overall makeup of the set-up as it is revealed to us. It also allows us to develop strategies to weed out fake claims.

2. D1 massclaim very rarely provides a breaking strategy, and only in poorly designed games. It guarantees optimal use of all power roles, it avoids power roles interfering with each other. Synergy between PRs very obviously helps a great deal irregardless of anything else.

3. Scum PRs are almost exclusively designed around town PRs. Some scum PRs are completely invalidated by massclaim (rolecop), some are strengthened by massclaim (roleblocker). It's a trade off. In any case, there is no PR that would give scum a significant edge if all town roles are in the open. Once again, your claim that this would greatly impact our chances of winning is unwarranted.

4. In PR-heavy games, it's not hard for scum to hit PRs to begin with. In a nightgame-heavy game, the town benefits greatly from all public knowledge, while scum profits from obfuscation. Obviously, outing PRs marks them out as NK targets. Scum usually can't kill more than one PR at once.

5. It's not unreasonable to be against a D1 massclaim. It is unreasonable to be against massclaim out of some kind of superstition that massclaim is the work of the devil, without considering its merits.

Everyone who votes me for suggesting massclaim needs to provide a detailed reason for why they, personally, are opposed to it.