Page 2 of 7
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:31 am
by ThursdayAngel
↑ Zenatsu wrote: ↑ Voidedmafia wrote:You sure you don't have any questions for me at all yet? THis ain't the Zen and Angel show, after all, and I can't imagine that you don't have SOMETHING to ask me.
I can not ask you things that brinatoo has stated, I can not ask you things that askesis has stated. You are new, and therefore I have nothing on you. I am waiting for you to ask me questions.
@Voided: Definitely agree with this. That's why I said I want to dig up more info on "your slot" and not "you." Right now the only real questions we can ask are your reads on both of us, but that's still on its way.
As we wait for Zen's reply to my arguments, we should also wait for you/me to read/reread the cache (which is a little clunky to use in my opinion). The deadline has been restarted. Are you maybe trying to rush a mislynch, Voided?
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:21 am
by Equinox
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:14 am
by Voidedmafia
post 148, page 6.
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:39 am
by Zenatsu
Post #153 - Page 7
Zenatsu wrote:I choose TA because hes pushing the L-1 vote on DBK, and I dont really find his case doing so enough to warrent a L-1 vote. If you think otherwise then the hammer vote should be just as spotty.
TA pretty much claims DBK scum in post Post 120. I feel the only reason he voted was because of how the CLT is a scumtell. Also implying in said post TA is not very confident in his vote for DBK. Why he voted anyways is beyond me.
Post 126 from TA consists of his "Reason" to pust DBK's L-1 vote. He wants to pressure DBK into a claim and 'have clear reads on'. But couldn't he have just asked DBK anyways? I feel the answer would not have varied greatly.
This is cut-and-dry. TA wants DBK's claim. What he will do with this claim, only time will tell
Tis why I chose him, in that state of time.
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:33 pm
by Voidedmafia
Alright, thank you.
Considering that making a pressure vote and stating it to be pressure defeats its purpose, TA just nullified his own vote (since point #2 in 126 was retracted by himself), so that puts some scumpoints on TA.
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:23 pm
by ThursdayAngel
↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Alright, thank you.
Considering that making a pressure vote and stating it to be pressure defeats its purpose, TA just nullified his own vote (since point #2 in 126 was retracted by himself), so that puts some scumpoints on TA.
In my defense, at that point in time I was still getting into the hang of the mafia game, and this was how I understood votes worked.
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:21 pm
by Voidedmafia
Granted. However, you still nullified your own argument, and pushing it as if it isn't nulled certainly isn't town.
And pressure votes are fine, but as I said, stating them to be pressure effectively nullifies any sort of gain you could get from them (not that you CAN'T, but I doubt you'd get anything), and usually then makes that vote worthless at best and somewhat scummy at worst, depending on context and stuff.
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:32 pm
by ThursdayAngel
↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Granted. However, you still nullified your own argument, and pushing it as if it isn't nulled certainly isn't town.
And pressure votes are fine, but as I said, stating them to be pressure effectively nullifies any sort of gain you could get from them (not that you CAN'T, but I doubt you'd get anything), and usually then makes that vote worthless at best and somewhat scummy at worst, depending on context and stuff.
Yes, I got that. You will also see how some time in the later pages a similar scenario occurs: I reveal the intent behind my actions because people were suspected it to be scummy. However, such a revelation broke up any chance of my action actually accomplishing its purposes.
Anyway, I understand your point.
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:16 pm
by Voidedmafia
Well, 156 appeases that part of things, anyways.
160 by Zen is meh-okay, but losing your temper at the end doesn't really help you, and kinda negates the rest of it. Makes it sound more passive-aggresive, kinda. 161 is much better (and not a bad case), and DBK's own little peeves don't detract from that.
Finished with Page 7. Right now PoE would make me vote TA, as 160 and 161 together make me think Zen is townier than TA. Still have 27 more pages left, though, so -_-
Also, Zen, we're still waiting on that rebuttal.
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:30 am
by Zenatsu
Thursday wrote:I agree with you on that Brin point. After my last reading of his ISO I did not feel any more enlightened about his role within the game. Askesis' doc lynch really looked bad on him but Brin's play did not look particularly town, nor did it look particularly scum.
About the Askesis post you showed me: There is no denying that it is a very well-thought out, logical, and pro-town post, and so is probably town. However there is still a possibility that he's scum (look at RayFrost, he did have some pro-town looking posts too but he turned out scum) so I think the issue you're looking at here is simply that Askesis is a better poster than I am. In that case I can't make any defense against that.
In earlier days, such a reasoning (A is more pro-town looking than B therefore I vote B!) would not suffice, but there are only two choices here so I couldn't blame you if you vote me for that.
===---===---===
So since Zen already replied, here are my thoughts after that ISO read.
Zen is scummier than Brin. 3 arguments:
Townlynch wagons.
ISOs.
Ray Iso 2: Zen is town, zen's not revealing meta does not read scum, etc, askesis is focusing too much on zen, etc.
Ray Iso 18, 37: Zen is town.
Ray Iso 38, 72: Strongest town reads, Askesis and Zen.
Ray Iso 105: Zen still town.
Ray Iso 117: Zen most town, Brin most scummy out of Zen/TA/Brin.
Zen's Isos:
Earlier Isos 60, 63, 65: Zen was certain that Ray is town.
Later Isos 98, 101, 102: Ray is so scummy.
To me it looked like they were a scumteam trying to protect each other in the early game. But Zen seemed to be bussing Ray when it the entire atmosphere went towards a Ray lynch.
Zen - Brin interaction.
That whole drama of Zen calling Brin names, "trolling", etc. I feel that it was a smokescreen to divert attention. The whole banter was unnecessary and only served to confuse. I have no idea why you would even want to bring the definition of "troll" to this topic.
Argument 1:
You have no idea how bad I feel about that. But if you honestly read their defenses, you can see the logic behind my reasons to lynch. in a case-by-case point. I poked at the weakest parts of someone's defense/claim. If they could not convince me they were town, well, I voted them. I had a lynch where I was letting rayfrost manipulate my vote, but I had to stop flopping or it would have looked even more scummy. Oh which lynch was that >.<
Argument 2:
If you're using the fact that ray is pointing me as town, and using that as a partner connection. It makes better sense that ray would bus his partner rather than protect him, to look more town in the end. If mafia bus their partner, and then the flip is scum, it practically becomes auto-town points unless someone can spot a mafia connection between the too (its easy to make it obvious).
Also, I thought ray was town, his posting made sense in a lot of cases, and i could not tag him as scum (Hes a more advanced player than I). but later down the road i just started seeing him a scum, and partnered with BBmolla at that. Im not sure what set me off. it was possibly the process of elimination that lead me to the thought, but I could not find incriminating posts from him.
The way I see it, is that ray was using me to get some town cred if I flipped town. he possibly thought I would be a next lynch subject. But I appear to be scum on everyone's radar around the time. Look at molla, IIRC he hasn't pinned me as a full scum subject, and he has never paired me with anyone in a partner relations. I Called molla scum because he poked people without giving information himself. But that is his style. He trusts himself, and himself only. Which is a valid mindset to play, but it makes you look scummy to people who say "All town must give all reads/cases at all times", which i think its stupid. Easy Scum hiding grounds.
Argument 3:
a diversion? You can't call what I was doing "Trolling". I was very more or less aggressive to get him to partake int he game. You know he wasn't doing anything, nothing he said was content, it was all fluff, just to show he was there. Could I have not insulted him? Sure, but that is the way I play. I expect a lot of people to not like it, it angers them, and then gives me what I want. Information.
So what is confusing about the whole slam against brin? I did that same thing to askesis when he tunneled the shit out of me. In fact if you take any notice, he tunneled me so hard he practically ignore everything else. He was set on DBK, and Zenatsu. The whole CLT (Cop lying thing) was bullshit in itself, now that I am a bit more seasoned in the ways of mafia (Still a noob, no doubt). The more I look at the past, the more I see the asesis/brin slot scummy. I don't see you as scum much anymore as I read through the caches'.
Anything else my dear?
@voided:
I've been insulting and aggressive to Askesis and Brinatoo. Askesis was mainly agitation to myself repeating the same information. Brin, well, he started it, i pressed him harder and he broke. Was rather funny actually.
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:33 am
by Zenatsu
Deadline is in two weeks. I suggest we take this week to re-read, and build some cases on everyone (me and TA are just going to fight each other at this point), then next week we throw down the votes.
in a nutshell:
This week: Read the game over, make assumptions, generate new (or old) reads
Next week: Throw down the votes, defend yourself, convene others
last week: Hammer time.
WE WILL LYNCH, NO EXCEPTIONS.
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:37 am
by ThursdayAngel
I have just scanned your rebuttal and will review it probably tomorrow (it's currently final exam week and I have one last final tomorrow.) But as of now I have no other argument against you, and as I said I am currently trying to review voided's slot.
And of course we will lynch. Anyone who opposes this at LyLo is bound to be scum.
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:43 pm
by Voidedmafia
↑ ThursdayAngel wrote: ↑ Zenatsu wrote: ↑ Voidedmafia wrote:You sure you don't have any questions for me at all yet? THis ain't the Zen and Angel show, after all, and I can't imagine that you don't have SOMETHING to ask me.
I can not ask you things that brinatoo has stated, I can not ask you things that askesis has stated. You are new, and therefore I have nothing on you. I am waiting for you to ask me questions.
@Voided: Definitely agree with this. That's why I said I want to dig up more info on "your slot" and not "you." Right now the only real questions we can ask are your reads on both of us, but that's still on its way.
As we wait for Zen's reply to my arguments, we should also wait for you/me to read/reread the cache (which is a little clunky to use in my opinion). The deadline has been restarted. Are you maybe trying to rush a mislynch, Voided?
Well, if wanting questions to answer=wanting a mislynch, well, that's, like, your opinion, man. (and yes, that is roughly grammatically correct).
Also, you can ask me my opinions on them. Amished tell kinda applies, but I think that's shit anyways so it doesn't faze me.
Related note: Holy crap, how'd I miss this post?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:44 am
by Zenatsu
I am failing to understand where you got your formula from.
I cannot ask YOU what someone else has posted. Because they are not YOUR thoughts. Ergo, we need YOU to ask us questions so we can get a better understanding of where you are coming from.
If we asked you "What do you think about this post from your predecessor" we will only get speculation. It wont work.
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:25 am
by Voidedmafia
Well, yeah, I'm not a mind-jacker/reader who can figure out what they were thinking at such-and-such a time. And okay, you can't ask questions about ask or brin. What about yourselves? Surely you can ask my opinion on a post from TA, and vice-versa, and please don't tell me there aren't posts in the cache that you want me to look at specifically, cuz that's bullshit.
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:50 pm
by ThursdayAngel
Reply to Zen. (Arguments not in order)
Argument 1:
Sorry if you feel bad about that. But the fact remains that you were on all the wagons, so if it's just a bad coincidence, I cannot do anything about it but suspect you.
Argument 3:
I used the word "confuse" because I meant "distracting." (And I put "trolling" in quotes because you weren't really doing so in the modern definition of the word.) It just seemed like you were making such a huge splash in the sea over a small issue, that from my point of view simply looked like trying to muddle with the flow of player's thoughts by creating a series of name-calling and useless argument posts.
Argument 2:
Your counterargument to this, however, has led me to think of you in a more town way. "The way I see it, is that ray was using me to get some town cred if I flipped town." -> This makes perfect sense, and you're not as scummy anymore in my book. And after giving it much thought, I now agree that it did seem like Ray was quite a great scum-player that he looked town all throughout the early stages, and so would naturally lead anyone to the same opinions you had of him.
====
Now I'm looking at Voided = scum. Based on the wagons, he was also on all the townlynches. He does not seem all that town either, because of his lack of content (not Voided's, but his slots').
I'm still trying to make a case, but I have some comments.
Zen, Post 835: "I am not sure if his confidence in saying I am scum to him saying "Good game Thursdayscum" is... well... adequate. It just strikes me as odd that he wants to vote me, but keeps pushing that you are scum too."
> I changed my mind about this behavior. I originally thought it was a town move to test the waters, but now I think this seemed suspicious. If he were unsure, he could just have said so. However, he repeatedly congratulated me for a "good scum game", but keeps saying I was town. This is a very confusing behavior. I cannot make sense of it
at all
, and it looks scummy.
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:25 pm
by Voidedmafia
Brin's basically saying that you're town, but if you're scum then you did a hell of a job convincing him that you're town. Yes, I know it sounds like I'm speaking for someone who left, but it seems pretty clear what he's saying to me.
Also, I assume you mean Brin in regards to "lack of content", because through page 8, at least, askseis (sp) has a good amount of content.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:11 am
by Voidedmafia
Rayfrost, post 286 wrote:The askesis / zenatsu arguing still looks like a giant townie vs townie argument. Askesis looks like town that's suffering from tunnel vision (in case you don't know what this is it's when you feel so completely right about a scumread that you focus on that even when your arguments are grasping at straws and not solid, as well as ignoring other possible scum). Zenatsu's posting so far has been consistent to me: what he's focusing on / his thought processes don't look like they come from the "I'm scum needing to mke people think I'm town" perspective.
That does kinda sum up Zen as of Page 11-13, really, and the ask vs. Zen argument as a whole (really, why hadn't he dropped it by then?).
I know you were V/LA during this, TA, but the lack of content only pushes you as the PoE lynch between you two.
Zen: That scum-o-meter sounded like a pain in the ass to update, but I think it might not be a bad idea to do another whirl of it for the two of us now.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:21 am
by Voidedmafia
EBWOP: Oh, wait, no, you were V/LA. That just makes it worse, really.
Though, Zen does have a point about the post notifier. There's still benefit of the doubt for you, as you may have just pressed "end" constantly to get to the submit button or something (I've done that before when dealing with Fate-, kiwi-, or hindu-spam <_<), and I can accept that, but as I think you admit, it makes your explanation sound a lot less implausible.
Also, I think Pizza can be that lazy <_<
That's page 14, and it's nearly 6:30. Cya tomorrow.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:05 am
by Zenatsu
↑ ThursdayAngel wrote:
Zen, Post 835: "I am not sure if his confidence in saying I am scum to him saying "Good game Thursdayscum" is... well... adequate. It just strikes me as odd that he wants to vote me, but keeps pushing that you are scum too."
> I changed my mind about this behavior. I originally thought it was a town move to test the waters, but now I think this seemed suspicious. If he were unsure, he could just have said so. However, he repeatedly congratulated me for a "good scum game", but keeps saying I was town. This is a very confusing behavior. I cannot make sense of it
at all
, and it looks scummy.
↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Brin's basically saying that you're town, but if you're scum then you did a hell of a job convincing him that you're town. Yes, I know it sounds like I'm speaking for someone who left, but it seems pretty clear what he's saying to me.
Also, I assume you mean Brin in regards to "lack of content", because through page 8, at least, askseis (sp) has a good amount of content.
Voided pretty much said it. The way I read it, he was more like "Thursday, I love you, I really fucking hate zen, and hes scum. however, if you are the scum, and hes town. Good Game! Vote zen dammit."
I did a good job pissing brin off. But that's what happens when you get on my aggressive side.
Unfortunately, we haft to keep digging around Thursday. I feel i'm getting a better understanding of who is scum, but I need to do some research. But as far as the brin thing, that is pretty baseless.
↑ Voidedmafia wrote:
Zen: That scum-o-meter sounded like a pain in the ass to update, but I think it might not be a bad idea to do another whirl of it for the two of us now.
Why my dear the SCUUM-O-METER is of no complications to set up at all! No my dear the SCUM-O-METER can be used and changed on the ball! Its easy to see, easy to read, easy to comprehend the thoughts from me! Give it a twist, give it a twirl, the SCUM-O-METER is there for you girl!
Equinox
T-------N-------S
[♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥]♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
THRU DA ROOF!
BURN THE WITCH!
ThursdayAngel
T-------N-------S
[|||||||||||-----]
Voidedmafia
T-------N-------S
[||||||||--------]
Voided's slot
T-------N-------S
[||||||||||||||--]
<Use vertical lines | to indicate where the meter is
or use your own symbol! ♥~!@#$%^&*>
If you would like to make your own SCUM-O-METER! here is the building frame:
Code: Select all
[center]
[color=#FF8000]<Name>[/color]
T-------N-------S
[----------------]
<Use vertical lines | to indicate where the meter is
or use your own symbol! ♥~!@#$%^&*>
[/center]
Credits of the SCUM-O-METER goes to its original creator, Zenatsu
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:35 am
by Voidedmafia
Eh, I'll let you use those. They seem to work for ya, so...
Also, as of page 13/14, TA's recent post with a list of reads is good, though NurC brought up a minor point here:
Nurc wrote:Seems to want to disguise himself by not revealing meta. Could it be that he's a PR? Or just plain scum? I doubt he's vanilla.
I don't think you can deny that, to an outsider, that line does sound like rolefishing (which, if you've forgotten, is trying to overtly or covertly suss out potential PRs through wordings or phrases or such things, which is anti-town at best and incredibly scummy at worst). I see his point (even if he says later that he "might be reading too much into it"), but if I put through my head a few times it reads more like outward musing than rolefishing.
There's also the "Zigg and TA are singing each other's praises" part, but since Zigg is town that point is kinda moot. "Kinda" because you can still be scum, but it doesn't have the same bite as when he originally said it.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:14 pm
by ThursdayAngel
Looking at Askesis' slot, he wasn't exactly screaming scum, so I think I have to look at Brin again. (We have to go deeper!)
Askesis looked to me to have solid posting, but I am afraid of another Ray scenario: good posting non-bbvious scum.
↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Though, Zen does have a point about the post notifier. There's still benefit of the doubt for you, as you may have just pressed "end" constantly to get to the submit button or something (I've done that before when dealing with Fate-, kiwi-, or hindu-spam <_<), and I can accept that, but as I think you admit, it makes your explanation sound a lot less implausible.
Ah, this again. Yeah near the beginning I wasn't too familiar with the website, so stuff like that happened.
↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Also, I assume you mean Brin in regards to "lack of content", because through page 8, at least, askseis (sp) has a good amount of content.
Yes you're right I meant Brin.
↑ Zenatsu wrote:Voided pretty much said it. The way I read it, he was more like "Thursday, I love you, I really fucking hate zen, and hes scum. however, if you are the scum, and hes town. Good Game! Vote zen dammit."
Thanks for your input. So apparently it was something of a grudge post.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:10 pm
by Voidedmafia
Must not comment about the innuendo in the parenthesis...damn, too late.
RE post notifier: eh, it's okay
RE lack of content: all right.
RE Brin: Eh...not really. I suppose it could be intepreted like that, but I personally don't see it.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:08 pm
by Voidedmafia
TA's response to Ziggler RE his new doc claim: I don't like (though that's just because that's not what I'd do), but it also reads as townie. It's logical and all, which is why I think it has some townvibes, but I personally don't see how you could believe Ziggler on this thing.
Zen's response is effectively the same as mine would be (LYNCH IT WITH FIRE!), so I can't comment on it as my bias would be too much to really get anything out of it. But I do agree with Ray about how you responded to BB's wishy-washyness and called him out on it.
Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:28 pm
by Voidedmafia
Ziggler's death didn't really change my opinions, but BB's sudden declaration of a Rubi/TA team without much buildup to TA-scum beforehand (unless I missed something) makes TA more townie. Even with the hindsight of knowing BB flipped town, this kind of attack doesn't make me think TA was scummy at all.