Mini 247 - Zodiac Mafia - GAME OVER!


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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:30 am

Post by NanookTheWolf »

Unvote: Tyfo
.. C'mon, it was only random.

Vote: Phoebus
.. Maybe this will strike him as really scummy :)
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:35 am

Post by Tyfo »

Nanook, it is okay. :)
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:28 am

Post by Dranko20 »

Unvote Fuldu
(if my votes count, i dont know is the vote count was a mistake or mechanic either)

That's what I was thinking Fuldu, but I wanted to hear it from your mouth.
armlx wrote:FOS Phoebus for suggesting no lynch. I have never seen a game situation outside of late game where no lynch has been a good action for the town.
This doesn't seem right. Lots of times people no lynch if a game starts in Day, because we are basically going off of nothing for the lynch. No cop investigations, if someone claims they have no targets yet, no has been killed, and we don't know how many killers there are or how many different kinds of killers there are. If we no lynch, then we get a night, and just one night can give us powerful information.


Pressure Vote: Armlx
Let's hear what you have to say. That's 3 votes.
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:52 am

Post by Nox »

VOTE COUNT


armlx
[3]
-
Fuldu, Bifrost, Dranko20

Fuldu
[1]
-
Aureal

Nanookthewolf
[1]
-
Bamboomancer

Phoebus
[1]
-
NanookTheWolf


Not Voting
[6]
-
CaptainDuctTape, GreenLiquid, armlx, Phoebus, Tyfo, Yosarian2


The missed Dranko20 vote was my mistake. Its been rectified :)

It's
7
to lynch
:)
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by NanookTheWolf »

I'm not even going to get in the middle of this no lynch discussion .. it's a lost cause.
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:40 am

Post by armlx »

Bifrost/Fuldu has a point about the death scenes. I'm not really knowledgable about the zodic, but with such different icons its probably right. Lions don't spear people, people don't maul people, etc...
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:56 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Dranko20 wrote:[
This doesn't seem right. Lots of times people no lynch if a game starts in Day, because we are basically going off of nothing for the lynch. No cop investigations, if someone claims they have no targets yet, no has been killed, and we don't know how many killers there are or how many different kinds of killers there are. If we no lynch, then we get a night, and just one night can give us powerful information.

That only works if the town night powers are stronger then the scum night powers. And that's very rarely true; in a well-balanced mafia game, if the scum play perfectly during the day, they should win.

Starting in day is a clear advantage for the town, because that gives the town an extra day to discuss and create voting records and such, and another day for scum to make mistakes. "How many killers there are" is useful information, but it's not really going to tell us who we should lynch
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:06 am

Post by armlx »

Oh wow, theres a page 2 to comment on.

Honestly, late game once we know the death causes, a role claim will help us narrow down to the mafia. Either they double up on a claim or admit they can kill in the way people have died in. I only FOSed Pheobus because he is too good to not realize a no lynch is bad.
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:25 am

Post by Phoebus »

GreenLiquid wrote:So Tyfo is definately innocent? That role sounds sucky, it would make him a huge mafia target.
Come now, what?
I'd think more along the lines of - a very good choice for a doctor.
How can you possibly overlook that?
This leaves the scum to decide whether they want to go cop hunting and leave doc alone, where he could end up in end game with the innocent or go doc hunting giving cop more choices. That's a dillemma, I'd rather they have...

vote: GreenLiquid

Tyfo wrote:Hmm, so you WILL finish people off? Sounds like;

1. You are scum, and just accidently revealed yourself.
2. You are townie, and trying to get lynched.
3. You are aggresive townie, and trying to get lynched.
If you weren't mod confirmed, I'd vote you.

1. No.
2. No.
3. Yes and no.

Go meta game. Be my guest.

However, coming to Bifrost...
unvote: GreenLiquid

vote: Bifrost

The starting in day and revealing of an innocent this early on by the mod seems pointing towards either the mafia having very powerful abilities or simply a large mafia. I'm inclined to believe the powerful ability idea, after all this is the Zodiac mafia. One would think that these constellations have more power than mortal scum. I think the same goes for protown roles, though.
A second "random" vote.
Musing about constellations being powerful.
Looking at all sides of the situation, with a "though" added for spice?
Sublimate much?

Oh and if I die this night, Nanook killed me.
Go look at Stewie's mini, Kerplunk's mini among others. Nanook kills me! :( {;))

and armlx,
I'm flattered about the "too good" comment. I beg to differ with that.
And also, do you know why the no lynch is never actively discussed? Because some gods, a long time ago decided it was bad and not it so strongly censured that mere mention of it gets people FoSed if not voted.
It's a meme and no one's got balls to try it.
*shrug*

I said I woudn't post unless I had matter to respond to.
I do here.

Actually, I'd vote either Bifrost or armlx but seeing as he's already on 3 votes, I'll desist. And no, I don't FoS but now you know my List.
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:30 am

Post by Tyfo »

Phoebus wrote:
Tyfo wrote:Hmm, so you WILL finish people off? Sounds like;

1. You are scum, and just accidently revealed yourself.
2. You are townie, and trying to get lynched.
3. You are aggresive townie, and trying to get lynched.
If you weren't mod confirmed, I'd vote you.
But that would be a scummy thing to do. ;)

But, remember - as confirmed innocent I can do every scummy action in the book, and not be considered scummy.
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:02 am

Post by Phoebus »

It would prolly be in every one's best interests not to be a prick about it though...
Leave that to me.
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:05 am

Post by armlx »

Really? I never knew that about the no lynch. I've just never seen it turn out good early on.
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:05 pm

Post by Nox »

VOTE COUNT


armlx
[3]
-
Fuldu, Bifrost, Dranko20

Fuldu
[1]
-
Aureal

Nanookthewolf
[1]
-
Bamboomancer

Phoebus
[1]
-
NanookTheWolf

Bifrost
[1]
-
Phoebus


Not Voting
[5]
-
CaptainDuctTape, GreenLiquid, armlx, Tyfo, Yosarian2


It's
7
to lynch
:)
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:32 pm

Post by Bifrost »

@Phoebus: I've seen many instances of people voting double random-voters, and I've never figured out why on Earth that'd be scummy. Some people claim that it'll allow scum to "speedlynch" people, but that would be a dead giveaway, and thus be even better for town if scum did do that. Some people overreact to a second vote, and then other people overreact on the people overreacting to the second vote, which gives us some -- better than pretty much nil, as we have now -- information and things to talk about. As far as I know we do not catch scum by sitting around and staring blankly into space. Please enlighten me on this subject, if you will.

As for your others points such as constellations being powerful and the "though", I'm doing none other than one simple thing:
speculating
. I don't see any reason to continue further.
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And with that last vote, No Lynch was lynched!
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:53 am

Post by NanookTheWolf »

Phoebus wrote:Oh and if I die this night, Nanook killed me.
Go look at Stewie's mini, Kerplunk's mini among others. Nanook kills me! {)
To bad the game didn't start with night .. now who am I going to kill? :wink:
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:39 am

Post by Phoebus »

Bifrost,
From my experience, and I've been scum a good number of times,
speculation
is one of the most used tactics by scum to appear pro town. Look at at all sides of the situation - try and seem reasonable...especially when you know who's evil and who's not. That's what scum do.
Townies, on the other hand, will be suspicious of everyone until proven innocent and know only that they are good and that they win with the good. They look at it from one perspective and no other.

Therefore, with you
speculating
, my scumdar was set off.
Dranko was frank about his pressure vote.
Why would you put on a "random" vote, especially when you're aware of the norms prevailing in this community? It's same as the case of the no lynch - whoever does it/suggests it, is suspected. Only, no lynch is such taboo that no one does it seriously. A second random vote might just be brushed under the carpet under this logic, which you stated:
Some people claim that it'll allow scum to "speedlynch" people, but that would be a dead giveaway, and thus be even better for town if scum did do that.
But the very nature of that logic makes it an effective gambit. Plus, it's rare, so more easily noticeable.
Everyone knows random votes are without reason backing them and just thrown around. A second vote is on its way of being a pressure vote and a bandwagon. If it's a pressure/bandwagon vote, call it that. Votes beyond an initial one thrown out cannot be random because they have consequences - a speed lynch is not (necessarily) one of them.

Nanook - you always kill me the second night anyway. You let me speak once and then off me. Scumbag.
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:43 am

Post by GreenLiquid »

Is anybody up for some role speculation?
Scummy as it may sound, it could be of use to us.

Libra is dead.
Virgo = innocent

The twins must be masons or we'd not have 12 players.
Cancer/Scorpio/Taurus = killers of some sort? Perhaps Leo along with them? He could be blocker/strong townie.
Aquarius = healer (water)
Sagi can also be killer.
Aries = blocker??townie??
Capricorn = copricorn?

For what it's worth, this were the lines along which I was thinking when I was contemplating a zodiac mafia.
From my experience, and I've been scum a good number of times, speculation is one of the most used tactics by scum to appear pro town
Whaa?

FOS: Phoebus
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:49 am

Post by Aureal »

Yeah, I don't much care for that "speculation is scummy" notion, either. Being able to look at things from all sides is a
good
thing.
UNVOTE: Fuldu, VOTE: Phoebus
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:46 pm

Post by Fuldu »

I'll defend Phoebus's "speculation is scummy" comments. Speculation leaks information not only about the overall setup of the game, but also about the individual roles that a speculative player may or may not have. In the early stages of the game, this is generally more useful for scum (who know more about what the setup looks like than any single player and are able to speculate in a way that deflects attention away from them). A player who produces a lot of speculation may be scum trying to mislead while appearing useful or they may be town giving away information about their identity. Phoebus, for example, is unlikely to be any of the various zodiac signs he claimed as possible scum (unless he
is
scum). By starting players in producing a lot of speculation about possible roles, the person who pushes for more speculation is behaving in a way that is often (though not always) more likely to help scum than town. Speculation has its place, but in many instances, it's scummy.
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:02 pm

Post by Dranko20 »

What Pheobus said makes a lot of sense to me, in fact I find it far from scummy.
Aureal wrote:Yeah, I don't much care for that "speculation is scummy" notion, either. Being able to look at things from all sides is a good thing. UNVOTE: Fuldu, VOTE: Phoebus.
I agree, looking at things from all sides -is- a good thing, but it is also something that most people in general lack. People in general jump to conclusions, are hostile and angry, ready to point the gun at anyone rather then themselves. Just like Pheobus said, people are not rational, espiecally inncoent people.

Guilty people, on the other hand, are QUITE the oppisite. They know whos innocent and whos not, and try and use logic to vote off the innocent, and they tend to be fairly rational, because they want to appear guilty. It's all an illusion.

Anyways.

Armlx's defense was utter crap and I'm more than happy with my vote on him.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:49 pm

Post by armlx »

Defense for what? Having 3 votes. Like I care.

Phoebus's hypocricy, while odd, is nothing unusual. Besides the second comment about speculation being scummy. Over speculation (ie. digging for info0 != speculation (Phoebus's first post).
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:32 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Hmmm...at this moment, I'm don't really think Phoebus is a good lynch. Unless someone's playing games with my head. :(
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:37 pm

Post by Aureal »

Fuldu, while I mostly agree with the notion that trying to find out more about the role setup is scummy (I recently voted someone for doing that in another game); in that last post of Phoebus's, he didn't seem to be referring to speculation about the setup, but speculation about who's guilty or not. Comments like: "Townies, on the other hand, will be suspicious of everyone until proven innocent and know only that they are good and that they win with the good. They look at it from one perspective and no other." are actually rather offensive, making townies out to be rather stupid and short-sighted. There's no dunce cap you have to put on in order to be a townie, you're just as capable of thinking, "if I was <person> and I was scum, would what I'm doing make sense? If I was a townie? If I was <role>?" After all, isn't that what the game is about? How else would we find scum if nobody could analyze motives and actions like that? Just hope for good cop results? I bet mafia would win the vast majority of the time if that were the case. :/
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:38 am

Post by Phoebus »

Green Liquid -
Aureal hit it on the head in the preceding post.
I speculated more about the setup in general - in a sense of having info ready right away in case of a mass claim. It was an overview.
It's when people speculate more specifically about strengths of various sides and then precipitate into (which has not yet happened here) discussions of possible scenarios, that I find scummy, that I have done as scum.


Aureal -
Please tell me exactly where I said that being a townie entailed wearing a dunce cap?
It's almost exactly the opposite. I find myself most refreshed and stimulated when townie in a mini. That's why I play these more. However, as a townie, I will never speculate early on, in public, in case I'm too close to the truth and someone bumps me off. That does the town no good and also curtails my enjoyment of the game.
In my experience, a plain townie will only be really very vocal about setups, scenarios and situations after a few deaths and days, when their suspicions have crystalised and they have a reasonable judgement or logic (they feel) behind their arguments. Not early on in the game.
Early on in the game, the only people who would want to speculate would be scum, so that they appear useful and avoid suspicion/investigation.
Again, when I said townies no nothing but their own innocence, do you disagree? They might think (and may be right. On the other hand, they might not) they know someone is innocent but that is conjecture/deduction unless a cop or death confirms that. Those comments were also more specific to the current scenario - day one.
The only people with concrete information on day one are scum. Even cops can't be sure about their sanities. Lacking a night one, that's moot here, for the moment.
Then, there are tells which scum can pick up by speculating. It's a kind of sophisticated fishing early on. So yeah.

Oh and...
"if I was <person> and I was scum, would what I'm doing make sense? If I was a townie? If I was <role>?"
I'm assuming you're actually talking about having a comprehensive list of a person's tells when they are scum and when they are not.
Do you have that?
I don't have to put myself in anyone else's shoes when I'm townie. I know what's good and anything that makes sense along those lines is good. It's more about seeming to be committed to the same cause than trying to figure out whether certain actions would make sense to you as scum. And they would not be called tells if certain behaviours were not similar across the board, would they?

armlx -
Hypocrisy what now?
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:28 pm

Post by Dranko20 »

*hits head*
armlx wrote:Defense for what? Having 3 votes. Like I care. Defense for what? Having 3 votes. Like I care.
why isnt anyone else voting this man?
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