borkjerfkin Micro Normal Review

[Marquis]

if you're looking for low power to add to town, there's motion detector and vanilla cop, but I'm not sure how to describe how they fit in synergistically

[callforjudgement]

Actually, Motion Detector is about as strong as possible in this setup. Scum who are detected by it have the choice of claiming targeted, or fakeclaiming a power role. If they claim almost any power role, the Masons will counterclaim them on the basis of too much town power, and the town will win that 2v1. If they claim targeted, well who's targeting them? It's not going to be the town, as nobody's going to claim a targeted role. So it must have been the scum, but what did they target them

with

? Nothing really makes sense opposite Masons. They might get out of it, but once we're talking in terms of "might be able to claim out of a Motion Detector guilty", we know the role's doing much better than its normal useless self.

Interestingly, adding a town Vanilla Cop might make the setup more scumsided. Unless scum fakeclaim role (inadvisable in this sort of setup, and something that scum normally only do in a 9p at lylo or if they're desperate), I don't see how the role helps town at all, and the player claiming it may well be mislynched for the claim. (Also, it may end up forcing out the Masons early, which would also help scum.)

[borkjerfkin]

I think Masons not having daytalk really struggle, especially if scum does. As in, with just that and VTs against scum I'd consider it scumsided - the strength in Masons imo comes equally from being able to coordinate votes/claims/reads strategies or whatever, as much as the "get out of lynch free" card that the Mason claim inherently provides does.

sorry if that made no sense it's late

but I also think a Town RB vs 2 goons is also townsided. in the sense that even though we might often call scumsided setups balanced, the potential guilting or clearing situations a RB provides are just so... clear-cut? that like it can instantly flip a game for town or turn a slight advantage into a steamroll. idk. I don't think I've ever been comfortable seeing that available right out the gate.

You ok with 2 masons vs goons and no daytalk for anyone? That is what I am leaning toward.

[borkjerfkin]

I think the soft-confirmability of a third town PR is a bit of an issue in a 9p and it's something I didn't take into account. Not sure I feel comfortable adding a 3rd town PR and nothing else - scum would absolutely have to have something in order for anyone to believe that 2 masons + third minor PR claim that that claim isn't legit.

[borkjerfkin]

At the same time I don't think anyone can look at this vs any of the 2 PR matrix 6 setups and say that this is townsided in the least. The masons encourage scum to do nothing but keep their head down and claim VT.

Maybe I give daytalk to everyone, but does that help town?

I'm starting to think this setup is not well suited to this game size.

[borkjerfkin]

Maybe masons is the wrong way to go here.

Roleblocker + innocent child maybe. Not sure scum would need anything vs that.

[borkjerfkin]

still seems strictly worse than JK9 though

[callforjudgement]

I think 2 Masons + 5 VT versus 2 Goons is doable and close enough to balance, although it's hard to assess the balance of because it's hard to fit Masons into a game this small.

I guess you can reasonably compare it to setups like Cop + 6 VT versus 2 Goons; in that setup, the Cop confirms two players if they live until D3, in this setup we have two players who can confirm each other. The difference is that that setup leaves room for fakeclaims and counterclaims and this one doesn't really (more townsided); however, that setup also allows for the Cop to potentially confirm themself, and to potentially catch scum directly (more scumsided). This one still leaves room for PR hunting (scum benefit from killing a mason early), though, so it's not entirely dayplay.

[borkjerfkin]

ok let's do it. I'm willing to run that (with nighttalk only) if everyone is willing to sign off on that.

Obviously you can discount the roleblocker PM.

[callforjudgement]

Sure, /approve.

[Empking]

/approve

[borkjerfkin]

what do you think marquis?

[Marquis]

I'm fine with that for a 9p. /approve

[Nexus]

k will tell Radja