Fro99er's Mini Normal Review

[Fro99er]

I don't think this setup compares to that one at all, town effectively had the odd/even rolecop duo there and 3 named townies which differ quite a lot from

ExActly

Isn't 3 named townies pretty townsided? If a rolecop checks any of them they are conftown. Even worse, the mafia roles were encryptor and backup encryptor. If a rolecop checks them they hit scum. There are no town encryptors

Rolestopper, roleblocker and motion detector are not named townies. A rolecop checks them and They are not town confirmed

[Regfan]

I very strongly disagree; I think looking at the role names themselves ie. "Roleblocker / Rolecop / Rolestopper" and assuming just due to those names they're more likely to be mslynched is a bad idea and the wrong way to about reviewing here, it also ignores what happens and how massclaims are handled during the game.

Mafia have a night kill and they know which town claims are truthful or not is not a logical argument to "Mafia don't have a lot of leeway in this setup", it being a normal game doesn't mean that mafia should be expected to fake claim VT at all (How you're attempting to use that argument to differentiate Normals/Themes is ???) it merely means that there's a restricted pool of roles inside the game and mafia are able to fake claim inside that pool, the problem is with this specific division of town roles mafia won't ever get away with a fake claim. Like while the setup is 'normal', this isn't going to be a typical game in that mafia in this game will outright lose if they fake claim here; not something that's always the case at all.

I'm not assuming that town won't ever mslynch a power role, that's absolutely not what I'm saying, there's every possibility that mafia get the doc considered as a 'clear' town mslynch a PR Or two and mafia just move and win the game, this isn't

unwinnable

for mafia as a setup, I just think it's stacked too heavily against them with the sheer number of power roles inside the game where all of them are 'relevant' throughout the entirety of the game.

Like just think about it for a second, if mafia ever get down to 1 member, roleblocker & motion become very strong. I think this setup could turn very snow ball-y in the towns favour with just one thing going their way early on.

[Fro99er]

This is ridiculous

My reviewers are so far apart

[Fro99er]

Maybe I'll just scrap this

[mhsmith0]

This is ridiculous

My reviewers are so far apart

You forgot about the lurking reviewer

[Regfan]

Frogger, first off I didn't review the other setup but I'd have probably commented on disliking the sheer number of "power" in the game overall, honestly I'd have been pretty annoyed about being in that game post-game there since the sheer amount of power roles in the game (7/13) is pretty ridiculous for a game. The difference here is that none of town PR's are "Named townies", all 5 of them are relevant and can be very strong while scum having nothing.

Very much would like to hear mhsmiths thoughts, also wouldn't mind running this by Faraday since I think he's got a good grip of balance on setups like this.

[mhsmith0]

Notes/thoughts

1. I never really worry too much about scum having little room for a fake claim, and kind of think a setup that punishes it is good. The question is if towns power is so large that scum would mechanically need to fake claim and get hosed out of it due to role cops.
2. I've seen towns mislynch stronger pr claims than any of these five. Motion detector is barely going to stop a lynch, role cops could see themselves as town/ scum analogues, ditto Roleblocker and rolestopper. Really none of the claims are so strong that they'd stop a mislynch for long, and none of the claims are really capable of finding scum. So basically you have two roles that can stop a fakeclaim (and that can essentially falsely clear the scum doc since setup spec strongly suggests the role is town if real), and two roles that have reasonable odds of stopping one kill combined but are pretty unlikely to stop two (and even if they do who knows which is responsible, especially given the scum doc)
Off the cuff I'd say it's fine balance wise, but it's swingy on the survival of the scum doc in most cases.

I'll try and look up some stats on five town pr setups, but the essential utility of town power is low enough that it strikes me as overall pretty fine at first glance.

[mhsmith0]

Only true clearing role here is the motion detector, which is a nerfed tracker that really only helps when it's down to one scum.

[Regfan]

1. I never really worry too much about scum having little room for a fake claim, and kind of think a setup that punishes it is good. The question is if towns power is so large that scum would mechanically need to fake claim and get hosed out of it due to role cops.

I think fake claiming is something scum should always have a

chance

at doing, sure there's risks involved of them claiming a role in the game or their role they claim not fitting with something claimed in the game but in this game they have no chance at fake claiming and with no power themselves, that's...harsh. It's not just the rolecops that can catch them as fake claims ftr too, it's pretty much every role in the game.

2. I've seen towns mislynch stronger pr claims than any of these five. Motion detector is barely going to stop a lynch, role cops could see themselves as town/ scum analogues, ditto Roleblocker and rolestopper. Really none of the claims are so strong that they'd stop a mislynch for long, and none of the claims are really capable of finding scum. So basically you have two roles that can stop a fakeclaim (and that can essentially falsely clear the scum doc since setup spec strongly suggests the role is town if real), and two roles that have reasonable odds of stopping one kill combined but are pretty unlikely to stop two (and even if they do who knows which is responsible, especially given the scum doc)
Off the cuff I'd say it's fine balance wise, but it's swingy on the survival of the scum doc in most cases.

I'll try and look up some stats on five town pr setups, but the essential utility of town power is low enough that it strikes me as overall pretty fine at first glance.

Think you and Mastina are underestimating the power of these roles and just how much damage they can do if a mass-claim ever occurs in the game, like I said with a good start (scum lynch, VT dying) I see many scenarios where town may just win based on the roles alone which is problematic. I can see an argument for players being mslynched when run up and claiming PR but I can't see much of an argument for players being mslynched post mass-claim here anywhere near as easily and I'm not even expecting scum to have to get 4/5 mslynches inside the VT's, I think it's probable they get 1 inside the PR's at some point but that still requires them to get 3/5 of the VT's lynched to win, if one ever gets shot that's 3/4. Curious what stats you find where town have 5 PR's which are all useful to them in Mini Normals v Scum having questionably 1 otherwise 0. I worry you won't find anything like it though.

Ultimately if you're both pretty confident in this being ~balanced~ I'll pass it but also wipe my hands of anything that happens from it.

[mhsmith0]

Any massclaim scenario with a bunch of living PRs would involve scum horribly failing to kill town power at night. Site meta basically insists that scum do this successfully, because towns are REALLY stupid (and consistently so). I can do a more in depth compassion, but five low utility PRs against one scum pr that is close to a godfather given the rolecops seems friendly enough to scum for my approval. Like I said, I'll dig through some of the archives for analogues to see if my sense if off, but the setup as discussed really doesn't bother me. Town gets zero hard clears, zero hard condemns (barring fake claims), and I'd be inclined t think scum wins more than half the time w it. Again, I'll check to see if I'm wrong, but I don't especially think I am at first glance.

[Nexus]

I will accept a 2 reviewer agreement with the caveat that the 1 reviewer who disagrees doesn't get included in your "agreed for balance" line.

[Regfan]

I'm happy with that happening.

[Fro99er]

Works for me.

I'll update the motion detector role

[mhsmith0]

Give me a day or two to look into it more, I want to be sure my thoughts aren't wrong.

[Fro99er]

Ok...

[Fro99er]

if you've got thoughts still I'm happy to hear them.

[Fro99er]

Bueller?

[Regfan]

Probably best to prod mhsmith about this.

[mhsmith0]

Sorry. I'm at a business meeting today will re look at it tonight.

[Fro99er]

all good -- thank you!

[Fro99er]

In the meantime...here are updated role PMs

(Updates = 1-shot to 2-shot for the rolestopper and roleblocker, and updating the motion detector as requested)

Role PM

• You are a
  Town 2-shot Rolestopper
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • At night, you may target ONE player to Rolestop. You may use this ability up to two times in the game, and at most one time on any given night.
    
  • If successful, that player will be immune to any actions, including kills, performed on them, unless the kill is a strongman kill.
    
  • You will not be told if your Rolestop attempt succeeds.
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

---------------------------------

Role PM

• You are a
  Town 2-shot Roleblocker
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • At night, you may target ONE player to Roleblock. You may use this ability up to two times in the game, and at most one time on any given night.
    
  • If successful, that player will not be able to use any Night Actions that night.
    
  • You will not be told if your Roleblock attempt succeeds.
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

---------------------------------

Role PM

• You are a
  Town Motion Detector
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • Once per night you may target a player.
    
  • If a player uses an ability, or has an ability used on them, you will be told
    You saw motioin
    
    
  • If the player neither used an ability, nor had an ability used on them, you will be told
    You did NOT see any motion
    
    
  • If your action is blocked or fails for any reason, you will be told
    No Result
    .
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

[Fro99er]

Also updated rules to clarify the majority thing

Post 1:

RULES

(taken from

GuyInFreezer

and modified for this game)

General Rules:

1. This game was reviewed for normalcy and balance by [names].
   
   
2. Site-wide rules always apply here.
   
3. If you have a question for me, you can always PM me. If you need to talk to me in thread,
   please bold your question like this so I can see it
   
   
4. You may not use hidden or encrypted text. I decide if the text is small enough to be count as hidden text.
   
5. If you have a power to edit/delete your post, don't do it. If you scumslip, just accept it and eat rope.*
   
6. Play nice. Insulting players with using any form of racial/sexual slur or any kind of derogatory languages or excessive harassing in any way will result in immediate force-replacement.*
   
7. There will be strict adherence to the site policy about prohibiting discussion of ongoing games, which can be found here*
   
8. This means do not discuss other ongoing games in this thread AND do not discuss this game elsewhere.
   
9. Do not quote the PM that moderator sends you. Paraphrasing is fine until a certain level.
   If you're not sure about it, you're always welcome to ask me first before you post.
   *
   
10. Do not use provable randomization in this game. Saying that you rolled a dice is fine, using dice tag is not.
    
11. This is my color (Yellow). Don't use it or colors closely resembling it.
    
    
12. If I find the certain factors/actions damaging the state of the game, I will intervene and/or take action.
    
13. Keep the personal complaint, whatever they may be, outside of the wrong VC/information, private by PMing me.
    
14. If you break these rules, I have full rights to punish you at my will. This can range from simple warning to modkill/force-replace.
    
15. I will always consult a list-mod before performing any modkill.
    
16. VIOLATING THE RULES WITH A STAR (*) WILL CAUSE AN IMMEDIATE FORCE-REPLACE NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES!
    
    
17. If I feel like it, I always have a full right to add/modify the rules. If I do, I will fully explain the reason behind such action.
    
18. Most importantly, have fun!

Voting and Lynching:

1. You vote by either using bold tag([
   b]Vote: Fro99er[/b
   ]) or using vote tag ([
   vote]Fro99er[/vote
   ]) as such
   Vote: Fro99er
   or VOTE: Fro99er
   
2. Unvote is not required to change your vote. Also, if it looks like a vote for someone, I will count it. No tricking me!
   
3. A player is lynched when the majority of living players -- half players alive plus one rounded down -- vote for the same player
   
4. Once the player is lynched, the lynchee and the living players may talk until I get back and post the flip.
   
5. If the deadline is reached before the lynch has reached, the day will end with
   No Lynch
   .
   
6. If you're nightkilled, you may post one information-less "bah" post.

Activity and Deadline:

1. Deadline for each day phase is:
   10 days (240 hours)
   .
   
2. If you're on V/LA, please tell me beforehand by either posting it in thread (bolded) or PM to me.
   Any V/LA that lasts longer than 120 hours (=5 RL days, =1/2 of a game day phase) will be a force replace.
   
3. If you don't post here for
   48 real hours
   , I will prod you. Failure to receive prod within
   24 hours
   will cause force-replacement.
   
4. Three prods overall will equate to a force replace.
   
5. If you do not submit an action before the night ends, it will count as
   No Action
   .
   
6. There will be
   deadline extensions
   given in this game only upon the moderators discretion.

Sample Role PM

• You are a
  Vanilla Townie
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • You possess no special abilities other than your vote and your voice.
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

Post 2:

Game Information:

1. This game features 10

Town

aligned players and 3

Mafia

aligned players.
2. Please re-read the rules for activity and deadline. I do not use the standard 14 day, 2-3 night deadlines.

[mastina]

In the mean time, nitpicking details:

If successful, that player will not be able to use any Night Actions that night.

Would a roleblock stop a strongman? If not, then given you noted it in the rolestopper, it should be noted in the roleblocker PM as well.

If a player uses an ability, or has an ability used on them, you will be told You saw motioin

Last word is typoed; fix to 'motion'.

[Fro99er]

yeah, I mean I qualified that with "if successful"

a rolestop or roleblock would not be successful on a strongman.

[Fro99er]

oh I see what you rae saying
yeah I'll edit that into the roleblocker PM