In post 19, Regfan wrote:I don't think this setup compares to that one at all, town effectively had the odd/even rolecop duo there and 3 named townies which differ quite a lot from
ExActly
Isn't 3 named townies pretty townsided? If a rolecop checks any of them they are conftown. Even worse, the mafia roles were encryptor and backup encryptor. If a rolecop checks them they hit scum. There are no town encryptors
Rolestopper, roleblocker and motion detector are not named townies. A rolecop checks them and They are not town confirmed
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:47 pm
by Regfan
I very strongly disagree; I think looking at the role names themselves ie. "Roleblocker / Rolecop / Rolestopper" and assuming just due to those names they're more likely to be mslynched is a bad idea and the wrong way to about reviewing here, it also ignores what happens and how massclaims are handled during the game.
Mafia have a night kill and they know which town claims are truthful or not is not a logical argument to "Mafia don't have a lot of leeway in this setup", it being a normal game doesn't mean that mafia should be expected to fake claim VT at all (How you're attempting to use that argument to differentiate Normals/Themes is ???) it merely means that there's a restricted pool of roles inside the game and mafia are able to fake claim inside that pool, the problem is with this specific division of town roles mafia won't ever get away with a fake claim. Like while the setup is 'normal', this isn't going to be a typical game in that mafia in this game will outright lose if they fake claim here; not something that's always the case at all.
I'm not assuming that town won't ever mslynch a power role, that's absolutely not what I'm saying, there's every possibility that mafia get the doc considered as a 'clear' town mslynch a PR Or two and mafia just move and win the game, this isn't
unwinnable
for mafia as a setup, I just think it's stacked too heavily against them with the sheer number of power roles inside the game where all of them are 'relevant' throughout the entirety of the game.
Like just think about it for a second, if mafia ever get down to 1 member, roleblocker & motion become very strong. I think this setup could turn very snow ball-y in the towns favour with just one thing going their way early on.
Frogger, first off I didn't review the other setup but I'd have probably commented on disliking the sheer number of "power" in the game overall, honestly I'd have been pretty annoyed about being in that game post-game there since the sheer amount of power roles in the game (7/13) is pretty ridiculous for a game. The difference here is that none of town PR's are "Named townies", all 5 of them are relevant and can be very strong while scum having nothing.
Very much would like to hear mhsmiths thoughts, also wouldn't mind running this by Faraday since I think he's got a good grip of balance on setups like this.
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:06 pm
by mhsmith0
Notes/thoughts
1. I never really worry too much about scum having little room for a fake claim, and kind of think a setup that punishes it is good. The question is if towns power is so large that scum would mechanically need to fake claim and get hosed out of it due to role cops.
2. I've seen towns mislynch stronger pr claims than any of these five. Motion detector is barely going to stop a lynch, role cops could see themselves as town/ scum analogues, ditto Roleblocker and rolestopper. Really none of the claims are so strong that they'd stop a mislynch for long, and none of the claims are really capable of finding scum. So basically you have two roles that can stop a fakeclaim (and that can essentially falsely clear the scum doc since setup spec strongly suggests the role is town if real), and two roles that have reasonable odds of stopping one kill combined but are pretty unlikely to stop two (and even if they do who knows which is responsible, especially given the scum doc)
Off the cuff I'd say it's fine balance wise, but it's swingy on the survival of the scum doc in most cases.
I'll try and look up some stats on five town pr setups, but the essential utility of town power is low enough that it strikes me as overall pretty fine at first glance.
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:07 pm
by mhsmith0
Only true clearing role here is the motion detector, which is a nerfed tracker that really only helps when it's down to one scum.
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:26 pm
by Regfan
In post 31, mhsmith0 wrote:1. I never really worry too much about scum having little room for a fake claim, and kind of think a setup that punishes it is good. The question is if towns power is so large that scum would mechanically need to fake claim and get hosed out of it due to role cops.
I think fake claiming is something scum should always have a
chance
at doing, sure there's risks involved of them claiming a role in the game or their role they claim not fitting with something claimed in the game but in this game they have no chance at fake claiming and with no power themselves, that's...harsh. It's not just the rolecops that can catch them as fake claims ftr too, it's pretty much every role in the game.
In post 31, mhsmith0 wrote:2. I've seen towns mislynch stronger pr claims than any of these five. Motion detector is barely going to stop a lynch, role cops could see themselves as town/ scum analogues, ditto Roleblocker and rolestopper. Really none of the claims are so strong that they'd stop a mislynch for long, and none of the claims are really capable of finding scum. So basically you have two roles that can stop a fakeclaim (and that can essentially falsely clear the scum doc since setup spec strongly suggests the role is town if real), and two roles that have reasonable odds of stopping one kill combined but are pretty unlikely to stop two (and even if they do who knows which is responsible, especially given the scum doc)
Off the cuff I'd say it's fine balance wise, but it's swingy on the survival of the scum doc in most cases.
I'll try and look up some stats on five town pr setups, but the essential utility of town power is low enough that it strikes me as overall pretty fine at first glance.
Think you and Mastina are underestimating the power of these roles and just how much damage they can do if a mass-claim ever occurs in the game, like I said with a good start (scum lynch, VT dying) I see many scenarios where town may just win based on the roles alone which is problematic. I can see an argument for players being mslynched when run up and claiming PR but I can't see much of an argument for players being mslynched post mass-claim here anywhere near as easily and I'm not even expecting scum to have to get 4/5 mslynches inside the VT's, I think it's probable they get 1 inside the PR's at some point but that still requires them to get 3/5 of the VT's lynched to win, if one ever gets shot that's 3/4. Curious what stats you find where town have 5 PR's which are all useful to them in Mini Normals v Scum having questionably 1 otherwise 0. I worry you won't find anything like it though.
Ultimately if you're both pretty confident in this being ~balanced~ I'll pass it but also wipe my hands of anything that happens from it.
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:31 pm
by mhsmith0
Any massclaim scenario with a bunch of living PRs would involve scum horribly failing to kill town power at night. Site meta basically insists that scum do this successfully, because towns are REALLY stupid (and consistently so). I can do a more in depth compassion, but five low utility PRs against one scum pr that is close to a godfather given the rolecops seems friendly enough to scum for my approval. Like I said, I'll dig through some of the archives for analogues to see if my sense if off, but the setup as discussed really doesn't bother me. Town gets zero hard clears, zero hard condemns (barring fake claims), and I'd be inclined t think scum wins more than half the time w it. Again, I'll check to see if I'm wrong, but I don't especially think I am at first glance.
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:09 pm
by Nexus
I will accept a 2 reviewer agreement with the caveat that the 1 reviewer who disagrees doesn't get included in your "agreed for balance" line.
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:11 pm
by Regfan
I'm happy with that happening.
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:18 pm
by Fro99er
Works for me.
I'll update the motion detector role
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:19 pm
by mhsmith0
Give me a day or two to look into it more, I want to be sure my thoughts aren't wrong.
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:20 pm
by Fro99er
Ok...
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:18 am
by Fro99er
if you've got thoughts still I'm happy to hear them.
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:22 am
by Fro99er
Bueller?
Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:57 pm
by Regfan
Probably best to prod mhsmith about this.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 5:01 am
by mhsmith0
Sorry. I'm at a business meeting today will re look at it tonight.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 5:28 am
by Fro99er
all good -- thank you!
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 5:34 am
by Fro99er
In the meantime...here are updated role PMs
(Updates = 1-shot to 2-shot for the rolestopper and roleblocker, and updating the motion detector as requested)
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Post 2:
Game Information:
1. This game features 10
Town
aligned players and 3
Mafia
aligned players.
2. Please re-read the rules for activity and deadline. I do not use the standard 14 day, 2-3 night deadlines.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:34 am
by mastina
In the mean time, nitpicking details:
If successful, that player will not be able to use any Night Actions that night.
Would a roleblock stop a strongman? If not, then given you noted it in the rolestopper, it should be noted in the roleblocker PM as well.
If a player uses an ability, or has an ability used on them, you will be told You saw motioin
Last word is typoed; fix to 'motion'.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:12 am
by Fro99er
yeah, I mean I qualified that with "if successful"
a rolestop or roleblock would not be successful on a strongman.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:13 am
by Fro99er
oh I see what you rae saying
yeah I'll edit that into the roleblocker PM