James Brafin's mini normal review, August 2018

[the worst]

I don't like it as much tbh but it does still force exposure to the other teammate who makes the NK being tracked.

[Ircher]

is there much of a problem with the roleblocker shots being ninja'd?

Yes--It makes the tracker useless, and the town needs the tracker.

Another alternative might be 1-Shot Roleblocker + Mafia 2-Shot Loud Doctor + Mafia JOAT (Roleblocker, Ninja). I think I would passive that as well.

[Ircher]

Well, I could pass 2-shot ninja roleblocker actually as well. There's still a choice because they can't roleblock and kill at the same time. (Sorry, I've been trying to think this through and just thought about this interaction.)

[the worst]

That's absolutely fine, it's a (intentionally) interesting role.
I feel pretty good about all this, as long as James & SS are on board.

[Something_Smart]

You shouldn't depend on tracker to be useful in a 3-scum game.

And even two roleblock shots is a lot in a game that can literally end by N2. I don't really see the need for a roleblock (given that scum can counter PR's by killing them and town's protective power is sketchy at best) or a ninja (tracker is weak enough to not need a counter).

If you really like the ninja/roleblock idea, then I'd recommend replacing the tracker with a watcher. That might bring the game into the realm of balanced, although I might want to upgrade the watcher to some kind of weak investigative like motion detector as well.

That said, I am the secondary reviewer and you are not obligated to listen to me, but I think that most likely either the town PR's will have good reads and make scum feel like they never had a chance, or the town will eat itself alive and then complain about the lack of investigative power.

[the worst]

I'd personally have no issue throwing in a motion detector and changing the tracker to a watcher. having a higher number of less powerful inveetigatives > having a single powerful investigative imo (I hate the idea of great play being derailed by one random action - results should be earned dammit! lol)

(p.s. I'll always listen to you even if you're the secondary reviewer because your setups are great)

[the worst]

Town
Weak Babysitter
Vengeful Townie
Novice vigilante
Watcher
Motion detector
5 Vanilla

Scum
Ninja 2-shot roleblocker
2-shot loud Doctor
Goon
+ full predisclosed daytalk


Feels stacked but both teams are stacked and the prs aren't face meltingly powerful. definitely swing but I think stinginess is inherent in the concept of the setup

how does everyone feel about this?

[Ircher]

2-Shot should go at the beginning of ninja 2-shot roleblocker for clarity.

I don't think ungated watcher is a good idea. Maybe 2/3 shot or Non Consecutive Watcher would be good. Don't forget that vig and weak roles are both strong roles.

[the worst]

good point there.

though the weak can't produce a true guilty--only innos or presumed guilties(still strong tho!)

the dynamic of watcher + motion detector is pretty interesting, I actually like this a lot better than one full medium-to-strong TPR.


Town
Weak Babysitter
Vengeful Townie
Novice Vigilante
Non-Consecutive Night Watcher
Motion Detector
5 Vanilla

Scum
2-shot Ninja Roleblocker
2-shot Loud Doctor
Goon
+ full predisclosed daytalk

[Something_Smart]

Weak can't produce a hard inno with a roleblocker either. But the odds of the weak's inno being town are good enough that it's probably worth it to just treat it as such.

I think I would probably pass this. I do think 2-shot ninja roleblocker is confusing though.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how exactly ninja works with another role and I'm having trouble, actually. A 2-shot ninja roleblocker sounds like they can roleblock someone in a way that can't be seen, but it says that a ninja applies to ALL actions taken so it's weird that a scum ninja would not be able to make a ninja kill, and there's no normal precedent to have a modifier only apply to a specific action: for instance, you couldn't have a 2-shot bulletproof roleblocker that was only bulletproof when it used its roleblock. You'd have to make it a 2-shot bulletproof 2-shot roleblocker, but if you try to apply that to ninja then you end up with a 2-shot ninja 2-shot roleblocker which can either ninja or roleblock each night, since it's not multitasking. I think.

What did you INTEND for the ninja roleblocker to be able to do? Hopefully we can work out the correct name from there.

[the worst]

What did you INTEND for the ninja roleblocker to be able to do? Hopefully we can work out the correct name from there.

fmpov the intention is to nerf both the ungated ninja and the ungated roleblocker suggested in the original setup by forcing them to either make the factional kill unseeable, OR perform a roleblocking action.


Ircher is dead right in saying that the ninja modifier is passive and therefore makes the RB ninja'd as well... imo the increase in utility from having the roleblock being unseeable is okay in the realms of this setup's balance. gating the number of roleblocks and keeping them as non-multitasking is far more important for balance I think.

[the worst]

I feel like ninja 2-shot roleblocker / loud 2-shot doctor are clearer names. but that might just be the weird way my brain works.

[Something_Smart]

If the ninja can be used every night then the watcher should probably be ungated, since the scum having a full ninja ought to expect a watcher and play accordingly (and because watcher can't get innos). Ninja 2-shot roleblocker is very clear, if that's the way you want it to be.

The difference between loud 2-shot doctor and 2-shot loud doctor, I think, is that the former is also loud when they commit the mafia kill. That's a scenario that's very unlikely to come up (would require a babysitter save), but which do you want it to be?

[Ircher]

I was presuming the ninja was gated, kinda like JOAT but a little bit more flexible.

[Ircher]

It really doesn't matter for loud and the doc, but please pick one and stick with it.

[the worst]

I think

{modifier} {shot count} {role} personally - more fun if the modifiers aren't gated.

Sorry if this part of the plan wasn't clear originally.

[Ircher]

good point there.

though the weak can't produce a true guilty--only innos or presumed guilties(still strong tho!)

the dynamic of watcher + motion detector is pretty interesting, I actually like this a lot better than one full medium-to-strong TPR.


Town
Weak Babysitter
Vengeful Townie
Novice Vigilante
Non-Consecutive Night Watcher
Motion Detector
5 Vanilla

Scum
2-shot Ninja Roleblocker
2-shot Loud Doctor
Goon
+ full predisclosed daytalk

This is what I'm presuming we're passing, with the 2-shot applying to both the ninja and roleblocker; they can use the ninja twice, ninja + rb once on separate nights, or rb twice.

[the worst]

I was thinking a 2 shot roleblocker with full passive modifier (I think it's needlessly confusing otherwise).

we could do some kind of JOAT with 2 shots of each if you reckon that'd be better? in that case I'd probably make it clear that ninja isn't a **modifier** but rather an ability.

also wouldn't mind James having a read and letting us know if this still fits in with what he's thinking of.. I reckon we'll be okay tho.

[the worst]

huh just looking at the wiki

Roles which are explicitly Normal for Serial Killer only include:
Serial Killer, Ninja, Strongman, any roles listed as "for any alignment"

this doesn't sound right

[implosion]

yeah the wiki is less up-to-date than i wish it were in a couple areas. Missed that line when I edited that page.

[Ircher]

Watcher can be ungated if we do a full ninja.

[James Brafin]

Sorry, been super busy and forgot to subscribe to this topic. :p
I am very cool with the setup at this point. I agree that full roleblock and full ninja is pretty powerful.
Is there a better way to do weak babysitter that I’m not thinking about? The point of him is he’s trying to trade with scum pretty much without PGO (which I wanted). And they can conftown people, which is nice.
We could make the vig odd/even/non-consecutive to reduce swing as well.
Also got flavor ( which is not important but for posterity): Ducks with Guns.

[Something_Smart]

Is there a better way to do weak babysitter that I’m not thinking about? The point of him is he’s trying to trade with scum pretty much without PGO (which I wanted). And they can conftown people, which is nice.

I mean... weak babysitter is an investigative that also has several ways to get screwed over. It's very unlikely to trade with scum (you have to be killed the first night you target scum). If you want something that can trade with scum, I'd go for a regular babysitter, but I wouldn't have that along with vig.

Unless you mean that they soft their actions and then if they die, the scum gets outed. Then I don't see why it's not a weak something else-- even just a weak visitor if you wanted to bring back the visitor idea.

[James Brafin]

Hold up
I’m thinking under this assumption:
1) Weak Babysitter targets scum
2) Babysitter dies
3) Because Babysitter dies, their target dies, which is the scum.
Is this not right?

[James Brafin]

I mean, according to the article it doesn’t care how the babysitter dies, so long as they do die.