Noraa's Mini Normal review, January 2021

[Isis]

It is a bit guessable. I'm also not sure I tallied in the strength dead mafia backup doctor softclearing the town doctor.

If you're doing the gunsmith vig mafdoctor trinity, I don't think the modifiers on those three roles are as helpful for obfuscating the setup as trying to mess with the other elements, though.

[Gypyx]

Town Loyal Alien
Town Night 1,3 Jailkeeper
Town Backup Gunsmith
Town Novice 3-shot Vigilante
VT*6

Mafia Gunsmith
Mafia 1-shot Activated Ascetic
Mafia Goon

tried to do some messing around

[Noraa]

:O

[Isis]

I hate town enough to pass something like this, as-is, but this probably needs a nudge in the town's favor. I think ungating the JK would be enough.

[Gypyx]

in what was is it bad for town exactly?

[northsidegal]

(warning: secondary reviewer opinion alert) i think it's not exactly townsided, but

probably

still balanced enough to pass.

i'd say it's bad for town because a lot of the roles have sort of anti-synergy. there's also a lot of blocking power in the alien and the jailkeeper and pretty low investigation power in the backup gunsmith.

also, something to note is that the setup as-is has a potential NAR paradox which i'm not immediately sure of how to resolve: let's say that the alien and jailkeeper block each other, and the mafia gunsmith investigates the jailkeeper. should it get a result? i guess the same question could be asked for the vig shooting either one of them

[northsidegal]

i'd say it's bad for town because a lot of the roles have sort of anti-synergy.

let me clarify this a bit too. in a lot of normal games, if you imagine the absolute best case scenario for mechanical play from both sides, it'll typically look like a huge blowout for town with the scumteam probably getting destroyed by day 2 or day 3. this is because normal games tend to be "skewed" in favor of town, with skew defined as a balance property where one faction is able to make massive gains if they play well or get lucky, while the other faction does not have that ability. normal games almost always tend to be skewed in favor of town: one, because we don't expect players to play mechanically perfectly and so we balance around that, and two because town power roles tend to be more impactful than mafia power roles. optimal scum mechanical play typically just looks like killing the strongest PR and maybe roleblocking someone else if scum has that role, but as i said optimal town PR play is way more impactful.

this is a sort of rare example of a setup that actually seems relatively evenly skewed, or perhaps even skewed in favor of scum. of course, like i said, we don't balance around completely optimal play because that isn't unlikely to happen, but i still like to keep an eye on the skew, because even a single good shot early on in a neutral or scum-skewed game can leave town feeling like they never had a chance. (of course, a lot of scum players will complain about townsided games and the scumteam never having a chance in normal games, but again: we try to balance for average games)

[northsidegal]

now that i think about it that point about skew and the point about anti-synergy actually aren't the same thing at all so i'm not sure why i said any of that was clarifying my earlier post

anyways i still think it's passable

[Isis]

Hm.. I feel like NAR itself ought to incorporate a severability concept to resolve paradoxes like that. Like, Alien does two things, it roleblocks, and it rolestops. Once it's been raised that there is some kind of paradox, look at whether Alien is a role that can be severed into multiple components (it can). Then apply NAR logic to each of the components. Is the rolestop dependent on not getting jailkept, and is the jailkeep dependent on not getting rolestopped? The rolestop is dependent on not getting jailkept, but the jailkeep is not dependent on not getting rolestopped (the rolestop only applies to other people), therefore NAR says the jailkeep wins. The gunsmith gets to see stuff.
A similar analysis would sever the doctor off of the Jailkeeper and conclude that the vig successfully kills.

That's kind of a proposal for inventing the wheel but as far as I know this is territory that's been considered "nobody knows" ground. NAR paradoxes like this are rather rare.

I don't really want to change the setup just because of the paradox because I like the way the alien and JK function here (or dysfunction here, there is some lack of synergy in the general layout of the setup but that can be a good thing, to me, it's part of a heterogenous meta). I'd rather chance it and make some kind of ruling if it comes up. Stars have to align pretty hard for it to happen. You could maybe slightly shift the gating to make it even less likely

[Isis]

I don't think you can shift the gating in any way that helps actually. Because the JK is already acting on the night when the vigilante isn't acting.

[Isis]

I pass #26, but I want a moderator note about the double roleblock in addition to rules and role PMs. Making the wrong ruling is fine, deciding on a ruling later when it happens and involves players you've been spectating and feel biased towards is less preferable than hashing that out precisely beforehand.

[Gypyx]

doesn't jk get lower priority in NAR? at least from what i recall

[Gypyx]

and i kinda like where town's at in terms of power rn, so i could make the mafia gunsmith Odd-Night if you want

[Isis]

Do you dislike or like the current balance? I passed 26.
I don't really like the feel in such a heavily gated mafia gunsmith, I'd prefer 26.

JK and alien are both roleblocking type roles, both at "level 4". It's an ambiguous interaction.

[Gypyx]

Blocking - Roleblocker, Rolestopper, Alien
Jailkeep - Jailkeeper

order of priority from the normal NAR wiki page

and i like where the current balance is at, but i've seen y'all express concern so...

[Isis]

I didn't know there's a separate NAR page just for normal games. I was using the general NAR page.

I don't really understand why it would be set up that way when a jailkeeper is just a Combined Roleblocker Doctor with flavor but, yeah, just go with that I guess.

[Gypyx]

yeah, agree that it's kinda weird, but at least it gives us our answers

so, role PMs time?

[Isis]

Yes, role PM, results PMs, and rules. Noraa PMed me a draft of her rules (but I didn't review them, she just wanted help with BBCode), so she's not offloading that part on you, if that wasn't clear yet

[Gypyx]

i know that, just making sure

[Gypyx]

'ight so i'm the one making role PMs

Welcome,

player

. You are

Town Loyal Alien

.

Abilities:

• Each night, you may alien someone, roleblocking them and preventing all actions targeting them to fail, this will only work on players of the same alignement as yoj

Win condition:

• You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated. yadda yadda.

Game thread is here. Please confirm by telling me your alignment and role. Clarify all questions you might have before it's too late

Welcome,

player

. You are

Town Night 1,3 Jailkeeper

.

Abilities:

• On night 1 and 3, you may jailkeep someone, roleblocking them and protecting them from kills

Win condition:

• You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated. yadda yadda.

Game thread is here. Please confirm by telling me your alignment and role. Clarify all questions you might have before it's too late

Welcome,

player

. You are

Town Backup Gunsmith

.

Abilities:

• If a gunsmith dies, you become able to each night, check if someone has a gun in flavor

Win condition:

• You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated. yadda yadda.

Game thread is here. Please confirm by telling me your alignment and role. Clarify all questions you might have before it's too late

Welcome,

player

. You are

Town Novice 3-Shot Vigilante

.

Abilities:

• 3 times during the game, on any night other than night 1, you may kill someone

Win condition:

• You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated. yadda yadda.

Game thread is here. Please confirm by telling me your alignment and role. Clarify all questions you might have before it's too late

Welcome,

Player

. You are

Vanilla Town

.

Win condition:

• You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated. yadda yadda.

Game thread is here. Please confirm by telling me your alignment and role. Clarify all questions you might have before it's too late

[/quote]

Welcome,

Player

. You are

Mafia Goon

.

Abilities:

• You have a factional nightkill.
• You may talk with your partners, Player and Player in the scum PT here.

Win condition:

• You win when the mafia wipes out the town or nothing can prevent this

Game thread is here. Please confirm by telling me your alignment and role. Clarify all questions you might have before it's too late

Welcome,

Player

. You are

Mafia Gunsmith

.

Abilities:

• You may each night check if someone posesses a gun in flavor
• You have a factional nightkill.
• You may talk with your partners, Player and Player in the scum PT here.

Win condition:

• You win when the mafia wipes out the town or nothing can prevent this

Game thread is here. Please confirm by telling me your alignment and role. Clarify all questions you might have before it's too late

Welcome,

Player

. You are

Mafia 1-shot Activated Ascetic

.

Abilities:

• You may once during the game make yourself untargetable by non-killing actions for a night
• You have a factional nightkill.
• You may talk with your partners, Player and Player in the scum PT here.

Win condition:

• You win when the mafia wipes out the town or nothing can prevent this

Game thread is here. Please confirm by telling me your alignment and role. Clarify all questions you might have before it's too late

gunsmith feedback

[TARGET] has a gun

[TARGET] doesn't have a gun

you didn't receive any results, your action failed



this role PM format is pain

[Noraa]

I feel like ur in the wrong thread O_O

[Noraa]

but shank you gypyx <333333333
u da best! I'll get u a dragon called Jeff soon!

[Gypyx]

wdym

[Noraa]

don't role pms go in the mod pt O_o

[Gypyx]

YAY THANK U

i'm taking back the insults at threw at you during the alt hunt < 3

pedit : yeah but isis gotta approve those

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