Mafiascum.net

so alright ummm, first thoughts, that quite a lot of cops you got there actually all things considered, plus the vig on top of that, i agree that the problem is swing there lol

i think most of the time, you could expect something like the vig to shoot his 2 bullets, 1 fake guilty and 1 real guilty out of this setup, and if like we have 2 roles out of 4 that are belived as towny, pretty sure that makes this setup go in the townisded

maybe reduce the quantity of stuff running around? Not sure if i have any part that's bugging me individually, it's more of a whole

hm. while i do like the idea of the setup, the neighbourizer that can guilty the traitor is bugging me more and more. i'll look over this today, probably get rid of it, and change the setup around while still keeping the main idea there.

1x town combined friendly neighbour hider
1x town novice 2-shot vigilante
1x town n1 psychologist
1x town tracker
6x vt

1x mafia 2-shot jailkeeper traitor enabler
1x mafia traitor enabler
1x mafia traitor encryptor

this should be a little less... insane i guess?

seems pretty cool to me

A traitor who can only become mafia after both the other mafia dies is another thing that honestly feels like it goes against the spirit of the game--the town when they see a 'traitor enabler' flip will, presumably, be able to figure out that a traitor can become factional mafia...

...But they will be hunting for the traitor the moment one scum flips, thinking the traitor was recruited, because it's NOT reasonable to expect TWO traitor enablers imo.

So to me, while the setup might be okay balance-wise, Normalcy-wise, though it has the technical go-ahead from implosion on a traitor enabler, I'm not comfortable passing it because it feels like it's too much of a violation of what's expected to be Normal, even if it's allowed.

Sorry.

that's not how enabler is defined, though? the sample role pm's from the enabler wiki page say:

"When you die, the role "Jailkeeper" will cease to function for all players."
"When you die, the role "Ascetic" will cease to function for all players."

according to this, the traitor will become a factional mafia when the first enabler dies, not when the last one dies.

oh yeah right, that's a double enabler situation too lol

In post 30, Datisi wrote:according to this, the traitor will become a factional mafia when the first enabler dies, not when the last one dies.

I'm certain that when there's multiple enablers for a role, the role is enabled until all enablers die.

It's rare because the interaction is incredibly infrequent (nobody puts two enablers for the same role in a game), but the last time I saw multiple enablers (in that case, multiple daytalk enablers), the enabled effect lasted until all died. (Granted, this was back in the day of the graylist, butstill.)

And from a logical stance, that makes sense. If there's more than one enabler for a role and one enabler dies, the other enabler is still enabling that role. It makes more sense for the role to be enabled until there's no way for it to be enabled.

The sample role PMs are written for a single enabler being in the game; they were not written to account for multiple enablers in a game (again, because basically nobody puts two enablers for the same role in a game). But I'm fairly certain that a role functions until enablers for it die.

I think Datisi is right about how the role currently formally functions and that the issue is "enabler" is actually a misleading name. The phrasing of the normality section for enabler on the wiki implies this as well.

while i understand that it makes logical sense that "as long as any enabler is alive, the role is functional", enabler simply isn't defined like that. i could even agree that that's how it was *intended* to function, and nobody thought to define it correctly because nobody thought someone would be sadistic enough to the nrg to put two enablers of the same role into the same game, but. yeah.

maybe i'm wrong about how it was intended to function, my knowledge of the history of normal games isn't great, but you get my point.

well, to be fair, that also sounds like the logical stuff to me, for instance, you could say that milk and frosties are 2 enablers for you to make cereals, and if one goes, well those milk-only cereals are gonna taste bad

bad analogy ik

while we wait for mastina, i'm not sure if gunsmith > psychologist is a change that i want, since the "here's a clear... oh shit there's a traitor in the game, nvm on the clear" interaction can't really play out then. so, my attempt to shove a gunsmith back into the setup is:

1x town combined friendly neighbour hider
1x town novice 2-shot vigilante
1x town n1 gunsmith
1x town combined tracker bodyguard
6x vt

1x mafia 2-shot jailkeeper traitor enabler
1x mafia 1-shot strongman traitor enabler
1x mafia bulletproof traitor encryptor

a town combined tracker bodyguard is such a troll role. heh.

this setup feels a bit townsided, since fn + vig + gunsmith is getting close to too many clears potentially, and we'd need figure out the interactions between strongman/hider, bodyguard/bulletproof, bodyguard/strongman (since off the top of my head, i can't say i know for sure how they interact), but. i kinda like it, so if it's too much in some direction, i'd want to try to figure it out from here.

first thought is to remove the two-shot from the mafia jailkeeper, or to make it multitasking, or both.

Traitor shows as innocent to psychologist though?

actually that's a good question, i don't think the enabler is taken into effect right

also, are you really attached to the combined tracker bodyguard ?

In post 38, Gypyx wrote:Traitor shows as innocent to psychologist though?

actually that's a good question, i don't think the enabler is taken into effect right

he does, but a clear from a psychologist is a much softer clear than from a gunsmith. you generally wouldn't consider a person hardtown if you got a n1 psych clear on them

In post 39, Gypyx wrote:also, are you really attached to the combined tracker bodyguard ?

yes, but i could maybe make it work without it, idk

fair then

not sure how the setup feels for balance yet (didn't think too hard about it) but mafia strongmaning their bulletproof seems like a pretty shit interaction possible tbh

counterpoint: it's hilarious

also traitor should like, crumb traitor and stuff. if the mafia is so dysfunctional that they not only shoot their own traitor, but strongman him... how is that my fault?

Balance-wise I would indeed say the setup is townsided because the town roles are all actually incredibly strong here especially into the scumteam--the scum DO have answers, but on that note, I'd just like to say:

Fun-wise, the setup is basically guaranteed to be a zero-fun game. Regardless of town doing well vs. poorly or scum doing well vs. poorly, I don't see the game generated from that setup being any fun to any alignment. If the scum can't negate the town PRs then they're going to be left feeling pretty shitty but if the scum DO negate the town PRs then the town is going to feel pretty shitty and even in those scenarios, there's a fairly good chance that the alignment who got the advantage still isn't really having fun.

The roles all , so individually, there's no issue with them. But the sum of the parts creates a setup that just feels like the only person having fun would be the mod.

Again, not mandatory for balance, so the unfun setup be passed--but even on the balance threshold, I'm inclined to think townsided overall. Not to mention, swingy as fuck.

one day, someone will recognize my artistic genius /s

1x town novice 2-shot vigilante
1x town indecisive doctor
1x town announcing rolecop
1x town n1 psychologist n2 detective
6x vt

1x mafia 2-shot gunsmith
1x mafia goon
1x mafia encryptor

how about something like this? i wanted to play up the town vig / town gunsmith / mafia doctor dynamic.

That setup's definitely not townsided, I'll say that much. It be potentially ever so scumsided, but I don't think it's by an obscenely large amount if so. (The gunsmith can find the town PRs really well and is a good safeclaim, but the town roles are decently strong without being overwhelmingly strong, keeping swing fairly low.)

I'd say it's either balanced or within 2.5% of the balance. (As in, either 50-50 or 47.5-52.5, which is still passable range.)

after posting the setup, i started thinking it was townsided, but alright. if gypyx doesn't have any problems with the setup, i'll write up role pm's and results later today.

apologies in advance to whoever rands n1 psychologist n2 detective, that role pm is a hot mess.

just to make sure, since the psychologist's wiki page doesn't make it explicit like the detective's does - if a psych scans a player who attempted to kill someone, but the kill failed, psych still gets a negative, right?

Same as detective i assume

also yeah, that sound decent, rolecop sounds maybe a bit strong but it depends on how town interpetes it

bleh, i forgot the "you were targeted by a rolecop during the night." for the rolecop's targets. anyway.