We also need result pms for the cop, tracker, and watcher.
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:10 am
by Greeting
In post 24, Ircher wrote:Rule 6 under Miscellaneous (about day talk) should go under game-specific information. Also, your ruleset is very long. You may want to consider having a summary of the essential points somewhere as people don't tend to read long rulesets. Most experienced players skim or skip everything that isn't a setup-specific rule. Another option would be bolding your more unusual or important rules.
You are right, 6. from Miscellaneous should go there.
As for the ruleset being too long, I say
ignorantia juris non excusat
. I can agree that they're longer than most rulesets I've seen, but I don't see any room for slimming them down. I could try to rephrase what has already been said in a shorter way and bold the most important rules.
I can change the order and put "Game-specific information" above "General rules" too.
In post 24, Ircher wrote:This is minor, but in the town's win condition, it should read "You win when there
are
no more mafia..."
Noted.
In post 24, Ircher wrote:For the tracker pm, the role name should read as "Town N1 N2 N3 Tracker". The role should flip as such as well. I would delete "only" from the sentence that mentions the night phases in the tracker pm.
Noted.
In post 24, Ircher wrote:I think you are a bit confused about how a neighborizer works. I'm a bit short on time rn, so I'll clarify later. Alternatively, you can look at the wiki page for neighborizer.
I'll wait for you to clarify what you mean.
In post 24, Ircher wrote:Technically speaking, mafia have to have a member alive to win in normals. (Your current win condition doesn't reflect this.) This is less of a concern though in a mini where the only time that may not be the case is with a vig, but it's good to not inadvertently give away info about the setup.
It is mechanically impossible for there to be no players left in the game, but if you think that's important to not give that out then I'll make sure to include this.
In post 24, Ircher wrote:In the mailman role pm: "The player will also be allowed to quote the contents of the message directly into the game thread." --> Please delete this. This is too risky for game integrity purposes. You can probably allow copy-paste but not quoting.
Noted.
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:22 am
by Greeting
Town Cop Night x result:
(Roleblocked)
Town Tracker Night x result:
(Roleblocked)
Mafia Watcher Night x result:
(Roleblocked - it is technically possible to happen)
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:47 am
by Ircher
Okay, a neighborizer in a normal game has the following characteristics:
1) They start with no others in their neighborhood.
2) They can add a player to their neighborhood each night. Players added after the first are added to the same neighborhood not a different one.
3) The neighborizer action doesn't fail if the player is killed.
Your description is quite a bit different. If you want a neighborizer to only recruit one player, you would have to make it one shot. Unfortunately, there is not a way in normal games to refund shots if their action fails. If you want the target player to specifically know who neighborized them, that's not exactly normal either, but you can come pretty close by making the neighborizer loud. (They would receive a separate message that X targeted them last night in addition to the standard "You have been invited to a neighborhood" message. If you go that route, make sure the two messages are sent separately and not as a combined message.)
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:57 am
by Greeting
In post 28, Ircher wrote:Okay, a neighborizer in a normal game has the following characteristics:
1) They start with no others in their neighborhood.
2) They can add a player to their neighborhood each night. Players added after the first are added to the same neighborhood not a different one.
3) The neighborizer action doesn't fail if the player is killed.
Your description is quite a bit different. If you want a neighborizer to only recruit one player, you would have to make it one shot. Unfortunately, there is not a way in normal games to refund shots if their action fails. If you want the target player to specifically know who neighborized them, that's not exactly normal either, but you can come pretty close by making the neighborizer loud. (They would receive a separate message that X targeted them last night in addition to the standard "You have been invited to a neighborhood" message. If you go that route, make sure the two messages are sent separately and not as a combined message.)
I understand. Would a one-shot Neighborizer
without
refunds be okay then?
And it kinda makes no sense to not let know the neighborized know who targeted them. I mean, they will get a PT link and by clicking on it, they will know who's in there. If there's just two players in the Neighbourhood, then it's kinda obvious to both parties whom is the Neighborizer and whom is the neighborized.
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:01 am
by Greeting
Note to myself:
Correct 2. from section "Private Threads" - change "Game-specific rules and information" to "General rules".
In post 28, Ircher wrote:Okay, a neighborizer in a normal game has the following characteristics:
1) They start with no others in their neighborhood.
2) They can add a player to their neighborhood each night. Players added after the first are added to the same neighborhood not a different one.
3) The neighborizer action doesn't fail if the player is killed.
Your description is quite a bit different. If you want a neighborizer to only recruit one player, you would have to make it one shot. Unfortunately, there is not a way in normal games to refund shots if their action fails. If you want the target player to specifically know who neighborized them, that's not exactly normal either, but you can come pretty close by making the neighborizer loud. (They would receive a separate message that X targeted them last night in addition to the standard "You have been invited to a neighborhood" message. If you go that route, make sure the two messages are sent separately and not as a combined message.)
I understand. Would a one-shot Neighborizer
without
refunds be okay then?
And it kinda makes no sense to not let know the neighborized know who targeted them. I mean, they will get a PT link and by clicking on it, they will know who's in there. If there's just two players in the Neighbourhood, then it's kinda obvious to both parties whom is the Neighborizer and whom is the neighborized.
@mastina?
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:32 am
by mastina
1x Neighborizer is fine for balance imo. It already exists as a bit of an extra role to bolster the town's strength without making them overpowered, so gating it does not impact its strengths.
Can you do another, updated, post of:
-Roles
-Results
-Rules
So that I can give the updated versions a look?
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:55 am
by Greeting
Mini Normal x setup
Game size
13 players
Town faction
10 town-aligned players
2 town-aligned players will have strong town PRs
2 town-aligned players will have soft town PRs
6 town-aligned players will be VTs
Strong town PRs: Town Cop, Town N1/N2/N3 Tracker
Soft town PRs: Town Neighborizer (one-shot), Town Friendly Neighbor
Mafia faction
3 mafia-aligned players
2 mafia-aligned players will have strong mafia PRs
1 mafia-aligned player will have a soft mafia PR
Welcome to Mini Normal x! The theme of this game will be the biggest music hits of the year 2012.
Carly Rae Jepsen - Call Me Maybe
I swear, this song,
is
2012. Every radio station in my country played it in summer. Everyone was so shook at the end of the music video too!
Spoiler: Alive players
Player
Spoiler: Dead players
Playerinne
, a
Vanilla Townie
, voted out Day 1.
Spoiler: Modkilled players
This is a list you don't want to be on.
Post #2:
Rules
Game-specific information:
General rules:
Voting and activity:
Private Threads:
Miscellaneous:
Town Role PMs
Mafia Role PMs
Possible Night Action Results for investigative roles
Town Cop Night x result:
(Roleblocked)
Town N1/N2/N3 Tracker Night x result:
(Roleblocked)
Mafia Watcher Night x result:
(Roleblocked - it is technically possible to happen)
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:01 am
by Greeting
Summary of changes:
- updated role names of Tracker and Neighborizer;
- updated the Mafia Mailman role;
- updated the Town Tracker role (by removing "only" per Ircher's suggestion);
- updated the Town Neighborizer (one-shot) role;
- updated mafia winning condition;
- made a few changes to the rules (not the content, but deleted a few points and merged them with others), bolded the most important ones;
- changed the order - "Game-specific information" went above "General rules";
- changed 2. of "Private Threads" accordingly to 30.
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:13 am
by Greeting
Possible Night Action related PMs from the remaining PRs
Town Neighborizer (one-shot):
(for the Neighborizer)
(for the neighborized)
(if Roleblocked)
Town Friendly Neighbor:
(for the Friendly Neighbor target)
(if Roleblocked, nothing happens)
Mafia Mailman:
(if Roleblocked, nothing happens)
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:24 pm
by implosion
Turns out that all the mods up to you are actually unavailable right now, so this will enter signups once it's ready.
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:02 pm
by Greeting
Awesome!
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:22 am
by Ircher
The neighborizer should not be directly informed if their action fails (though they can certainly infer as much), but everything else looks fine to me.
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:18 am
by Greeting
In post 38, Ircher wrote:The neighborizer should not be directly informed if their action fails (though they can certainly infer as much), but everything else looks fine to me.
Why?
I will remove it, but I’d like you to elaborate on why that is.
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:40 am
by Ircher
It's the way things are on this site. Roles generally aren't informed their action failed unless they specifically get a result of some sort. Like for the neighborizer, sure, they'll know something is up when the person they targeted isn't in the neighborhood, but it's up to them to make that deduction. You risk accidentally giving away information you shouldn't. (To be clear here, I'm not saying this is usually the case or necessarily the case here, but it can happen.)
Also, for normal games, it is important that things like action resolution is standardized. This ensures a consistent set of expectations from players. As already mentioned, the current standard is that neighborizers don't get notified if their action fails. Deviating from the established standards can influence the way players perceive the setup and the deductions they make about it.
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:39 am
by Greeting
In post 40, Ircher wrote:It's the way things are on this site. Roles generally aren't informed their action failed unless they specifically get a result of some sort. Like for the neighborizer, sure, they'll know something is up when the person they targeted isn't in the neighborhood, but it's up to them to make that deduction. You risk accidentally giving away information you shouldn't. (To be clear here, I'm not saying this is usually the case or necessarily the case here, but it can happen.)
Also, for normal games, it is important that things like action resolution is standardized. This ensures a consistent set of expectations from players. As already mentioned, the current standard is that neighborizers don't get notified if their action fails. Deviating from the established standards can influence the way players perceive the setup and the deductions they make about it.
Alright, thanks. Although I privately would rather give out that information as I don't think there's much harm done and, as a player, would appreciate the clarity, I can accept that this is a Normal and should bend more towards what is generally expected. Hopefully, I'll be allowed more freedom in the Mini Theme queue in the future.
Town Neighborizer (one-shot) will not receive any information upon being Roleblocked.
@mastina waiting for your
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:47 am
by Greeting
Flips
Day x result
It is now Night x. It will last until (timer).
Night x result
It is now Day x. It will last until (timer).
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:03 pm
by mastina
You are a Town Neighborizer (one-shot).
Speaking of site standards, the site standard format for this would be modifier first, outside of parentheses:
Town One-Shot Neighborizer.
Make that change to that role and you're good to go.
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:16 am
by implosion
Thanks. That's simple enough that I'm calling this passed and officially putting it in signups.
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:56 pm
by Greeting
Thank you, both mastina and Ircher for your help!
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:40 pm
by Greeting
Just letting you know that 2. in "Voting and activity" will be amended to make sure it does not come in conflict with the site rules.
Here is how it looks like now:
Discussing replacements is allowed unless it is explicitly stated by me that it’s not.
Here is the new version:
Discussing replacements is allowed only after they happen. It is not allowed to discuss any possible future replacements, to threaten to replace or ask another player to replace out.
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 3:48 am
by Greeting
Upon deeper consideration, I will remove the rules on "bah!" posts. Given that this is my prerogative as mod, I have decided against allowing these after all.
That means that 8a. from "General rules" will be removed.
Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:19 pm
by mastina
Hey, so I am reading the game, and the players keep mentioning that they can't get the mod to clarify the difference between a mailman message and a friendly neighbor message.
But, per NRG standards, the two are in fact completely different.
Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:25 pm
by mastina
In post 48, mastina wrote:Hey, so I am reading the game, and the players keep mentioning that they can't get the mod to clarify the difference between a mailman message and a friendly neighbor message.
But, per NRG standards, the two are in fact completely different.
As in, they should know and be informed that the fn is unambiguously a fn, not a messenger, and vice versa, too.
If they are confused, and ask for clarity, it should be given.