Newbie 1310: A WILD CHARIZARD APPEARED! - GAME OVER

[TraceyLyn11]

VOTE COUNT 2.1

[L-5] Dyrynify:

[L-5] Xegarus:

[L-5] em+p_dear:

[L-5] Om:

[L-4] kitiekatt: Nachomamma8

[L-5] CF Riot:

[L-5] Smashbard:

[L-5] Nachomamma8:

Not Voting:

7 (Dyrynify, Xegarus, em+p_dear, Om, kitiekatt, CF Riot, Smashbard)

• With eight alive, it takes five to lynch.
  
• Day Two's deadline: January 18, 2013 CST or in (expired on 2013-01-18 01:10:00).
  
• V/LA: No one.

[Dyrynify]

I said I want to know, not that it was the best plan right this second.

[Om]

Vote:Nacho

[Dyrynify]

Vote:Nacho

Gonna give a reason there?

[Dyrynify]

Vote:Nacho

Gonna give a reason there?

[Smashbard]

There is no reason I can think of. Even in a set up that allows for someone to potentially watch their night action, it is still a kill. If I am wrong, someone tell me, but we seem to have a protective role. Now, I just want to know who it was, and who was protected. That would give us a leg up on the suspect.

How would this give us a leg up on the suspect?

The only reason I could imagine you would jump right out of the gate with wanting answers as to why we were lucky enough to not suffer a nightkill tells me you're frustrated scum. Which is shocking to me, because you were so pro-town yesterday. Maybe you jumping on Xegar & CF Riot was just grasping at straws after all?

Vote: Dyrnify

Please, tell me how knowing who was protected will help us figure out who actually did the kill?

Do you have reason to believe a Jailkeeper exists?

[CF Riot]

Dyr was so not protown yesterday and I have a hard-on for that wagon cause he's fishing so hard today but the one thing holding me back is the hammer. Assume town Brad announcing intent to hammer, does scum Dyr throw it down first or would he just stay off the mislynch and let Brad finish it off? I don't know him at all but purely from this being a newbie game I don't see him having the foresight to try to gain towncred by being

on

a mislynch wagon.

[Dyrynify]

There is no reason I can think of. Even in a set up that allows for someone to potentially watch their night action, it is still a kill. If I am wrong, someone tell me, but we seem to have a protective role. Now, I just want to know who it was, and who was protected. That would give us a leg up on the suspect.

How would this give us a leg up on the suspect?

The only reason I could imagine you would jump right out of the gate with wanting answers as to why we were lucky enough to not suffer a nightkill tells me you're frustrated scum. Which is shocking to me, because you were so pro-town yesterday. Maybe you jumping on Xegar & CF Riot was just grasping at straws after all?

Vote: Dyrnify

Please, tell me how knowing who was protected will help us figure out who actually did the kill?

Do you have reason to believe a Jailkeeper exists?

Easy. This only went one of two ways, to my way of thinking; either someone Doctored the kill target, or someone Jailed the killer. Either way, a roleclaim provides valuable info.

Let's look at the doctor scenario. If it was a doc, they protected the scum target. meaning they protected someone who really ticked of the scum yesterday, enough to want to kill soon. I won't speculate on who that might me, I am still backreading and assessing my reads. But, that is irrelevant. If we know the target, we can begin the investigation with the person they butted heads with the most yesterday. It is not perfect, but a good place to start.

Now, the Jailkeeper roughly the same, but with differences. If the jailor chose to target a scummy player, then they got lucky and prevented the kill. If they instead decided to protect town, they got lucky and blocked the kill. Either way, a RC from a jailkeeper, along with who they targeted, gives us a good point to go on as well.

Now, as for the jailkeeper/doctor question, I don't really know which it is. But there is one, I am sure. Even newbie scum knows to attack every single night. Not doing so is so foolish as to be downright stupid. I mean, it is the whole point of the game, if you are scum. Not killing as scum is like no-lynching on day one; a really dumb idea.

[Om]

But what you're suggesting is basically ''sacrifice our PR'' for something super WIFOM. Which is going to be useless trade.

[Dyrynify]

Again, not suggesting we do it. It is a dangerous plan with only short term gains. I don't want it to happen. I was asked a question on how it would work, and answered.

So, once more, lets say this big and loud:

I DON'T WANT OR EXPECT TO SEE A RC ON THIS. IT WOULD BE STUPID. I DO WANT TO KNOW, BUT NOT AT THE TOWNS EXPENSE. I AM SIMPLY ANSWERING A QUESTION, NOT ADVOCATING A COURSE OF ACTION.

[Om]

Who do you think is scum Dry?

[Dyrynify]

I won't speculate on who that might me, I am still backreading and assessing my reads.

Still reading, trying assess things a little.

[em+p_dear]

No night kill? Huh. So the only combination that can be ruled out is the one with only the sane cop (assuming the scum made a kill which is just common sense)?
I'll admit, this changes my views from day one. Wasn't quite sure of what to think originally of kitty and Doc. I thought I saw a sort of "mutual disinterest" in the two of them, and I kind of saw it as a "If _____ is scum, then _____ may be too" but with Doc being town, I'm not sure.

Also, dyr was really the only one I had for "100% town reads" but now, I'm not so sure.
Assuming we do have a protective role on our hands here, the kill that didn't happen would have been either a) a random kill or b) someone who angered the mafia. Since he seems to be pretty sure about option B, the only one I can think of that would have a grudge on a specific town at this point would be Dyr x Xeg. Everyone else seems to have multiple targets or suspicion, but it seems like he only targetted Xeg as mafia, even after Xeg stepped down saying he didn't believe his own accusation against Dyr. Also, wanting to know who did what last night without having any rc is natural- I think every pro-town feels that way, but in this case it seems more like wanting to know who to target next. Maybe it's because I'm looking for things, I don't know. But it does seem strange somehow.

@nacho

-just curious, but why me?

[kitiekatt]

Hey Om, my reads from day 1 are not the same as they are now. I was thinking Xegar/Doc as top two scum, but I'll tell you, if I sounded wishy-washy day 1 it's cause I didn't have a strong scum read on either of them (and obviously my scum-dar needs to be recalibrated since Doc wasn't a good read). Your (Om) post #200:

His RC (which is not pro-town but not a scum motivated either, hence a bad reason) and his overall reaction filled with semi admittance of genuine mistake and semi defensive arguments when pointed out why RC is a bad idea is a good town tell for me.
Plus;
He immediately called out our IC, usually scum's are very happy to have laid back IC when they commit mistakes, specially considering the situation he was in and his apparent inexperience, that's town+ tell for me.
34
This one was good.

I still don't like how he followed CF to jump on Bard, but it's not scum motivated either, no reason for scum to stick their already troubled neck out in the open. To my surprise; it seems to have worked though.
That only further solidifies him as my top town read.

Do you still find him scummy? Yes, why?

helped me realize that I was giving Doc a lot of excuses for the scum things he was doing as newbie moves. But Xeg's moves all looked like newbie moves too, so why wasn't I giving him the same excuses? After reading that post I went MIA and was going to come in and unvote then the hammer happened and it became moot. Giving Xeg the same benefit of the doubt for similar newbie moves makes even more sense to me now that we know Doc was town. So in short, I'm not getting a scum read on Xegar anymore, and of course not Doc.

However, there are a few things that are disconcerting to me about other people.

CF: I don't know if it's just the playstyle that gets me or what.

Nah.

You can explain why you think I'm town though.

This post really gets to me. Flat out refusing to even try to explain a vote after being asked directly. I'm not the best communicator here apparently but at least I'm trying to explain my reads.

@CF, what was the reasoning for just not explaining yourself? Was this a quiet pressure thing like what Xegar was trying to do?

Also, Em hasn't said a lot at all, which concerns me. I was more concerned after she said she came back and made an "I'm back" post, but then didn't say anything else, but we know she was on the forum cause she jumped right in when twilight happened. I see the substance post just made, which makes me feel a little better.

@Em, when you say "mutual disinterest" about the Doc and I, do you mean that you were thinking we were disinterested in each other? Or do you mean you thought we were paired up? Also, can you bring it together for me, is Dyr suspicious to you now? Or are you just listing things he did? Also, are you saying Xeg may have a grudge against Dyr or the other way around or both towards each other?

[em+p_dear]

Ah. Yeah I guess I really didn't post much. To be honest, I wasn't really sure of enough of anything anyway. Pretty much everyone looked either scummy, or unidentifiable. Didn't see town or scum in nacho or om. Still don't. (will finish up later but for now I'm going to dinner).

[Nachomamma8]

The only reason I could imagine you would jump right out of the gate with wanting answers as to why we were lucky enough to not suffer a nightkill tells me you're frustrated scum. Which is shocking to me, because you were so pro-town yesterday. Maybe you jumping on Xegar & CF Riot was just grasping at straws after all?

What do you think of em+p doing the same? Her and dyr are scumbuddies, then?

@nacho-just curious, but why me?

Why wouldn't I suspect you today?

kitiekatt, who is your strongest scumread today?

[CF Riot]

@CF, what was the reasoning for just not explaining yourself? Was this a quiet pressure thing like what Xegar was trying to do?

I figured Doc was scum and I don't feel the need to explain myself to scum.

[em+p_dear]

(cont.) As for CF, I didn't and still don't have a clue. My gut is saying town but no evidence to base that claim on.

I saw you & doc were both very quiet at the beginning. Then you both jumped on Xeg at about the same time. I suspected the two of you working together, but since Doc was town anyway, I was probably just wrong about the whole thing.


In short? Yes, I am suspecting Dyr, not enough to place a vote yet though. I think I'll wait and see what happens with everyone today.

[Smashbard]

Dyr was so not protown yesterday and I have a hard-on for that wagon cause he's fishing so hard today but the one thing holding me back is the hammer. Assume town Brad announcing intent to hammer, does scum Dyr throw it down first or would he just stay off the mislynch and let Brad finish it off? I don't know him at all but purely from this being a newbie game I don't see him having the foresight to try to gain towncred by being

on

a mislynch wagon.

Well damn. Yeah, if Dyrnify was scum he would of just let me hammer. I'm pretty sure even new scum would recognize that as ideal strategy. Because new scum are going to be overly cautious to begin with to make sure they don't attract much attention.

Unvote.

There is no reason I can think of. Even in a set up that allows for someone to potentially watch their night action, it is still a kill. If I am wrong, someone tell me, but we seem to have a protective role. Now, I just want to know who it was, and who was protected. That would give us a leg up on the suspect.

How would this give us a leg up on the suspect?

The only reason I could imagine you would jump right out of the gate with wanting answers as to why we were lucky enough to not suffer a nightkill tells me you're frustrated scum. Which is shocking to me, because you were so pro-town yesterday. Maybe you jumping on Xegar & CF Riot was just grasping at straws after all?

Vote: Dyrnify

Please, tell me how knowing who was protected will help us figure out who actually did the kill?

Do you have reason to believe a Jailkeeper exists?

Let's look at the doctor scenario. If it was a doc, they protected the scum target. meaning they protected someone who really ticked of the scum yesterday, enough to want to kill soon. I won't speculate on who that might me, I am still backreading and assessing my reads. But, that is irrelevant. If we know the target, we can begin the investigation with the person they butted heads with the most yesterday. It is not perfect, but a good place to start.

Now, the Jailkeeper roughly the same, but with differences. If the jailor chose to target a scummy player, then they got lucky and prevented the kill. If they instead decided to protect town, they got lucky and blocked the kill. Either way, a RC from a jailkeeper, along with who they targeted, gives us a good point to go on as well.

Again, not suggesting we do it. It is a dangerous plan with only short term gains. I don't want it to happen. I was asked a question on how it would work, and answered.

So, once more, lets say this big and loud:

I DON'T WANT OR EXPECT TO SEE A RC ON THIS. IT WOULD BE STUPID. I DO WANT TO KNOW, BUT NOT AT THE TOWNS EXPENSE. I AM SIMPLY ANSWERING A QUESTION, NOT ADVOCATING A COURSE OF ACTION.

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on defending your reasoning for wanting a roleclaim for someone who claims that they in fact, do not want a roleclaim.

I'll just make this as concise as possible. It's a horrible idea for a Doctor/Jailkeeper to roleclaim because then they have no way to protect themselves Night 2 and they just give Mafia the most optimal kill possible. That's all I'll say about that for now.

Who do you think is scum Dry?

While we're at it, why is Nacho worthy of your vote, Om? You're not pushing that line of questioning at all.

The only reason I could imagine you would jump right out of the gate with wanting answers as to why we were lucky enough to not suffer a nightkill tells me you're frustrated scum. Which is shocking to me, because you were so pro-town yesterday. Maybe you jumping on Xegar & CF Riot was just grasping at straws after all?

What do you think of em+p doing the same? Her and dyr are scumbuddies, then?

I would normally believe that as logical but as CF Riot stated, regardless of how scummy I think Dyrnify's recent behavior is, I can't really consider the possibility that Dyr is scum due to ironically, the hammer vote.

As scum, he would of known that TheDoctor was town. So there's literally no reason that he would feel the need to rush that mislynch because I had already stated my intent to hammer.

Unless he was somehow second guessing me and thinking that I would somehow back out of my stated vote (I wasn't going to, that doesn't change knowing how he flipped) and he didn't want to take the chance of people possibly unvoting before he had a chance to end the day before you and Xegar got off your respective V/LA's.

But that's incredibly WIFOMY. So for the time being I have to believe that Dyrnify is town. Unless CF Riot is his partner. Which I find even more unlikely.

[kitiekatt]

@CF, what was the reasoning for just not explaining yourself? Was this a quiet pressure thing like what Xegar was trying to do?

I figured Doc was scum and I don't feel the need to explain myself to scum.

@CF: Under this logic, you would never ever explain your vote, assuming you're voting for people you think are scum (which you would be). Is this really what you are saying?

@Nacho, no strong enough scum reads as of yet, just suspicions which I stated. I can say I don't think Dyr is scum, for reasons stated, I think even a newbie scum would know to just back off and let Bard hammer, no reason to think he wouldn't have followed through.

I do have another question though for anyone who can answer it. I'm thinking specifically about Nacho and CF, but other SE's and IC's as well: I think in newbie games we're giving sort of a deference to them, assuming (rightfully I think) that they know how to play, looking to them for advice, generally valuing their reads, etc. BUT, if they are killed, and you can't talk after you're dead, aren't we losing valuable guidance? Would we then just save our questions for the end game? Dead people can talk in the endgame, right?

I was tossing this around in my head last night. If an IC or SE gets killed (whether or not it's a scum or town kill), we lose that experience. Can someone who has been in a game with SE's or IC's before help me out? How did you handle this? Are there ways to provide info/guidance in game without them? Or does it all have to happen after end game if they get killed?

[Om]

My vote is on Nacho because in his #62 post he called Em+d town. But she is his 2nd best scum read on D2.
I'm really curious about what exactly changed since all Em+d has posted after that is #126 #216 and #236, which by no means looks scum motivated to me.
Being unless=/=scumtell.

Not to mention both Nacho and Em+d were null read for me when we started D2, which makes it even more suspicious when one of your null reads call other likely scum in very first post of the day.

Call me a paranoid if you will, but his fist post on D2 #243 looked like going for relatively easy apples (although, I agree with his vote on Kitie), if I run number of scenarios in my head with him being scum. Like it or not, we will be screwed if this is true as he is our IC and to hard to read as player for most of us, I just wanted to get more clarity on where his motive stands before it's too late for it by putting vote on him. But looking at how he completely ignored it I'm now even more confused

[Dyrynify]

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on defending your reasoning for wanting a roleclaim for someone who claims that they in fact, do not want a roleclaim.

Nope. I am putting a lot of emphasis on why the information would be valuable. Anyone can see that the knowledge gleaned from a RC would be useful. But it is a very bad thing to do right now. The PR we have right now knows, 100%, that they succeeded. A kill did not happen. Now, all they have to do is use what they know to hunt for the scum. Staying concealed makes that much easier.

And now, for a short list on reads:

• Xegarus: Still reading scummy, but his late D1 play brought that down a few pegs. We will see how he shapes up today, but he is on the list
  
• em+p_dear: I am agreeing with Nacho at this point. em looks fairly scummy. 8 total posts in the game, and realistically very little content. A quick on/off bandwagon jump D1, and nothing of substance today looks like scum lurking to my eyes.
  
• Om: Seems to me like he is genuinely scumhunting, but I dislike the short posts. Maybe that is a personal quirk, but it feels off somehow. Town.
  
• kitiekatt: Hm. Definitly active, asking questions, moving around. I would say town.
  
• CF Riot: Scum. From flipping on his opinion of Xeg's RC in his first 5 posts, to his blatant ordering of Xeg, I just cant shake the feeling of scum from him.
  
• Smashbard: Town. Very heavy scum hunting, and in an intelligent, non insulting way. Call me a prude, but I don't think the insults add anything to the game. In fact, it has been my experience that they detract from the game in direct proportion to their frequency of use.
  
• Nachomamma8: Reading Nacho is like reading an upside down, backwards, Chinese, legal text book, printed in grey ink on white paper, in the dark. I don't follow on all of his reads, but a clear town in my mind.

[Smashbard]

Dyrnify:

So if you agree with Nacho that Empdear is scummy, how you do feel about Om's analysis that Nacho formerly thought Empdear was town Day 1? Have you always felt Empdear was scummy and it's just convenient that Nacho now agrees with you?

I don't know, it's odd me to that you say Nacho is virtually unreadable, but in the same breath say he's clear town.

I realize that it's very unlikely that you are scum at this point, I'm just trying to understand how you are getting to your conclusions.

Nacho:

What has changed in the fact that you thought Empdear was one of your top town reads to make him a possible scum suspect? Was his alignment riding on Doctors flip in some way to you?

If so, why has Empdears alignment shifted to you but Kitie still seems like your top scum suspect? Are there connections you are trying to draw that the rest of us are missing here?


Om:

In what way are you confused? Does Nacho's ignoring of your vote increase or decrease his scumminess to you? Do you agree or disagree with suspicions of Empdear & Kitiekat?

It seems to me like the only cases people have so far are on new players that are not as strong as others in defending themselves. I know the order of who's town and who's scum is supposed to be totally random, but I have a hard time believing that both SE's and the IC are all town. I don't really have a strong reason to suspect CF Riot or Nacho at the moment, but I don't buy that all the scum just lie in the weakest players either. So I'm hesitant to consider Empdear or Kitiekat without someone stating some sort of reasonable case beyond "They haven't posted much".

[Smashbard]

I'd like fresh reads from Xegarus when he's available, and the two top suspects, Empdear & Kitiekat to state their full reads of players so far. I'm going to do a little bit of wagon analysis from Day 1 but I don't claim to be an expert in that style of scumhunting. I'm just gonna try something new here.

[Om]

@Dry; Short is always beautiful. Why make long ass posts full of WIFOM when you can carry same message in short one liner's. Also, it avoids confusion from my part since English isn't even in my top 3 languages. Sorry if it bothers you :/
Btw, What do you think CF had to achieve by jumping on Doc's wagon? Not to mention; making all those risky moves like pressure voting Bard and refusing to give reason's for his vote on Doc, if he was a scum, what's the point of doing all that when he could have easily shipped on Doc's wagon from get go?

@Smash; That's the thing, I didn't get any reactions making my read of him (Nacho) to lean on either aff. leading to more confusion.