Mafiascum.net

↑ Cerulean wrote:Are Jason and mcstab your town reads or your scum reads? If scum, you should vote Jason.

Scumreads.

And I may. I'm going to sort out my reads properly tonight.

You all get to have pretty colours!

Note that some of the townreads are really weak.







I'm not sure I really get the hate on them. I actually like the first post, but they could easily be scum so far.


A lot of 134 is really unnecessary though.







I found myself kind of agreeing to things people said about him. Also reading through, I don't like his long post where he quotes and comments on things that aren't even that important. Also, his question to Vifam in 202 is pretty bad. It's a pretty weak read though and I don't think I've ever played with Jason-town.
Yeah yeah whatever, but I stand by what I said. I'm not saying you have to sheep me (yet).

~~

Plessiez, why has Zar had time to give you his opinions on a number of things, but not to post?

Benmage, why did you give away that you don't like early cutesy behaviour at the time when you'd most expect it from scum?

↑ Shadoweh wrote:Nost, who do you think had 'more misleading' content then Benmage at the point where I voted him?

In my opinion? Well we do have someone RP'ing; and as someone who can follow the wire I'm sad to say I have to read his stuff multiple times not to mention the clarifications that have been sent his way.

↑ The Mini-Librarian wrote:
1. ("Contrived Reasoning". Heh, I see what you did there.) Anyway, it was the way he called for it. It was mentioned already and shot down. In his post he showed that he was reading at least some of thread so his call for name massclaim felt very weird to me. And as Benmage correctly noted Omar could easily want specific people dead.

I've actually already answered that question about bringing it back up; is there a reason you are unsatisfied with my answer or are you hoping people wouldn't notice?

↑ Cerulean wrote:The disagreement thing is something, I'm not real sure why you find suspicious, but is going to happen.

Lets stop talking about you, and start talking about
The whole idea that they are having an internal DEBATE is predicated on the assumption that they are town, which I can't do at this point in the game.
If they are scum, then certainly there is no about who is scum, right? But it is TOTALLY in their scum-interest to give us that impression. How? By telling us all about their disagreements! Im sure they would post a QT to 'prove' it, if that werent against the rules (and famously faked in the past)

It's like they are distancing with another player- which is obv scummy this early in the game- only the other player is THEMSELVES, so we cant even lynch them for faction association.

Which is why they get my vote.
Because in THIS case.. Plessizarus is stating that they are having a debate of sorts, in fact in 135 they refer to some opinion that one of the heads has that they miraculously have time to discuss in the QT- but not in-thread.

That, to me, is one of three things.
a) blatantly anti-town. We need to hear the discussion.. the reasoning.. the data. We need it.
OR
b) a lie. There is no internal discussion, because they KNOW everyones faction already... and they are just saying that to look town (as outlined above)
OR
c) misdirection. They are Power-Hunting or SK-hunting in the QT.. but they flip the script to look like they are SCUM-hunting.. for reasons just explained.

Savvy?

Dismayed by the number of people who signed up with no flavour knowledge. You'd all have much more fun watching The Wire for the first time than you would playing day 1 of a mafia game. I know I would . Ah well. Zar was meant to post something overnight, but apparently he decided to "work" or something instead. Loser.

-- did you ever respond to Cerulean's question to you in 126? That is, do you really think unexplained RVS votes are suspicious, or do they just annoy you? And if you didn't answer, why not?

Also, "hydra self reference" is a silly thing to use a scumtell, especially when you're (correctly) town-reading Cerulean. Not quite as bad as the people who are voting SAD because of his RP, but close. (We're not changing our sig unless you ask more nicely. Just petty that way, I guess.) I've certainly never claimed to be having "rousing debate" with Zar; we both read the first few pages and exchanged a few quick impressions on IM, but that's it. (, consider that an answer to your question in 251, I guess?)

↑ TheGreatestAmericanHero wrote:dayne is town. his roleplay is the terrible-est, fakest reason to suspect someone ever. its not even hard to understand.

Quoting this because lots of people have apparently come to the same conclusion. But I don't think the first sentence follows from the rest...

Yes, SAD's RP isn't a good reason to vote for him. But it's not a good reason to clear him as town, either. I definitely think Arthur's crazy enough to be willing to RP as scum, though he probably decided to RP before getting his role PM, given when he changed his avatar (so his only decision was to not change his mind, if that makes sense). The game Zar just finished modding off-site saw Arthur (with what I guess would be the Traitor role here) post a amount, so I'm not clearing him based on the fact he's posting a lot, either. That's not a tell for Arthur. (I don't find Arthur all that easy to read in general though, I guess.)

Don't think much of the wagon on Nostrodeus. The name-claim suggestion sounds more like a sign of inexperience (either in Farday-modded games in particular or Large Theme games in general), and the rest of his posts seem consistent with this.

-- have you played in (or read) many Large Theme games?

Also, why did you ask this question

↑ Nostredeus wrote:@The Mini-L: Why don't you like Great American hero?

when you did?

Mini Librarian said he didn't like TGAH in 95. You make three or four posts after that, and don't ask him about this. Then TGAH votes for you and starts asking you questions and you ask ML about his TGAH-read. Hmm.

Neither Zar or I saw anything particularly suspicious about Shadoweh's 79, so I'm a bit puzzled about why so many people are voting for her based on it. (97 is the post Zar doesn't like, and that's literally all I know? So, yeah. Your guess is as good as mine as to why.)

But in general I'm not following her argument on Benmage. I don't see his play in this game so far as any different from his play as town in ADWD, and Shadoweh was in that game (as the Pandora hydra).

SafetyDance probably has the worst vote on SAD:

↑ SafetyDance wrote:

Vote:Ser Arthur Dayne

I agree with Benmage. The RP is not helping and is annoying.

Bubbles is a scum CI anyway.

This seems ... overexplained for a page 5 vote. "I'm voting because I'm sheeping X and also because of [joke reason]". Jason's interactions with SAD -- at least his irritation with SAD's RP -- seems much more genuine (although 122 is too long, and I love walls normally).

CDB's style of giving one-line "X looks town/scum to me" reads isn't one I hugely care for, and (perhaps ironically, given why he's voting SafetyDance) some of his posts seem "too safe". I mean, generic statements like "mass name claims are a bad idea" (106) or "people giving opinions is good" (154) or "it's easier to read replies if they're written outside of quote tags" (174). Meh.

: can you expound on 166 please? What suggests McStab has "a town mindset"?

I don't like McStab's reasons for voting Nostrodeus; I don't like the way he jumped on to and off the Shadoweh wagon without ever giving a read on Shadoweh (I'm not sure I even like his first post, with his "oh, look at me being nonchalant about the RVS wagon on me" remark, but that's probably just me starting to tunnel )

Anyway. Not going to vote until Zar's had a chance to read the thread properly and either post here or in our QT. But later today.

~ Pless

↑ camn wrote:Lets stop talking about you, and start talking about

Plessizarus

I like to see my (our?) name in big letters and everything, but you could at least spell it right .

~ Pless

↑ Plessiezarus wrote:

ChannelDeliBird

: can you expound on 166 please? What suggests McStab has "a town mindset"?

It looks to me like it's coming from a town mindset because I've done the same as town - you see something that you're convinced makes him scum and you start running with it, suddenly you see where his partners are etc. You can tell he's put some effort into checking Nostrodeus out because he specified circumstances for my lynch dependent on his flip. And he went in on it - "Nostrodeus is a rat, lynch him" pretty early on - which I think is further than scum faking his behaviour would go at that point. I don't see any difference there to the last time when I saw him as town.

As far as my posting style goes, it's fair enough if you dislike it, but this how I'm going to play. Brevity is pro-town; Walls of text aren't fun so I try hard not to write them and I don't read them either.

I don't think my vote on SafetyDance for being too safe is hypocritical - him voting for Ser Arthur over the roleplaying thing is a really easy stance to take that requires no actual examination beyond the surface and would let him get lost in a crowd if the wagon built up. I like to think that I am showing some signs of examining beyond the surface and not necessarily following others.

Ok so I just woke up and I've found the time to read the thread a little more deeply. Apologize for the length of the wall.

~~



Ok so I feel like you deserve a longer explanation regarding the whole Benmage meta thing. I'm well aware of Benmage's reputation but the fact of the matter is that I actually seen him be nearly frivolously lynched D1 as town. For example, take a look at this recent game (which I followed while ongoing) where scum actually tried to push a last minute counterwagon on him to a lynch on one of their own. He spent a decent portion of that D1 lurking and got attacked for it by a decent amount of people. So despite his reputation in games, this one showed me that can be attacked as an easy target despite it. Your vote on him in the early part of the game for "pointlessly griping" reminded me of that especially when I took a look at his ISO up to that point and got a very different impression of his play (e.g, I felt like his play was more than the two comments).

About his meta more generally, Tammy and others have told me in the past that Benmage prides himself on having "the best scum game on the site," and as such, he's much more aggressive and engaged as scum. He also tends to look down on people who are lazy or don't try very hard when they're mafia. As town, he's pretty much the opposite, I feel like he's a bit more passive and he can get pretty lazy and lurky. Regfan wrote a very concise summary of it here in ADwD, a game I feel he's playing very similarly to. I also took a look at one of his somewhat recent scum games here and I think you can pretty clearly see the difference (take a look at his interactions with MoI especially). All in all, I feel pretty good about Benmage being town and he's probably my strongest townread here so far.

I also took a look at some of your games to get a sense of your meta. We played together in Mafiastuck (I was part of Epic along with petapan) but I townread your slot mainly because of some stuff Working Manju said. I think you're playing more like you're town self (Mini 1376/Weather Mafia II vs. Otherworld/GvE).

~~



I don't see how SafetyDance's vote on Arthur in #113 is overexplained at all, in fact my problem with it is the exact opposite - it feels extremely lazy and undercooked. What bothered me about it more than anything, though, was that he basically sidestepped all the major topics of discussion (e.g., the early setup spec, the Shadoweh wagon) just to park his vote on Arthur like that. It comes off to me as the epitome of scum laziness and opportunism. #117 is basically gratuitous filler to make it seem like he's being contributory and helpful. Also, Jason being vaguely genuine about Arthur's RP'ing seems like something easy to fake as scum and I have a lot of problems with his play (Tammy's mentioned some of them already but I think #122 has way too little actual content in proportion to the size of the post and the attacks on Arthur/Vifam are shallow).

Normally, I have a pretty easy time reading Arthur but I'm struggling this game I think largely due to his RP'ing. Tammy's told me his scum game has been improving, though, citing the recently finished Westeros game. Do you and Zar feel like he's playing similarly here or not (and why)?

Tammy found the intra-hydra back and forth regarding your townread on our slot to be genuine but I'm not so sure, I think something like that could be easily faked from you guys. I don't really trust myself to be able to read your slot given what I've heard about Zar's meta, though, so I'm pretty much delegating all of that to her.

~~



Where is Zach and why hasn't he been posting that much?

(Yes, this deserved a giant bold header.)

~~

I have some weaker townreads I'm not ready to talk about yet because I get the impression that a lot of people are struggling getting reads this game and I don't want to ease people into the game. I think our scumreads at this point are pretty well stated and both of us agree on the Jason vote. SafetyDance is not a bad vote either though. I'm kind of eh on McStab, I think his attack on Nostredeus is pretty shitty and applies too high of a standard for him regarding his level of competence. Not sure if it's scum motivated, though, need to see more from him.

↑ petapan wrote:vifam delivering one liners isn't relevant to his alignment that's just how he posts also he's p clearly posting content so ur dum imho

What do you think of Vifam's alignment in this game based off the content he's been posting? Do you have reads on anyone yet, and if so, what are they?

It would make me so happy if two terrible wagons weren't in bold every votecount.

Cerulean: @_@ Why does it take so many words to say you think Benmage is lazy as town. Okay okay I get it, but it makes me uncomfortable to clear someone because they're not being as strong as they could be. I don't remember much of ADwD because I wasn't reading very much of it

Mini-Libra: I think the only question I have for you that is implicitly asked in my post there is who your current town and scum reads are with reasoning behind them. Rereading absta's posts do make me frown but he's on v/la until tomorrow so I can't expect a response about them. And I use double spacing if I have more then one person I'm addressing, but I don't think I'd ever be satisfied with a bunch of one-liners like that.

SAD: Please stop calling me an undergarment you pervert.

Oh yes, and to Benmage. Trawling, as in casting out a net and seeing what you can catch. It means you feel more like you're actively looking for something, which makes me less uncomfortable about you, though I'm still interested in seeing if you catch anything.

↑ Ser Arthur Dayne wrote:

↑ Vifam wrote:Peta always posts like that and you are really are dumb if you think that takes away from his statement

Hop with me on that-pretty-face-Jason?

honestly i was just annoyed with him but then i actually read that awful wall post and yeah ok

UNVOTE:

VOTE: jason

deasvail is voting Jason per Post 251

↑ ChannelDelibird wrote:I don't see any difference there to the last time when I saw him [McStab] as town.

Got a link to that game?

↑ ChannelDelibird wrote:As far as my posting style goes, it's fair enough if you dislike it, but this how I'm going to play. Brevity is pro-town; Walls of text aren't fun so I try hard not to write them and I don't read them either.

Yeah, I don't expect you to change. Short posts seem to be the in-thing anyway; I should get better at reading people who post that way. I'm familiar with the argument they are pro-town, but not entirely convinced.

I like walls, personally. (Not sure you'd have guessed from my posts.)

↑ ChannelDelibird wrote:I don't think my vote on SafetyDance for being too safe is hypocritical - him voting for Ser Arthur over the roleplaying thing is a really easy stance to take that requires no actual examination beyond the surface and would let him get lost in a crowd if the wagon built up.

I don't think I was accusing you of being hypocritical, per se, and I don't think hypocrisy is a scum-tell anyway. You're right that his (and other people's) votes for Arthur are easy ways to pretend to comment.

↑ Cerulean wrote:Apologize for the length of the wall.

This post was too short, yes. Apology accepted!

↑ Cerulean wrote:Tammy and others have told me in the past that Benmage prides himself on having "the best scum game on the site," and as such, he's much more aggressive and engaged as scum. He also tends to look down on people who are lazy or don't try very hard when they're mafia. As town, he's pretty much the opposite, I feel like he's a bit more passive and he can get pretty lazy and lurky. Regfan wrote a very concise summary of it here in ADwD, a game I feel he's playing very similarly to. I also took a look at one of his somewhat recent scum games here and I think you can pretty clearly see the difference (take a look at his interactions with MoI especially).

His play in this game is certainly closer to ADwD than it is to the linked game, yes. (I should probably do my own meta-research, but ... as I said, lazy.)

↑ Cerulean wrote:I don't see how SafetyDance's vote on Arthur in #113 is overexplained at all, in fact my problem with it is the exact opposite - it feels extremely lazy and undercooked.

Overexplained in the sense that, once he said he was sheeping Benmage and voting because of the "annoying" RP, the comment about SAD's avatar seem redundant? Like, why say that at all unless you're worried your vote might be seen as too unoriginal? ("Overexplained" doesn't mean "not lazy".)

Don't really care that he didn't comment on the "major topics of discussion", since ... yeah, they were boring.

↑ Cerulean wrote:Normally, I have a pretty easy time reading Arthur but I'm struggling this game I think largely due to his RP'ing. Tammy's told me his scum game has been improving, though, citing the recently finished Westeros game. Do you and Zar feel like he's playing similarly here or not (and why)?

"Similarly" might be overstating it? Superficially similar, sure, if you ignore the RP in this game. He starts (started?) both games with a lot of short one-linear posts (sometimes quoting something and commenting, sometimes asking questions, sometimes just making random remarks). As I've said, I find this style hard to read, personally, but I'm pretty sure it's what he thinks is the "correct" way to play as town, and it's how I'd describe his early posts in NY160B too. So really, it's not "similar" in any way I consider indicative of alignment, but it's not yet obviousy dissimilar either (again, except for the RP, which is unique to this game). I'd link you to the Westeros game, I guess, but Tammy can do that if she wants.

There are a couple of things I'd expect from SAD this game if he's town, but he's not had the chance to really do either yet, so I won't comment until he does (or if hasn't after a few days, I guess). For now he's very much a null-read for me.

↑ Cerulean wrote:Tammy found the intra-hydra back and forth regarding your townread on our slot to be genuine but I'm not so sure, I think something like that could be easily faked from you guys. I don't really trust myself to be able to read your slot given what I've heard about Zar's meta, though, so I'm pretty much delegating all of that to her.

Well, if we were scum we'd pretty much have to fake some sort of interaction like this (or explain why we weren't behaving the way we did in ADWD), so I don't think the fact I'm talking about Zar so much is much of a tell in itself? I don't know how good a job of faking it we'd manage though.

We town this game, anyway, so well done to Tammy .

(I'm still waiting for Zar before I vote, obviously.)

~ Pless

Game in which I played with McStabTown (also contains me as scum if you're interested)

@Everyone: I think alot of people are thinking that what Benmage said is what happened (that a bunch of people shot down the name idea, that's why he backed off). Go back and check the posts. He suggests it, ONE small post comes up (that really doesn't have alot of merit), written by the person he was voting for as scum (which would normally bring into question the motives of the person saying it) and he backs off.

I have a logic-read on DV being scum but a gutread about him makes me think town. It's the most peculiar thing, because I really think I'd normally take a defensive stance on it, but for some reason the way he goes about describing his scumread on me makes me think he's town - nonetheless, I don't like his disclaimer on townreads being weak (they obviously are weak at this time in the game) because it reads like a disclaimer clause to get out of his reads (which is valid enough, but the fact that he explicitly stated it makes me question his motivation). Still, far better people to vote for out there than DV.

Nost, are you new to Mafiascum? Not at all a skill-indicative question just wondering for meta-sake.

Vifam, Shadoweh and Ser Arthur Dayne are town. Nost is likely scum, and I want to hear more from SafetyDance. I agree with what people are saying about Jason, but depending on posting style one could be annoyed with Petapan and have that affect his reads - it's irrational and unreasonable, but that would be potential town-motivated reason for his read on Peta. I think there's merit to pushing a Jason wagon, but the Nost and SafetyDance wagons are far more important.

Don't like the content produced by Plezzie, there's not much and it's weak. Just anti-town right now, not really scum.


Also for the sake of posterity in case my tinfoil hat theory starts looking plausible a Benmage-CDB-Nost scumteam works really well; I don't wanna get into setup spec too much so it's possible there's more scum/different factions/SK.

Just a heads up based on setup spec relating to flavour; if a police character flips, they would almost certainly be the main scumteam. If an East-Side dealer flips, they are also probably a scumteam. I'd imagine we're either dealing with a two-faction setup like that (especially if this ends up being a Night-Action intensive game) or a large scumteam + SK (Omar Little as a BP SK makes alot of sense, for example). I know this is in the realm of speculation, but it's important that we interpret night actions correctly and people who are familiar with the flavour can likely help with that.

TL;DR Vote Nost. If Nost ever flips scum checkout CDB and Benmage. SafetyDance and Jason should be pressured but I could see Jason town motivations. DV is acting scummy but I have a gut town feel on him. I disagree with Plezzie. Vifam, SAD and Shadoweh are town.

The townreads on both me and Vifam and hilariously naive.

↑ McStab wrote:Just a heads up based on setup spec relating to flavour; if a police character flips, they would almost certainly be the main scumteam. If an East-Side dealer flips, they are also probably a scumteam. I'd imagine we're either dealing with a two-faction setup like that (especially if this ends up being a Night-Action intensive game) or a large scumteam + SK (Omar Little as a BP SK makes alot of sense, for example). I know this is in the realm of speculation, but it's important that we interpret night actions correctly and people who are familiar with the flavour can likely help with that.

Nah the east-side people are not that important in s1. I can see 3 cops + like Bubbles as a traitor to the cops + Omar as an SK.

↑ McStab wrote:TL;DR Vote Nost.

I don't feel like it.

(More votes for Jason.)

↑ DeasVail wrote:

Town

Cerulean
Benmage
Camn
Ser Arthur Dayne
TML
Shadoweh
Nostredeus
ChannelDelibird

Explain those last 6 townreads bro? (even if they're weak w/e just give like a 1 sentence explanation?)

At this point I've be a lot more interested in explanations rather than pretty colors and lists and shit. No point in breakin' up the PL into groups yet (imo, you can feel differently?) but some explanations to why you be feelin' the way you feelin' would help.

Please, my dear townies, observe Plez' response to my vote.
Denial.
Combativeness.
Defensiveness.

Could be I have struck a nerve.
Some finer points:
First- I DID answer that question! But Perez didn't notice in his eagerness to create a counter crap case. Attack your attacker, hmm? Not a logical way to find scum... but QUITE logical to try and avoid heat.
Second- calling something 'silly' is no way to argue against it.

Oops. Accidentally submitted

Third- the sudden uptick in your post volume after they catch a vote? Classic lurkerscum.
'Uh oh! ... I'm not under the radar anymore! Time to switch tactics!"

Last- Petty is petty, and not pro town.