Mini 1580: EpicMafiaTime [GAME OVER]

[tn5421]

There are quite a lot of interesting things going on in here.

UNVOTE:

Congrats, you're now #2 on my scum list for this post alone.

Good for you.

[Not Voting]

There are quite a lot of interesting things going on in here.

UNVOTE:

Congrats, you're now #2 on my scum list for this post alone.

Good for you.

Scum try their hardest to be involved without taking any positions that hold them accountable. Posts like the above fit exactly into that mold of "hey look I'm here and posting and playing the game" without actually doing anything useful at all.

[Not Voting]

There are quite a lot of interesting things going on in here.

UNVOTE:

Congrats, you're now #2 on my scum list for this post alone.

Good for you.

And where is my cookie for it?

[tn5421]

There are quite a lot of interesting things going on in here.

UNVOTE:

Congrats, you're now #2 on my scum list for this post alone.

Good for you.

Scum try their hardest to be involved without taking any positions that hold them accountable. Posts like the above fit exactly into that mold of "hey look I'm here and posting and playing the game" without actually doing anything useful at all.

Not really, I'm no longer stretched thin on the number of games I'm in at once, so I can actually post some content.

[Haschel Cedricson]

There are quite a lot of interesting things going on in here.

UNVOTE:

Basically its bookitty vs kthxbye, bookitty vs mirhawk, squirrel vs kthxbye, squirrel vs HC, and kthxbye vs everyone.

Are these specifically the things you find interesting?

[Bookitty]

Also all the responses in 233 avoid actually answering any of the questions K asks.

Can you expand on this, please? What questions did I miss?

[tn5421]

There are quite a lot of interesting things going on in here.

UNVOTE:

Basically its bookitty vs kthxbye, bookitty vs mirhawk, squirrel vs kthxbye, squirrel vs HC, and kthxbye vs everyone.

Are these specifically the things you find interesting?

The fight over the last page or so was quite interesting, yes.

[Haschel Cedricson]

There are quite a lot of interesting things going on in here.

UNVOTE:

Basically its bookitty vs kthxbye, bookitty vs mirhawk, squirrel vs kthxbye, squirrel vs HC, and kthxbye vs everyone.

Are these specifically the things you find interesting?

The fight over the last page or so was quite interesting, yes.

What was interesting about it?

[Squirrel Girl]

I am interested in the interesting explanation too

[Mirhawk]

Kthxbye's not taking responsibility for his own vote on Sal nor is he giving any justification for it. He's sheeping Jake even though he thinks Not Voting is probably scum. He insults another player without actually giving any reasons for why he believes Generic is playing poorly. Kthxbye doesn't actually answer any of Generic's points, which are valid; he just LOLs at them and dismisses them. (Yeah, see, you can be overinvolved in one post and then dismissive in the next. Who knew?) He's wishy-washy on RC (read Red above) and sets himself up to go either way on it. He fails to say one thing in that post for which he takes any responsibility at all.

Have I left anything out? I thought it was obvious, but now I've lined it out for you.

K's vote on Sal is bad townplay. The only thing is, it happens to be even worse scumplay. And it's not like he was even trying to hide it, he basically called it out to every other player that he was sheeping jake even though he thought NV was scum.

Insulting other players is not alignment indicative.

Generics case is a fluff psychology case based on the fluff answer to a fluff question. Gee, I wonder why it didn't get taken seriously.

I don't often look at the time stamps. Generally they aren't relevant. If Haschel refreshed and saw a response, he may not have seen the time stamps. I honestly don't know nor do I have any way to find out. I do know that provoking quick answers to questions can sometimes cause scum to slip up. I think RC is probably a pretty canny player and that he knows that too. So his comment about Haschel over what is essentially an unprovable point ever (how will we ever know for sure if Haschel looked at or didn't look at the time stamps?) struck me as an odd point and a bit of a misrep. It's like me accusing you of never having read my original post that I quoted at the start of this one. Did you read it and forget it? Did you skim over it? I can't know for sure, but I can surely frame my argument to suggest that you are lying no matter what you say. I don't KNOW that RC is doing that, but I'm going to watch him. More so because he criticised me at the start of the game for joining a wagon instead of aggressively pursuing my own suspicions, and he then criticises Haschel for being too aggressive in pursuing his own suspicions.

Yeah, except its not like Haschel went and took a break before making the second post, it's difficult to believe that he could not notice it had only been a few minutes. RC was making a perfectly valid line of inquiry. It doesn't matter if the point could be proven true or not, nothing any of us say can be proven true or not at this point.

Can you expand on this, please? What questions did I miss?

If I'm nervous about RC checking up on me, then how do you come to your conclusion of the predicted scum team?

On that note, please explain how you came to said conclusion. How do the 3 of us mesh as a scum team?

Also, I ask NV to explain how my posts are more likely coming from scum than from town and you think I'm not going to ask you the same thing? I assume you think this as you don't explain why aside from it's different than what you are accused of?

You responded to all of these without actually answering the question he asked. And before you ask, yes I consider that last one a question directed at you.

[Bookitty]

The first one, I did answer. They are independently scummy.

I don't have enough information to see how they mesh as a scum team, but I don't expect my prediction to be spot on on Day One anyway. I believe I even said that we could look back at the end of the game and see how close I was to right; that hardly suggests that I have a Grand Unified Theory of Scum in this game.

I suggested that if I was right, RC might have been preparing to buss. Since RC is my least confident scumread, I don't know that that is so and I'm not going to push a case I am not that confident of in the first place.

I explained specifically how his posts were more likely coming from scum than town.

So why didn't you quote the post 233 that you were referencing, instead of taking his questions out of context and not putting my replies with them? I'll do that for you now. It seems pretty odd to me that you're addressing a specific post of mine and not quoting it yourself. And yes, by odd I mean scummy.

I'll turn it around, kthxbye, why are YOU asking a question to which you already know the answer?

Reaction....umm....duh?

What reaction were you expecting? If Sala had said, "We are only lynching these two people today!" in response, what would you have derived from it? If Sala had said, "No, of course not, Mr. kthxbye, please tell me who to lynch," what would you have derived from that?

I'm going to predict a Not Voting-Red Coyote-kthxbye scum team

1 of 3 isn't the worst you could do, but it's certainly not very good by any stretch...

It did make me laugh though, as well as your vote and the 'reasoning' behind it.

If I'm nervous about RC checking up on me, then how do you come to your conclusion of the predicted scum team?

Why were you nervous about RC checking up on you, then? I was considering bussing, but RC is my least confident read in that lineup anyway. Anyway, I don't think anyone could have predicted your train wreck of a response, bussing scum OR town.

How do you know there's only one scum in that trio? Are you certain that Red Coyote is town? Why or why not?

On that note, please explain how you came to said conclusion. How do the 3 of us mesh as a scum team?

Also, I ask NV to explain how my posts are more likely coming from scum than from town and you think I'm not going to ask you the same thing? I assume you think this as you don't explain why aside from it's different than what you are accused of?

You're each independently scummy; I admit I could be wrong about RC. Your posts are more likely to come from scum than town because they are extensively overexplained and overdefensive. You're very quick to engage in OMGUS and to come out swinging at the first hint that anyone would consider you scum. Rather than make a measured defense, you immediately resort to insults and threats.

Inconsistencies found.

Now watch this, I'll pull a rabbit out of my hat while explain why your post is likely coming from a scum mindset over a town mindset.
First, scum will want to push a wagon on town along while not stepping on any toes.
Second, scum are more likely to forget how people are interacting when they form opinions on who the possible scum team members are.

You did both in one post.

Now here's my prediction. If I'm right and NV is the scum on my wagon, you're likely his partner and threw him in your predicted scum team to try and distance without completely bussing him.

I don't think I've exhibited any unwillingness to step on toes in this game. Admittedly, I'm not calling people VIs or suggesting that they are mentally disabled in some way, but I feel like I stepped on your toes pretty good. I don't think my expressed suspicions of RC are particularly safe either; however, I have this awesome superpower that lets me win with the town even if I die, so I am not scared of your threats nor particularly committed to my personal survival.

I thought TN might be scum based on his overreaction to pressure from Haschel. You've trumped that by FAR.

To those hung up on my wordy answer to RC's question of my preferred roles:

All I said was that I enjoy playing scum and town both depending on the circumstances. I just explained it in more detail. To those on my wagon, if asked the same question (which...I am asking the same question with this), what is your answer?

I prefer Vanilla Town. See, simple.

Next up would be how/why is it more likely that my role is a scum role over a town role when I call someone derp for derp reasoning of their derp vote? Please link me ANY game in which a player you played with in linked game did this very thing which colored your opinion of this action to be more likely coming from scum.

Overexplained and overinvolved explanations to a relatively simple question? Covering all the bases just in case someone does check on your claim? No, I can't say anyone has ever announced how happy they were with their role in the thread before. You should feel special, you're a unique snowflake!

I answered every question you've mentioned in that post. Now, here is one for you:

If you had a town powerrole, would you mention in your first post how much you liked your role? Why or why not?

[Kthxbye]

Your word choice also seems as though you thought quite a bit about the question and your answer, rather than just answering.

100% true.

[Bookitty]

Also all the responses in 233 avoid actually answering

any of the questions

K asks.

Even if you felt I didn't adequately answer the selected questions you quoted in your most recent post, how does that square with the bolded part of your statement above? Isn't that a pretty serious exaggeration?

[Mirhawk]

Your posts are more likely to come from scum than town because they are extensively overexplained and overdefensive. You're very quick to engage in OMGUS and to come out swinging at the first hint that anyone would consider you scum. Rather than make a measured defense, you immediately resort to insults and threats.

You say it like these are things townies don't routinely do.

And no, I wouldn't say something like that if I pulled a PR. But I wouldn't say something like that no matter what role I pulled, so that's something of a moot point. The reason I don't say things like that is because I've seen conversations that started this way turn into silly witch hunts before.

[Mirhawk]

Even if you felt I didn't adequately answer the selected questions you quoted in your most recent post, how does that square with the bolded part of your statement above? Isn't that a pretty serious exaggeration?

To be honest, I never noticed the part of your post that I quoted in my last post until I went back and read it again. I don't particularly like your answer, but yes you did answer that question.

[Bookitty]

See, here's my issue, Mirhawk.

You went back and found all of kthxbye's posts with the questions; you mentioned my post by number. Why wouldn't you go back and actually READ my post if you were basing your accusations on it? Why do the work of hunting his posts when those questions were in the post you were referencing anyway? Wouldn't it have been much simpler and quicker to quote my post, if you were genuinely convinced I hadn't answered those questions?

Why go the long way around?

[Generic]

So half my wagon thinks I over explained and was overdefensive while the other half think I was dismissive and deflecting..... Interesting.

Isn't the dismissive thing Mirhawk's? He's not voting you. Also, I'd agree that you were dismissive, you were dismissive after being called out on being over explain-y. Both situations exist, that some find one aspect more telling than another actually isn't all that interesting to me except on a highly theory driven thought process of 'how the game is played'

I sort of felt like you were trying to be dismissive of your wagon here though.
Am I allowed to cite you for being dismissive here, or would that destroy my ability to also suggest that you have been over explain-y? If I'm only allowed to do one I'll stick to over explain-y

@SG: In vampire, you were much more active in questioning where in this game, you seem to be happy following. In vampire, I was scum and you were right on with your questioning me (which is why I wanted you dead N1 even after I fielded your questions to a point of you losing some suspicion). In this game, I'm town and you are letting others make statements and simply agreeing with them instead of asking questions yourself. Why?

Dunno. Maybe I had more time then or had a more focused line of questioning I was pursuing. I feel I've been fairly up front with my thoughts and have pursued the ones important to me.

@Everyone: Let's say it took 4 to lynch and I flipped town. Is there scum on my wagon? If yes, then who and why?

So, basically the question is "are there scum on my wagon?" This is the wagon;

Generic, Not Voting, Squirrel Girl, Bookitty

I have Boo as town and Generic as leaning town. If you flipped town off a magic 4 person lynch I would be mildly suspect of Not Voting, who also has the laziest vote on you.

SG covered something I wanted to address very well in the first part of this. The attempt to try and belittle the reasoning for the suspicion on you is flawed, because the issue with you for me started with an over explained answer to a simple question (which by the way I answered with regards to how was the better way to answer it) and then you proceeded to get overdefensive with a series of derogatory and dismissive posts. The two exist together, your way of getting over defensive to the pressure on you was to be aggressively dismissive of me.

And you finally addressed the start point to all this suspicion two days later... Too little, too late.

Bookitty has gone up vastly in my assessment with her handling of what I thought was one of the few really strong points in kthxbye's post (regarding RC being the one who posed the question that kthxbye panicked on yet bookitty had them as predicted scumbuddies).

I am finding TN also suspicious at this point after his fluff post about SGs pistachio joke gave me reason to ISO him. His posts are largely fluff, with opinions or reads only really provided when he has been challenged or pressured. Everything else is either no value to the game or self involved, and that's pinging the scumdar.

As for your earlier question to me kthxbye, sice NV has now responded I will answer by pointing ou I've been telling you why I found what you did scummy all the way along. The fact you weren't bothering to read it and trying toga swabs it away isn't my problem.

[Generic]

First part of that is me talking to kthxbye, sorry I didn't make that clear. I am merely quoting SG cos she was answering the same thing.

[Not Voting]

Your word choice also seems as though you thought quite a bit about the question and your answer, rather than just answering.

100% true.

Given that mafia have to fake their scumhunting, who do you think is more likely to have to carefully choose their words? Scum or town?

[Mirhawk]

Don't be stupid Boo. I obviously read your post, otherwise how would I have obtained an opinion on it at all.

As for your other question, when I originally made that post I made it with the Quote+ function. But as I was only answering the three posts you had made, I didn't include your old post. When I went to answer the last question I realized I needed a reference to the questions but I didn't know a way to add another quote after you've written the rest of your post so I made it manually. To obtain the questions I went to the source to get them as opposed to secondhand as that is usually considered more accurate.

[Bookitty]

I believe you read my post. Clearly you didn't understand it, though, since you accused me of something you've now had to completely retract. Making false accusations reduces your credibility, at a minimum, and makes you look quite a bit scummier. Just in case you did not know.

Why are you so convinced that kthxbye is town? You have dismissed much of what he says as town playing badly; what gives you that impression specifically and differentiates his play from scum playing badly?

[Mirhawk]

Town playing badly looks almost exactly the same as scum playing badly. If you do something stupid as town that makes you look like scum then it's obviously not a good scumplay either.

I don't think K is town, he's Null at best. The only reason he's getting the free defense treatment is because I think you're scum.

Though we can talk about how you shut RC down for making a completely valid observation about HC if you like.

[Bookitty]

Sure, let's talk about that. I would be interested to know how I "shut RC down," myself. I expressed suspicions of him; did that render him mute? Did I somehow verbally break his arms?

If kthxbye is null at BEST, then he can't be town in your eyes. You even said so: "I don't think K is town." So what is your case that I must be scum? Do you think I'm bussing my scumbuddy kthxbye? I'm eager to hear your version of how K isn't town but I'm scum for attacking him.

Do you notice how kthxbye is standing idly by and letting you get beaten up for making false accusations? He's not helping you out. He's letting you take the heat all by your lonesome. Do you wonder why that might be?

[Mirhawk]

You shut him down by implying that any questions that he asks in the future are in fact manipulations. Shutting him down has nothing to do with what he can or can't say, but rather how he is viewed by other members of the town.

Saying that K is null at best is not the same thing as saying that he's scum. The fact that he's letting me take the heat on this is actually the scummiest thing he's done thus far. Nothing else he's done makes him look more scum then town, or vice versa. And yes it is perfectly possible for you to bus a scumbuddy, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't be.

You're scum because you went the way the wind was blowing when you jumped on K. The same as you did when you jumped on TN, the same as you did when you jumped on me, and the same as you did when you got off me because nobody else was biting.

[Bookitty]

I don't actually think anyone but me regards RC as suspicious. Certainly you don't. So your argument falls apart right there.

By your argument, one could never express suspicion of anyone for being manipulative because they would then be influencing the oh-so-easily-led town to follow along. I go the other way on this argument. If I'm suspicious of someone, I say so pretty much right away.

Who was I sheeping when I jumped on TN? I wagoned you, because your reaction to the Salamence gambit really didn't ring true to me. You explained your inexperience and I accepted that as fact at the time, but maybe I was hasty on that. I voted kthxbye because someone I read as town, Squirrel Girl, asked for more votes on him. I thought kthx was probably scum anyway for that first post and the Generic-kthx exchange.

Now that you've made PROVEN false accusations against me, I'm not sure of your alignment anymore. I had you as prob-town, but your recent posts haven't borne that belief out.

The fact that he's letting me take the heat on this is actually the scummiest thing he's done thus far.

Nothing else he's done makes him look more scum then town, or vice versa.

So, why do you suppose he has four people on his wagon? Are all of us scum?