Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[Revan]

It's non-productive. I never analyze NKs or DKs, they are just a bunch of WIFOM. We should just continue scumhunting.

[Sesq]

It's non-productive. I never analyze NKs or DKs, they are just a bunch of WIFOM. We should just continue scumhunting.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


AAAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

This is stupid.

[Revan]

What? From my point of view, Hawk could've been killed for a lot of reasons. Since we don't know what reason, it's useless bothering.

[Revan]

Sesq why are you voting Family and not one of your scumreads? Like mozamis?

[Sesq]

What? From my point of view, Hawk could've been killed for a lot of reasons. Since we don't know what reason, it's useless bothering.

No, we continue until we do know.

I kinda want some other players in here though, some new things maybe.

PEDIT: As if FC isn't one of my scumreads. I'll jump off he goes to L-1 probably, but that's not even worth thinking about right now.

[Revan]

Fine, you guys continue trying to solve the mystery. I just think it's really easy for scum to send town down the wrong trail here if we analyze too deeply.

[Sesq]

Fine, you guys continue trying to solve the mystery. I just think it's really easy for scum to send town down the wrong trail here if we analyze too deeply.

I think you almost succeeded at that yourself.

[Ultimate Despair]

Fine, you guys continue trying to solve the mystery. I just think it's really easy for scum to send town down the wrong trail here if we analyze too deeply.

I continue to not understand this. How would NK (or day kill in this case) analysis be especially prone to "send town down the wrong trail" compared to any other form of scum-hunting/game-solving?

Like, lets say that the scum team is able to manipulate the day kill discussion in order to secure a mislynch on day 1. How is that different than scum manipulating the day 1 discussion without a day kill in order to secure a mislynch? Is the day kill discussion MORE prone to lead us down the wrong trail? Is the day kill discussion somehow a form of discussion where we are less able to identify and pursue potential manipulations and lies?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

It's non-productive. I never analyze NKs or DKs, they are just a bunch of WIFOM. We should just continue scumhunting.

Also, are you new to mafia? You just joined the site, so I'm curious if this means you've played a fair amount elsewhere, or if you're an alt of an existing player here, or something else.

-M

[Revan]

If we don't analyze the DK, we won't be set on the wrong track. If scum is trying to influence town to mislynch, it's up to town to ignore the influence, and analyze each player. That's where I stand on this.

I do have previous experience on a non-mafia forum. Fortunately, some of them play here so I'm familiar with the terminology. They are also the reason I'm here!

[Sesq]

If we don't analyze the DK, we won't be set on the wrong track. If scum is trying to influence town to mislynch, it's up to town to ignore the influence, and analyze each player. That's where I stand on this.

I do have previous experience on a non-mafia forum. Fortunately, some of them play here so I'm familiar with the terminology. They are also the reason I'm here!

Analaysis of the DK won't necessarily lead to the mislynch of who Mafia was targeting for.

[Ultimate Despair]

If we don't analyze the DK, we won't be set on the wrong track. If scum is trying to influence town to mislynch, it's up to town to ignore the influence, and analyze each player. That's where I stand on this.

You're basically just stating that analyzing the DK will send us on the wrong track without saying why you think that it will. Since the fairly obvious conclusion from looking at the DK is to suspect Sesq and/or FC, the implication would be that you have at least a decent town-read on one or both of them, or that you have solid suspects outside of that pair.

However, I don't see anything in your ISO that suggests a town read on either of those two, and your strongest suspects are apparently doom and mozami, and mozami is pursuing Sesq (a DK suspect), while doom is pursuing FC (the other DK suspect) as well as mozami.

So while this MAY hold up as a consistent pattern of thought (your top two suspects are talking about the DK), what in particular makes you think that one or the other of them is actually trying to manipulate the conversation based on the DK to drive a mislynch?

-M

[Revan]

However, it might lead to the non-lynching of a mafia member.

[Ultimate Despair]

Anything might lead to a town lynch. How is DK analysis in particular more likely to lead to a town lynch?
-M

[Revan]

I guess you're right, it isn't any more likely.

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

[mozamis]

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

[Sesq]

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Looks like a contradiction to me, and you look like you may be backing up scum to me. Then again, Revan looked like he was trying to distract town, and his stopping of it feels kinda town, and then IDK

I guess Mozamis could still be scum and Revan town, and I'm going with that. VOTE: Mozamis until he starts being productive and/or less scummy.

[Ultimate Despair]

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Explain how? Just because of his refusal to bow to the expectation put on him or something else? I find the scum explanation of simply not being able to answer it (and backing out of the substantive part of the debate) plausible, with a "well I'm just doing it my way" note tacked on as an attempt to look townie/stubborn. Overall it seems null to me, with town and scum explanations pretty reasonable. Why do you think it's obvtown?

[Ultimate Despair]

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Looks like a contradiction to me, and you look like you may be backing up scum to me. Then again, Revan looked like he was trying to distract town, and his stopping of it feels kinda town, and then IDK

I guess Mozamis could still be scum and Revan town, and I'm going with that. VOTE: Mozamis until he starts being productive and/or less scummy.

What is the contradiction? And how is Mozami "backing up"? His 241 expressed irritation at Revan without containing suspicion/scum read, and his 238 expressly indicated a town read there. So as a potential town process, it actually looks highly consistent.

What am i missing here?

-M

[Sesq]

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Looks like a contradiction to me, and you look like you may be backing up scum to me. Then again, Revan looked like he was trying to distract town, and his stopping of it feels kinda town, and then IDK

I guess Mozamis could still be scum and Revan town, and I'm going with that. VOTE: Mozamis until he starts being productive and/or less scummy.

What is the contradiction? And how is Mozami "backing up"? His 241 expressed irritation at Revan without containing suspicion/scum read, and his 238 expressly indicated a town read there. So as a potential town process, it actually looks highly consistent.

What am i missing here?

-M

The contradiction was Revan saying "We should look for DK stuff, but I'm not doing it." Mozamis backing Revan up looks like scum play now I think about it. 241 did look town, or at least unplanned.

[mozamis]

Why do you think it's obvtown?

i just dont see scum being that ballsy. it's just seems honest and out in the open. scum want to blend in. thats not blending in, that's him basically saying "you guys do what you want, i'm not going to". classic town. you know this. KEEP IT SIMPLE ULTIMATE.

[wgeurts]

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Revan and mozam are not scum together.

[wgeurts]

Also in response to Revan I'm just going to refer back to my reads list a la wall.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok back from my weekend V/LA …

In my read through I’ve narrowed my top suspects to Friend Computer, Sesq and Revan.

Friend Computer

has looked like a solid scum candidate since his vote for Doom that he responded to my vote for him with “Well, its RVS” which completely sidesteps that it was a bad justified hop onto the solidly leading wagon. 133 I think comes from a scum perspective – he’s showing cognizance of the game state and knowing that I’m generally not scum read and thus he knows FOSing me with nothing but OMGUS behind it is a poor move for his survival. I also think the following shows he isn’t actually forming reads but reacting to the game-state as scum –

Currently nulltownreading Sesq and Magna. Can't really get any other reads this early.

Current reads:

Town Lean: Sesq, Hawk (playing aggressively and trying to get information out of me, I feel they are scumhunting)
Null Scum: Doom (for that little slip-up he made in the beginning), the lurkers (sort of meta)

Null read everyone else.

These posts were made less than 20 posts apart. Less than a page’s worth of posting. And I didn’t post a single time in that span. Yet his nulltown read on my disappears completely. I feel if he was really sorting people he’d have some reason to have given that nulltown read in the first place and would not have just dropped it.

Finally the vote at 180 is terrible as he in the same post he makes a vote he knows isn’t valid he calls Superhans null-scum. Absolutely no Town reason to make that vote. However there is scum motivation to appear like scum-hunting while not wanting to antagonize the person you effectively FOS.

Sesq

hit my radar solidly at 130. Others have mentioned and I agree the “why am I getting wagonned for what others have done” sentiment feels like scum expressing “caught for the wrong reasons” frustration. The sudden “here is my full reads list” also feels scum who didn’t realize skating by in the early game was not going to work for and 180ed into a “Super Town Mode”. Then let’s talk about the following posts –

Also, the one post that people seem to think is scummy (the one where I re-voted on Doom) was because he had those "lol im beginner" post, and thinking i was trying to wagon despite it being within the first 3 votes out of 7 required for lynch. Also, I was re-voting from what was technically pre-game, which I was unaware of.

Let’s look at the original vote in question –

VOTE: doomfeathers For tossing shade on me with no evidence.

And a quick follow-up post –

This is clearly OMGUS.

VOTE: Sesq

That was the most reasoning you'll ever see out of RVS.

I don’t see “He was LAMIST posting” in this original vote and the followup basically says “No reasoning to be had”. Even his revote didn’t say “Doom was LAMIST posting”. That logic only appeared after Sesq got pressure for the revote and piggybacked off other people’s logic (my own).

My post 15 was RVS (and not technically part of the game yet). My second vote on him was based on his LAMIST stuff.

No it wasn’t. 57 and 64 both say it was “same reasoning as earlier vote” which quoted above was “tossing shade”. Nothing about LAMIST at all. Looks very much like retroactive attempt to justify the bad hop on Doom.

Revan

shows all the signs of active lurking scum. He hasn’t posted anything think shows any intent to scum hunt. He asked me two questions (one on experience, one a pointless hypothetical) that cannot be used to parse alignment at all. And posts like 126 are just empty of anything that would from a Town perspective help him parse the game. 226 is also scummy for the same reasons that Friend Computer’s Mod vote is scummy – he’s calling someone out as potential scum but isn’t voting there when by page 10 there is plenty of content to vote on. I fully disagree with anyone who says “Revan doesn’t care –that’s Town”. It’s not. It’s playstyle which is NAI at all.

So that’s where I am currently. A secondary read that I’m contemplating scum on is Mozamis. There are far too many “Oh, that’s Town” reads that don’t make logical sense to me coming from his slot. One of the easiest things a scum team member can do is give out accurate Town reads on a flimsy basis … they know who Town is. But I see some interactions with my stronger scum suspects that don’t say Partner interactions that he’s on the back-burner until some flips and further posting further clarify his alignment.

having is a complete blank slate with his posting being sparse. I expect this to change regardless of his alignment as it doesn’t benefit Town for him to post as he is and as scum leaves himself open to being lynched for lurking if it continues.

Regarding the Daykill – while I’m not going to spend inordinate amounts of time in this post discussing it I think the fact that it was used so early does indicate that scum in general (and perhaps the Daykiller in specific) was under pressure. While Hawk didn’t look inherently scummy he certainly didn’t look unlynchable lock Town that early. So the odds that it was some combination of Sesq / Friend Computer as scum is pretty strong in my mind.

--

It's so we can be told apart. For instance if I believe that so-and-so is scum and Mukuro believes someone else is scum, you can go and say "Junko, what makes you disagree with your hydra head?" Especially because we might not always agree on reads!

Do you have a Hydra PT? If not PM Untrod Tripod and tell him that MoI said to have you ask for a hydra PT for both your hidden heads to keep any potential hydra dissonance out of the game thread. And then discuss your issues in that PT and resolve your reads.

Hydra dissonance is hugely Anti-Town.

Also @Junko – why were you disagreeing directly with Sesq’s reasoning for scum reading Mozamis and still voting Mozamis as “scum on the Sesq wagon”?

--

In any case, Lucca wasn't the killer unless kronos purposely waited to reveal the kill, since kronos posted a vote count since Lucca was last online.

You do know it is general site procedure for Mods with hidden daykills to allow scum to “queue up” the kill to a later time based on any number of criteria, correct?

--

I'm a bit concerned that scum didn't choose to shoot a more veteran player like MOI or WG, but as long as the "screwup" explanation continues to be plausible, i think that's an issue for a later time
-M

My question to you M is the following – given you’ve gone out of your way to hide your heads why don’t you perceive that you would be a target on what is a weak Burden of Proficiency basis? Also why don’t you include Having or Moz in your list given that they are clearly vets as well?

[Revan]

Hawk can you explain your vote on Sesq more in-depth? Thanks.