Newbie 1867 - Game Over

[Huntress]

Vote Count 1.9

vulcan logician (3) - Ircher, Draynth, ofrhz
Harambey180 (2) - northsidegal, vulcan logician
Ventriloquist (1) - Etromin
Etromin (1) - Ventriloquist
ofrhz (1) - Nachomamma8

Not voting (1) - Harambey180


With nine players alive, it takes five votes to lynch.

New deadline for Day One is Friday, 18th May, 09.00. BST, (in (expired on 2018-05-18 09:00:00)).

@Huntress: Could we have a 48 hour deadline extension?

I'd like to give NSG a chance to catchup and have an impact on this game day at the very least.

As the replacement was close to the end of day I will agree to this. Deadline has been updated accordingly.


Ventriloquist has been prodded.

[Harambey180]

I continue to see vulcan as super-noob-Town (with all the respect for vulcan, I can't help it). Super-noob, but Town. Now the question is: do I want a super-noob player in the game? Besides, is there a player that has a higher chance of flipping red? There's not really a much better option there either. Would a flip on vulcan give information (besides what happens in the night phase)? Yeah I think so.

If you think that someone is town, cling to them, defend them, and don't let them get lynched.

For one, if you are more concerned with lynching the player whose abilities you trust the least as opposed to the person who is more likely to be scum, then you'll always end up losing to players that are more skilled than you. Secondly, taking away easy mislynches from scum is, in my opinion, one of the better way to catch a skilled scum player; scum need a certain number of mislynches in order to win, and if town doesn't let them get those mislynches, they lose.

I was starting to doubt this myself as well because I also called Ventriloquist noob-Town earlier and I know not everyone can be Town. I felt I should at least mention that I am going to re-read to give myself a better view on the situation. Possibly that will make me change my mind. I thought I should add the mention of possibly hammering if that happens, but yeah, we should wait as long as we can for the people that have to catch up a little.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh jeez. I tried to get down and make a full readslist based on isos, but apparently I have a lot more other stuff to do then I expected. I don't know if I can keep up this game. How would I go about replacing out?

You can just PM Huntress or bold "replace me" in thread, typically.

However, I'd urge you not to replace out if you can manage it. Right now, it seems like you're simply trying to do too much; you don't have to run through ISOs and offer readslists on every single player. As of right now, the only thing I'd like from you is an ordered readslist with a one sentence explanation for why you put them where they are.

[Harambey180]

Oh jeez. I tried to get down and make a full readslist based on isos, but apparently I have a lot more other stuff to do then I expected. I don't know if I can keep up this game. How would I go about replacing out?

In the meantime, here's what I got up to while reading through Drayth's iso:

Spoiler: Draynth ISO reads, up to post 134

I know that the seeming juxtaposition of posts 51 and 58 looks like a scummy thing, but the opacity there was justified, in that he was attempting a pressure vote. I probably would have given at least some reasoning there.
Posts 61 and 66 feel uncomfortable to me. He seems to be doing a lot of confrontation without actually giving much to back himself up. I don't quite connect it to being scum, but it still strikes me as odd.
And in 71, he quickly says that his vote on me was for the reasons I guessed. He doesn't seem to produce any justification of his own, and that makes it look like he doesn't actually have any.
Okay, in 127 he produces some reasoning, but it's really kinda weak and he seems to be covering his back with the emphasis on it being his opinion and based on his experiences.

I'm happy that you mention this. Hopefully you can at least still keep up with this game until the end of this day, otherwise there's gonna be a messy and chaotic situation for the rest of us because of the replacements. So if you replace out, preferably during the night? Then you can still help us for a few more days and if it still remains too tough for you, you can always replace during the night when you don't have much to do.
I'd ask you the same that Nacho just did. You don't have to ISO everyone. When I made my readslist, I made a read based on how I felt during the course of the game and only ISO'ed to check if I was right about my read and maybe a few examples of what I meant to say. You don't need to do a full ISO analysis, only if you want to and have time for it.

[Draynth]

@Draynth:

Now that the game you played with ofrhz is over, could you talk about the similarities you see in that one compared to this one?

Sure

In the other game we played he sat back a lot, asked questions where he needed clarification on points and generated opinions based on the answers. He was never really in the face of the other players but made sure that his thoughts were known, which he also seems to be doing this game. If I have time I might try read one of his scum games to compare.

[Draynth]

If anybody else wants to compare here's a link to ofrhz's iso from Open 721.

On the same note, here is mine. (I was scum this game.)

[Draynth]

Also, as agonising as it is, I think I'm liking the vulcan wagon less after his recent posts.

Right now I'm really not sure what I think about Ircher.
I'm tr'ing ofrhz, nacho.
Reading the NSG stuff now.
Conflicted on Harambey due to the points that other people have been bringing up.

That pretty much leaves Ventril, Vulcan, Etromin.
I think my order of preference here would be Ventril -> Etromin -> Vulcan

What do other people think?

[Nachomamma8]

I'll look at ofrhz's other game when I'm back from work tonight.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think of my thoughts on him here?

[Draynth]

I found this reasoning to be a bit of a stretch. It doesn't play much into my overall read because of how early game it was (it's normal to push crappy reasoning at that point in time just so something happens), but I still don't like it.

I agree with you on this part, I had actually meant to mention it at some point but forgot to bring it up.

I don't like his extended push on Vulcan. It began with this. The implication is that Vulcan saying his joke was obvious is somehow equivalent to him testing the waters on an Ircher lynch, which is something I don't actually think is true. Vulcan said that he thought it was odd for anyone to take him seriously there, which is a definitive statement and not at all of the "what do you guys think of x?" nature of testing the waters.

I agree with you in the sense that he seems to be reaching with the whole "testing the waters thing", but I also think he's right to point out that vulcan only tried to vote ircher after I did.

I also don't like how it seems he's starting to sound like he has doubts here, but when it looks like Vulcan's wagon is going through, he just sort of ignores them and keeps on trucking.

What do you mean here?
Ofrhz wasn't voting vulcan at the time, was he?

In general, one of the stronger reasons I have for scumreading him is that his reads feel completely detached from his pushes, which comes across as extraordinarily unnatural. In his #150, Harambey is apparently his strongest scumread, but 60 posts later by Harambey's #210, Harambey is suddenly his strongest townread.

Although I agree it's weird he went from one end to the other on ofrhz's readlist, Harambey posted a lot around that time. Do you think that has something to do with it or do you still maintain he's scum faking reads?

[vulcan logician]

@Vulcan:

Part of the problem is that the second half of the pages still chiefly concerns page 1-3 events. I based my reads on notes I took from ISOs. I can't help it if those ISOs largely centered on page 1-3 stuff. IDK... at this point I am convinced there is at least 1 scum on my wagon.

If you think that everything that's happened in this game just has to do with pages 1-3, then I don't think you're trying to analyze the game too hard. Here, you get the sense that there's scum pushing your wagon through, and then you stop - if you feel there's scum pushing your wagon, then that's a fantastic starting point and a way to make them pay for attempting to push through a mislynch on you. If you roll over and accept a mislynch, you're doing the town a huge disservice; maybe they win anyways, but if you go down doing anything but kicking and screaming, then nine times out of ten, they're winning despite you instead of because of you.

Nice perspective, and thanks for having a little faith ... Kicking and screaming it is then! Let's use the extension to our fullest advantage.

This is the wagon on you (with Harambey's intent to hammer, just for fun):

Ircher, Nacho, Draynth, ofrhz, Harambey

Ircher is voting you and you're scumreading him primarily for misinterpreting your joke, which I believe is a lazy read. I've brought up earlier that I don't think most scum would view that joke as an opportunity to press for lynch (it's not the type of things lynches are typically made of) - did you have a response to that?

Yeah, I do. I'm not scumreading him for simply misinterpreting my joke. I got into his head a little bit. If he was scum, at that point in the game, he was looking to blend in. He needs to make it look like he's scumhunting. Here I come along, conf towning on page 1. What up wit dat? That was his opportunity, so he began "scumreading" me for it. It was almost like he was so intent on an opportunity to "scumhunt," that he failed to even read the post and figure out what its real intent was.

Of course, this is all from my POV. If he is in fact town, then I actually AM scumreading him for the simple misinterpretation of a joke.

He also has acknowledged a couple of times that his pushing there was unreasonable, and his case has been modified to something completely different now - have you made a good faith effort in understanding and engaging it? I don't think so.

Fair enough. I'm about to reread the entire thread and make a reassessment. I will make a deliberate effort to see what towniness I can in Ircher.

Draynth is scumleaning you because you agreed with his push on Ircher, which he disagrees with in retrospect. Do you think that's a valid reason for him to be pushing you right now?

On paper-

no.

But D1 being what it is, I guess that's an okay reason to push a wagon to begin with. Kinda low hanging fruit though. I could see scum fashioning together frail reasoning along that vein. I could also see town doing it out of D1 cluelessness.

I've talked about why I think that ofrhz's push on you is opportunistic and scummy. Am I insane? Am I on to something? Why?

I got the very same impression when I saw it. My gut on that was that it was

super

scummy. I was low-hanging fruit, an easy target. As you noticed before, I'm not kicking and screaming. Perhaps he thought he would capitalize on my resigned attitude and slip his vote in there unnoticed.

Harambey did say that he had intent to hammer you, but he also called you town while he did so. Why would he do this as scum? Don't you think he's just putting himself in a crappy position if you flip town here?

Very true. I'm starting to reconsider my scumlean on harambe. At the very least, he is a better D2 candidate.

More to come from me after a reread.

Quote tags fixed. ~ Huntress

[vulcan logician]

^ Sorry for the quote disaster.

@Huntress

could you fix for me, pretty please?

Done. ~ Huntress

[ofrhz]

12. In 63:

No, it wouldn’t be the same. A naked vote indicates some level of comfort with the vote because the person didn’t feel the need to defend it. But tacking on a “hello” indicates that the person didn’t feel comfortable naked voting yet felt like they had to say something, but couldn’t come up with anything less lighthearted than hello. It’s awk

I really disagree when the vote in question has a high likelihood of being an RVS vote. "Hello" reinforces the idea that the vote in question is an RVS vote. Now, a question for you--while your reasons seem

okay

, why is it that you appear to ignore the idea that it could be an RVS vote despite this being mentioned? As in, why are you persisting with this angle with the new given information?

This was the first time I explained why I thought it was a scummy post - and I explained this in response to being asked by Nachomamma. Before this, you and Nachomamma expressed disagreement with the hello vote as scum-indicative, but didn't really explain why, so it wasn't convincing.

19. In 132:

Yeah I think L-1 votes especially can be uncomfortable to drop because of how much scrutiny they can receive, and I think by saying hello, you were trying to mitigate that discomfort. It gutpinged me as scummy tbh. I do concede this is may be more personality indicative than scum indicative though

Okay, but you are still voting Alciel and haven't really elaborated on why that is the case given the above statement.

I tend to not blanket unvote unless someone is at L-1 or something. I didn't see an issue with keeping my vote on him, and when I made this post, I probably hadn't fully digested what everyone else had written to move onto someone else.

24. In 148:

Are you still scumreading vulcan for his jump onto your wagon?

More or less at the time. Is there any particular reason you ask?

143 was tripping me up because it sounded like you were no longer scumreading vulcan. I thought it was weird that you had dropped your scumread on him because you also thought his wagon jump was scummy (in addition to the misunderstanding from the joke). Anyway, this is no longer relevant, since I was misunderstanding

[ofrhz]

ofrhz:

I'm most certainly not as high on him as everyone else, and the more I read his ISO, the more I dislike him.

I found this reasoning to be a bit of a stretch. It doesn't play much into my overall read because of how early game it was (it's normal to push crappy reasoning at that point in time just so something happens), but I still don't like it.

I don't like his extended push on Vulcan. It began with this. The implication is that Vulcan saying his joke was obvious is somehow equivalent to him testing the waters on an Ircher lynch, which is something I don't actually think is true. Vulcan said that he thought it was odd for anyone to take him seriously there, which is a definitive statement and not at all of the "what do you guys think of x?" nature of testing the waters. Him attacking a shallow Vulcan read here seems convenient; it's not at all a difficult attack to make, and it's coming at a time when Vulcan looks like he'll be the lynch of the day. I also don't like how it seems he's starting to sound like he has doubts here, but when it looks like Vulcan's wagon is going through, he just sort of ignores them and keeps on trucking.

His first post taken by itself wasn't not testing the waters. It was that in conjunction with him jumping onto the Ircher wagon after Draynth did that made me think that. I don't think people have to be so obvious as to be like "hey do you think this is scummy?" in order to get a feel for the room.

I do agree that me scumreading vulcan's shallow reads is easy. That doesn't change the fact that they're shallow. Do you think we should be ignoring low-hanging fruit because they're easy? ngl I'm getting deja vu from a previous game, where people were pushing a "too dumb to be scum" argument for not scumreading a guy WHO TURNED OUT TO BE SCUM.

About the timing thing, at the time of my post, the deadline was rapidly approaching, and with my real life schedule, that meant I could feasibly only check into this game one or two more times before the end of the day phase. (I will acknowledge that is a failure on my part for not being active early in the game)

In general, one of the stronger reasons I have for scumreading him is that his reads feel completely detached from his pushes, which comes across as extraordinarily unnatural. In his #150, Harambey is apparently his strongest scumread, but 60 posts later by Harambey's #210, Harambey is suddenly his strongest townread.

The reason for my swing on Harambey was because I was originally scumreading him

for reasons that turned out to me baseless

. I thought he was walking back on finding Alciel scummy in 150, but it turned out he originally found Alciel's posts hard to understand (hence "awkward") and then stayed on Alciel to pressure lurkers in 152. I'm pretty sure I said Harambey encouraging lurkers to post was town (i.e. what I thought was scummy was actually me misunderstanding it, and when I did understand it, I thought it was town).
I could have made my thought process behind this more clear. But I also have other reasons for TR'ing Harambey.

He says that his reasoning for Vulcan here is apparently something that was pretty significant to his read on Vulcan overall, but it certainly didn't seem like something he felt strongly about at all. Him forgetting where his vote was placed *could* just be general detachment with the game, but in this context, I think that it's a good example of how detached ofrhz is from the things that he's saying this game, which is far more indicative of scum with no emotional attachments to the game whatsoever than town.

About me forgetting to vote, it's because I had to leave unexpectedly when I was in the middle of catching up. That's why I hastily typed up my read list in 218
Regardless, my general detachment from this game is a valid observation, but the truth is, I do not have as much time as I would like for this game. For ex, I'm usually much better at explaining my evolving reads (i.e. my flip on Harambey would usually not be an issue with me at all because I would explain it if I had more time for this game.) and if you read my ISOs in my completed games, I generally post a lot more.

I realize that me being busy is doing a disservice to everyone else in this game. If I survive the day phase, I will replace out during the night.

[Ircher]

I don't think I want to lynch ofrhz today.

[Huntress]

Looking for a replacement for Ventriloquist. If he posts before I find someone he can keep the spot.

northsidegal has been prodded.

[Harambey180]

I'm phoneposting this at school.
There's a busy time ahead of me so I'm probably going to be less active from this point onwards. Especially compared to how active I have been in the past cpl of days.
So if you're gonna wonder: 'Harambey, why have you become so less active?', it is because I have had loads of free time during the past week, and I won't have close as much free time for the rest of the game. Jsyk

[Ircher]

VOTE: Vulcan
Tbqh, I think we really just need a flip at this point. I don't think we are going to have much more discussion this day.

[Huntress]

TheRampage replaces Ventriloquist.

[TheRampage]

Checking in, will read the thread shortly

[TheRampage]

Okay, after reading through this first days stuff, I feel really uncomfortable lynching Vulcan. I feel like this bandwagon came on fast and for days, ofrhz was pushing people towards Vulcan and never even voted him until he was really close. Harambey showed intent to hammer, but if you really want to hammer, just do it. I feel like he posted his intent to do it and appear town by not doing it. ofrhz was really quiet for the most part of the game so far has kept a low profile so far this game. The two of them are brushing me wrong, but I think of the two of them, ofrhz seems the scummiest. So that is where my vote will go.

VOTE: ofrhz

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Vulcan
Tbqh, I think we really just need a flip at this point. I don't think we are going to have much more discussion this day.

1) You were already voting Vulcan.

2) Your impatience is anti-town. Getting something to work with wrt the replacements is important (and making sure that we're settled with replacements) before we go into night, and I'd argue that more alignment things have happened in the past couple of days than we've seen for a majority of the game. I also think it's a bit tone deaf to predict no more discussion when there's productive discussion happening right now.

[Nachomamma8]

Rampage, posting intent is a common practice here; saying that you intend to hammer gives the wagoned the chance to claim before we Lynch them (extremely important in this setup), and it gives everyone on the wagon a chance to reassess if the Lynch they are voting is the Lynch that they want (as in if someone is pressure voting they have an opportunity to pull their vote off).

[TheRampage]

Well, that is something that I am unaware of as it is my first game and I am unaware of everyone's experience level. Anyways, outside of that. I concur that Ircher warrants some looking into after this day phase for the same reasons you stated above.

[northsidegal]

Right, sorry about that.