I really don't like mastina or panzers claims and I like even less with how they claimed them. I really feel we should be putting pressure on mastina to force her partner to claim to lock down this if it's a Gambit.
The question I ask for either one is why claim?
Mastina - there was no need to claim this and if it is town it's just going to bait a night kill without any use. Trying to stay alive and have your partner claim with you in later phases helps the Poe more. There was just no reason to claim as town. Leads me to believe she is trying to get a pass and if they decide it's safe have her scum partner claim later. Either that or a possible recruit roll and target a non claimed person. Everything about this claim bothers me.
Panzer - I could buy the roll but not the motivation for claiming it. If he has to draw night actions and is essentially a third party until then, he would have a better chance of drawing them non claimed. No one is going to waste night actions on a claimed tp because it effectively made him a Miller. A investigation woudnt happen because the result would come back guilty and a protective roll woudnt target him because there is no way mafia is killing a tp. I think he would know this as town , so the fact that he claimed it negated most of the possibility of him transitioning to town.
If all this is true then it's a very easy way for a tp that has a different winncon than he specificed to skate by in the game.
I want mastinas partner to claim to move on from this or I'm going to blindly tunnel. I will not come off this. If someone verifies her claim it won't town lock them but tie them to the claim laters so if one flips town, the other is town conf. If scum we auto lynch the partner. But that's for later dayphases
So If someone verifies her , we should go to panzer and just lynch him out right. He won't get night actions to convert him to town so it's just bad to have him around either way or we catch a Gambit.
Imo
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:23 am
by Mikul
Also that being said
Both mastina and panzer have pressured each other
If mastina is town that also opens up a world where it's a scum panzer and not a tp
Cut could also be scum mastina and tp panzer. All around panzer is a better lynch just by the nature of his role but Im equally willing to Lynch mastina without verification. I don't know how these 2 rolls and the way they were claimed don't bother anyone else
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:44 am
by Tatsuya Kaname
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:10 am
by Mikul
O I thought I was on mastina
VOTE: mastina
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:35 am
by Deimos27
In post 243, Panther and Fox wrote:Hey Holden you wanna tell us how you got Tux town from your little interaction test with him? Because I got the exact opposite pings. To me that seemed like a very obvious reaction test. Maybe it looked more convincing at the time of it, but it's very doubtful. The entire post after like he was really gonna die just felt forced and perhaps a bit staged.
+1
Maybe Holden has some incredible understanding of Tux's psyche but to me that reaction test was legendarily obvious and in every single world that town!Tux suspects that it's a reaction test, he should say so for transparency. The question then becomes whether Tux as a player is likely or unlikely to suspect a reaction test. Whatever the exact probability, it's gotta be greater than whatever rand for rolling scum is in this setup, making him an easy scumlean for me on this tell alone.
, two heals on BM but it says three, is this correct?
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:36 am
by Panther and Fox
In post 251, Mikul wrote:
Mastina - there was no need to claim this and if it is town it's just going to bait a night kill without any use. Trying to stay alive and have your partner claim with you in later phases helps the Poe more. There was just no reason to claim as town. Leads me to believe she is trying to get a pass and if they decide it's safe have her scum partner claim later. Either that or a possible recruit roll and target a non claimed person. Everything about this claim bothers me.
I fail to see why this action could not come from town!mastina as well. We are all blinded by passion and emotion at times, but I do not believe that mastina is attempting to use her status as a claimed Mason to escape judgement. She has still been developing and explaining her opinions, and I believe these are the standards we should be judging her by, instead of the status of her roleclaim.
-Fox
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:41 am
by Deimos27
In post 256, Panther and Fox wrote:She has still been developing and explaining her opinions, and I believe these are the standards we should be judging her by, instead of the status of her roleclaim.
What if this were the status of her roleclaim: fake?
Would you judge her by that status?
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:47 am
by Panther and Fox
I was referring more to the unverified status of the roleclaim, but if it was proven fake then yes, I would certainly raise an eyebrow at the slot. Unfortunately, I've seen town players fakeclaim Masons before with disastrous results, although I'm not confident in my ability to meta read mastina.
In post 251, Mikul wrote:
Mastina - there was no need to claim this and if it is town it's just going to bait a night kill without any use. Trying to stay alive and have your partner claim with you in later phases helps the Poe more. There was just no reason to claim as town. Leads me to believe she is trying to get a pass and if they decide it's safe have her scum partner claim later. Either that or a possible recruit roll and target a non claimed person. Everything about this claim bothers me.
I fail to see why this action could not come from town!mastina as well. We are all blinded by passion and emotion at times, but I do not believe that mastina is attempting to use her status as a claimed Mason to escape judgement. She has still been developing and explaining her opinions, and I believe these are the standards we should be judging her by, instead of the status of her roleclaim.
-Fox
I'm specifically referring to the motivation behind claiming in that way. What would town mastina gain from that?
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:58 am
by Panther and Fox
Securing doctor protection or drawing kills from other power roles are explanations I have heard in the past for D1 Mason claims. I do not agree with them, but I know that differing opinions exist.
-Fox
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:29 am
by Mikul
In post 260, Panther and Fox wrote:Securing doctor protection or drawing kills from other power roles are explanations I have heard in the past for D1 Mason claims. I do not agree with them, but I know that differing opinions exist.
-Fox
I guess .I don't agree with it so much that I can't believe someone would actually do it lol
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:46 am
by Shiro
In post 251, Mikul wrote:Mastina - there was no need to claim this and if it is town it's just going to bait a night kill without any use. Trying to stay alive and have your partner claim with you in later phases helps the Poe more. There was just no reason to claim as town. Leads me to believe she is trying to get a pass and if they decide it's safe have her scum partner claim later. Either that or a possible recruit roll and target a non claimed person. Everything about this claim bothers me
Mastina claims masons 2/3 of the games they play as both alignments. Though you reasoning isnt wrong and tbh makes me townread you, it doesnt really stick for that specific case.
In post 251, Mikul wrote:Mastina - there was no need to claim this and if it is town it's just going to bait a night kill without any use. Trying to stay alive and have your partner claim with you in later phases helps the Poe more. There was just no reason to claim as town. Leads me to believe she is trying to get a pass and if they decide it's safe have her scum partner claim later. Either that or a possible recruit roll and target a non claimed person. Everything about this claim bothers me
Mastina claims masons 2/3 of the games they play as both alignments. Though you reasoning isnt wrong and tbh makes me townread you, it doesnt really stick for that specific case.
Can you clarify this more specifically for me
Do you mean she fake claims Mason as town as well?
Or are you saying if she's Mason as town she will outright claim it. That reads as if she will fake claim as either town or scum
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:38 am
by Battle Mage
In post 241, PJ. wrote:Oh i hadn't read yet because I couldn't get through bm sucking his own dick or w/e on page 2. You fakeclaiming mason again, having a bad reads list, and having an extremely strange role paraphrase makes my life pretty ez tbh.
VOTE: mastina
why do it yourself when others will do it for you?
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:41 am
by Battle Mage
In post 246, PJ. wrote:Battle Mage is not a good scum player. Battle mage was actually renowned for being incredibly not good at mafia.
Dude quit bashing me! Half my games are filled with people saying I'm shit...
My record as scum now is v good. I'm almost average as town statistically, but when i suck, i suck...
In post 232, mastina wrote:Shiro, well. Shiro I used to know how to read but have forgotten. I kinda lean town right now mostly off of gut and thinking, "this seems to be the Shiro I remember as town", but I admit, my memory is probably not reliable, thus how weak of a read it is.
I mean let us be honest, I have only post twice I would be highly surprised if anyone could read me off of that xD
^is scum
In post 249, Panther and Fox wrote:Good morning everyone. I see Panther has already arrived, so now I'll attempt to relay my thoughts as well.
Tuxedo Mask was the scumread we both agreed on, I heavily disliked the way he approached his question Holden. It seems quite clear that it was a reaction test, and he never posted a response to Holden's answer until he was later called out on this post. I also don't think the dayvig test Holden used on him was likely to work, as the odds of Holden actually daykilling a player so early into the game was close to zero. I found his mastina vote underwhelming as well, so I'd be interested to see how he reacts to mastina's latest posts.
The other player whose posting I found unsightly was Battle Mage's. In particular, his early aggression seems at odds with his reaction mastina's claim - namely the empty unvote. Battle Mage, if you were so willing to try and pressure us before your mastina vote, why were you unwilling to return there after the Mason claim changed your mind?
I can't say that I feel great about all of mastina's reads, but how they apply their logic seems consistent right now. I think that if mastina is scum, they'll struggle to maintain this consistency and it will become clear with time.
The hydra is giving me crap now!?
I've just been playing around and testing the water. I can't even remember how it went down. I imagine maybe I unvoted when I saw the mason claim because it's a stupid thing for scum to fakeclaim. Then later I changed my mind maybe and thought it would be worth pressuring her for a full claim. Then I got pocketted and Tux literally claimed scum, so clearly that's the priority elimination. Although I could easily jump to Shiro if that got some lubrication. If your question above is literally "why am i not voting for you?" it's because I have more important things to do than policy lynch hydras.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:41 am
by mastina
In post 244, PJ. wrote:she also has a history of fake claiming masons as scum.
Provably and demonstrably false.
I have a long established history of fakeclaiming mason to the point where it is a meme, sure!
I was town in every single one of those games.
I've never fakeclaimed mason as scum. Not once.
Now I've always said that I
could
fakeclaim masons as scum, it's not like me claiming masons is a trust tell where I refuse to fakeclaim mason as scum and always fakeclaim mason as town.
But it so happens that
so far
, out of probably three dozen mason claims, between actually being a mason and the numerous times I faked it, NONE were with me as scum. Absolutely none of them.
This might have some tie into my refusal to fakeclaim as scum because as scum I refuse to be caught in a lie, I believe the truth is the most deadly weapon for scum to have on their side because if scum have truth on their side, it means towns accusing them of lying are in the wrong, giving scum the ability to be sincere and genuine, something impossible to wholly and truly 100% fake. If scum are being 100% absolutely purely genuine and sincere because they're telling the absolute truth, they can become more town than actual town.
(But, again, it's not like I refuse to fakeclaim as scum as a trust tell on policy of, "I'm scum therefore I will not lie about my claim", so much as I truly and sincerely believe that the
optimal play
as scum is to not lie, and that lying would be suboptimal. I COULD decide one day to make that suboptimal play, it's just that I probably never actually will because I'll always favor the optimal play because it's, well, optimal.)
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:43 am
by mastina
(Now granted! I have, as town, claimed masons WITH scum. THAT? That I am guilty of, I will admit. It is an inherent risk in the mason gambit, and one that I am always prepared for. But Panzer didn't say I have a history of fakeclaiming masons with scum, he said I have a history of fakeclaiming masons AS scum. The former is true, the latter is not.)
In post 232, mastina wrote:Tuxedo Mask's early content felt forced, especially in regards to Battle Mage.
And Battle Mage's content has screamed scum setting up an excellent performance pretending to be town, doing things which look town, but which aren't actually town, feeling forced, stifled, and wholly artificial, calculated and precise every step of the way with no fluidity to his thoughts, nothing natural to them. His play is clinical here in a way I feel indicates he's probably scum.
Hello my good sir. Are you in the market for pockets? Because you've definitely got me pocketed. <3
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:48 am
by mastina
Oops. Forgot the most important quote in there.
In post 249, Panther and Fox wrote:Tuxedo Mask was the scumread we both agreed on, I heavily disliked the way he approached his question Holden. It seems quite clear that it was a reaction test, and he never posted a response to Holden's answer until he was later called out on this post. I also don't think the dayvig test Holden used on him was likely to work, as the odds of Holden actually daykilling a player so early into the game was close to zero. I found his mastina vote underwhelming as well, so I'd be interested to see how he reacts to mastina's latest posts.
The other player whose posting I found unsightly was Battle Mage's. In particular, his early aggression seems at odds with his reaction mastina's claim - namely the empty unvote. Battle Mage, if you were so willing to try and pressure us before your mastina vote, why were you unwilling to return there after the Mason claim changed your mind?
In post 232, mastina wrote:Tuxedo Mask's early content felt forced, especially in regards to Battle Mage.
And Battle Mage's content has screamed scum setting up an excellent performance pretending to be town, doing things which look town, but which aren't actually town, feeling forced, stifled, and wholly artificial, calculated and precise every step of the way with no fluidity to his thoughts, nothing natural to them. His play is clinical here in a way I feel indicates he's probably scum.
Hello my good sir. Are you in the market for pockets? Because you've definitely got me pocketed. <3
Oh I thought the Battle Mage wagon was larger than the Tuxedo Mask one. VOTE: Tuxedo Mask
Will happily vote either.
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:54 am
by mastina
In post 259, Mikul wrote:I'm specifically referring to the motivation behind claiming in that way. What would town mastina gain from that?
Surprisingly a lot.
I wouldn't say I am a mason in the way I did if it didn't provide benefits the way it does, and yet time and time again, it always seems to give me benefits.
If it aint broke, no need to fix it, and since it still gives me benefits...
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:00 am
by Mikul
To note I really don't like the idea of clemency because her meta is that she only fake claims "Mason as town". It's way to easy to claim that as scum at that point.
It reminds me of not mafias meta of either being or pretending to just be stupid. So people let him wifom his way out of anything. Because its "not mafia". Which is amazing if he is scum.
