Mini 2230: Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night: Game Over

[Annie Edison]

howdy

[Medea the Alien]

If you want to eliminate Manatee I'm not gonna stop you

I can be convinced. I just haven't been. Did you speak on it more why she is scum? Is that your #1 priority? I'm not exactly obsessed with a big fish. I'm just making waves.

I haven't yet. It's the next thing on my list. So far my chunks of time have been taken up with my overall readslist yesterday and my Lukewarm evaluation today. ManateeGirl consideration is for tonight or tomorrow AM. That's why I'm asking ffery to also look at her progression from the point where Dunnstral scumread her on out. I remember it giving me whiplash.

Also, bullshit. You're the Old Man and the Sea crossed with Captain Ahab. Don't make me go quotewall it up on that point.

--PA

P-edit: Look, Rhea, I get to have emotions too. I'm trying really hard to keep them out of my reads. I'm not getting at first glance how you can see Cabd as the biggest potential threat if scum but have no opinion of my potential play. I'm also trying really hard to understand. My initial understanding was that you were working from a shared knowledge pool, so to speak, and that while your interpretations might be different, it wasn't a literal 'I don't know things my Sister does" situation. Like I said, I have 'go back and read again with new knowledge' on my list of things to do this game.

I woke up at 1 AM literally screaming in pain last night. After we took steps to try to alleviate that, I saw your post in response to ffery's. I get to feel something about that. Like I said at the start of the day, I'm working hard not to let that color my take on everything. There are people I'm significantly more disappointed in if town here than you, doubly so given my understanding of your detachment from Niamh.

I don't have a problem with your planned communication style if that's how you feel most comfortable.

[Lukewarm]

to borrow some of the terminology of the group

I would eat my hat if titus flipped town.

I am down to take the LLD trade on Titus being scum.

[unwnd]

Give me a second and I have a wall prepared just for you

[Medea the Alien]

...I just realized I haven't eaten breakfast or lunch yet today. No more posting for me until that changes.

--PA

[Annie Edison]

i think for my next big game i need to focus on being able to play without having read the thread holyyy

lol usually it takes 1 full read for me to feel like wanting to post and 2 to be of any use

[Annie Edison]

(im caught up now tho)

[Annie Edison]

Luke I'm not sure you ever answered my question about how you've been approaching LLD throughout this game? and how that process has evolved for you

[Snarky Fishes]

(im caught up now tho)

Thoughts on the last 24 hours-ish?

[Medea the Alien]

..Speaking of 24 hours, my mother is staying with us her entire trip now, fuck. Will be limited posting PART but not all of tonight while we completely turn over the current kitten/changing room back into a guest bedroom.

[Lukewarm]

I basically offered my vote because you put the effort in to wanting to kill someone. Usually when a case is made it's common to just follow that lead because it's a big enough staple in the game to have something to track back to. Either you've got Titus pinned or scum can't ignore the gaping hole. Either one forces them to make more movement.

Yet..I don't really feel like that happened. I assume you believe it's because she's scum and people are trying to protect her, but is Titus enough of a net loss to stick their neck out for?

I don't think that the scum team is out protecting her. I think rhea is the only on who has expressed a town read on her since my case.

My question is, even if you don't buy my case, where are the scum votes joining what (I'm going to be a bit egotistical here) I think is the loudest and best case put out into the thread.

I put my whole case out there, and ffery joined my wagon, and you joined my wagon. And then silence.

I think that both you and ffery are town. So. Where are the scum voters? If anything, I think that this was an EASY wagon to slide onto and probably would not even get much flack for it on a Titus town flip. But they didn't.

My theory is that Titus is just scum. The scum team does not want to defend her, but they want to wait and see if the thread will change direction, so her partners are in the swaths of people who tried to vaguely pretend the case was not there

[Medea the Alien]

my mother is staying with us her entire trip now, fuck

Not that I hate her being here or freeing us up to DO THINGS for our anniversary slash Kiddo's birthday, just, she normally splits time between my place and my brother's place.

[Medea the Alien]

My theory is that Titus is just scum. The scum team does not want to defend her, but they want to wait and see if the thread will change direction, so her partners are in the swaths of people who tried to vaguely pretend the case was not there

Okay, so name names?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If you want to eliminate Manatee I'm not gonna stop you

I can be convinced. I just haven't been. Did you speak on it more why she is scum? Is that your #1 priority? I'm not exactly obsessed with a big fish. I'm just making waves.

I haven't yet. It's the next thing on my list. So far my chunks of time have been taken up with my overall readslist yesterday and my Lukewarm evaluation today. ManateeGirl consideration is for tonight or tomorrow AM. That's why I'm asking ffery to also look at her progression from the point where Dunnstral scumread her on out. I remember it giving me whiplash.

Also, bullshit. You're the Old Man and the Sea crossed with Captain Ahab. Don't make me go quotewall it up on that point.

--PA

P-edit: Look, Rhea, I get to have emotions too. I'm trying really hard to keep them out of my reads. I'm not getting at first glance how you can see Cabd as the biggest potential threat if scum but have no opinion of my potential play. I'm also trying really hard to understand. My initial understanding was that you were working from a shared knowledge pool, so to speak, and that while your interpretations might be different, it wasn't a literal 'I don't know things my Sister does" situation. Like I said, I have 'go back and read again with new knowledge' on my list of things to do this game.

I woke up at 1 AM literally screaming in pain last night. After we took steps to try to alleviate that, I saw your post in response to ffery's. I get to feel something about that. Like I said at the start of the day, I'm working hard not to let that color my take on everything. There are people I'm significantly more disappointed in if town here than you, doubly so given my understanding of your detachment from Niamh.

I don't have a problem with your planned communication style if that's how you feel most comfortable.

There's a difference between... personal experience and shared memory, yeah? What I'll say is this. Niamh doesn't have any real opinion of your scum game either, and is struggling to remember a time she saw you as scum, but at least has more direct interaction with you and Cabd in which she can extrapolate. What I have is the same as akin to....

Have you ever had an experience or memory where you were just the spectator? Where you have parts of the details but it wasn't you experiencing it, so it's like you were reading a book? That's what it's like, for us, if we weren't awake and sharing the experience with the person who is fronting at the time. Like this game, Niamh will remember emotionally vividly the moments where I was hurt, because that's when she paid attention and we co-fronted, because she was supporting me. But Niamh's not gonna have a good concept of this game outside of events in terms of memory storage, because she wasn't present for it. She's getting the cliffs notes or reading the book, but not watching the movie and seeing the actions.

Why I have a bit more sense of Cabd than you is that Cabd has spoken to us before individually, and also that Niamh DOES have vivid memories of Cabd's scumgame, and I remember seeing it. The way I write about it should be enough for you to understand what I get from that, so I'll do that for you. In my understanding, Cabd's scumgame is one in which he identifies weaknesses and winconditions in his team, proposes pathways to achieve those conditions, and aims to complete them with perfection. At least, that's how it was done in Tenet, is my understanding. The nuances of it are lost on me, but I also can tell from the way Cabd talks that Cabd is prideful too. Which is why I said earlier in the game that your hydra's switch, explicitly Cabd's, pre to post rule change set me off as a scum read because I felt Cabd was aiming for a certain kind of win condition, he'd plotted his course with his team, and post that, he needed to change his course, and that course required him to have more of a hand in things. So he came up with a good lie, and rode that into the sunset.

I'm hoping that gives you an understanding of what we share. Which is to say, if Niamh has no solid memory of you as scum, but has an impression of your skills... I'm not gonna have anything because those impressions are formed upon direct interaction.

Also, of course you're allowed to have emotions. I'm not saying you aren't, if I came across that way I didn't mean it like that. Also, sorry to hear you're in pain. It's more that I... didn't feel comfortable trying to have an argument about things and have that argument involve your emotional state, doubly so if I have to use silence to do so, because it'll be misconstued and there won't be enough clear detail. So, like... you're allowed to have feelings about that stuff, but I did explicitly express the opposite of what you were claiming, and trying to have that discussion is difficult if I can only point at things and wave my hands.

... this is why mutism sucks so hard. Not only do I need to deal with people not understanding that I'm my own person, and our shared experiences are just that, shared experiences. Not perfect recall and fluid unity. But also I can barely explain myself and I have not as much practice as the others interpersonally. I have some skill, borrowed from them, because we are one body and it's not like I don't see them... but it's not as easy. It's effortful, for me.

[Annie Edison]

(im caught up now tho)

Thoughts on the last 24 hours-ish?

I need to re-ISO titus. luke's case is admittedly pretty convincing, and I

really

didn't like that thing with Rhea appearing twice on her list. on its own like you said clerical errors/setup misunderstandings/"townslips" etc are so commonplace in site meta not to mention this very game that it cant really be read into. but when asked about it, Titus lied about having copy+pasted medea's list (her abbreviations for basically all the other slots were different, pooky/pooks, fferybell/snark etc), which is just......bizarre. but I don't like the mindset a white lie like that implies.

I don't think Medea has been approaching Rhea with any good faith and fmpov its been getting worse as the game progresses. I'm not familiar with PA but in my last game w scumCabd (a newbie with a tragic ending) he planned basically a full-game-length long con in his trajectory vs his partner, and this reminds me very much of that. im not saying they're s/s, i think Rhea is solidly town, but it's a method that's familiar to me of Cabd's scumplay, and I know they're both more than adept at faking emotion.

mmmm am i missing something? i feel i am

[Lady Lambdadelta]

to borrow some of the terminology of the group

I would eat my hat if titus flipped town.

I am down to take the LLD trade on Titus being scum

.

[?]

[unwnd]

Reading your ISO now, Medea

From the point up to #1184, you don't really gesture to Manatee much. There is even a post of yours where you agree with her in mindmelding with me. Your final initiation of a read starts here:

What I find interesting here is that this is the first place where she really acknowledged that her town read on us wasn't very strong. It had been pointed out to her for the previous hour of real-time that she actually purports to quite like the other players voting Medea. As town, doesn't that make you slightly re-evaluate the validity of the wagon? Like, as town, you claim to dislike a wagon. People point out that it's comprised of people you see as towny with a late-joining potential scum member. This...is actually a not surprising wagon comp for a wagon on actual scum. Especially on a 'strong' player who scum might be hesitant to bus. But there's no meaningful revisiting of our potential scumminess.

Consider this. A world where ManateeGirl is scum and also knows that the wagon is on town. She wants credit for disliking the wagon but doesn't feel like she can discredit most of the members of it. The first two votes in particular are hard to argue meaningfully against (Pooky being not logically-based, Rhea's because looking back at it I suspect I know exactly why she voted the Cabd post she did). Then you have Dragons, Sleez, and Lukewarm. Former two are mostly being townread (which reminds me of something for a non-wall post) leaving the latter one to prop up as her reason for the wagon characterization.

I'm actually going to stop walling here because Cabd has pointed me to the post where Sleez wants to wade in on ManateeGirl and I want her opinion before diving further down the rabbit hole.

In essence, you are saying here that Manatee is trying to look good by criticizing your wagon but not putting forward a reason to. You believe that she is thinking three layers ahead. First off? I know this is old news but have you seen Manatee and her depth of thought. This is not to imply she's beneath anyone (or even me) rather she speaks plainly. I don't think she comprehends the idea of yomi layers or doing things with coordination. She's all impulse and emotion, as with her scumgame in NQN. Why are you dissecting someone who clearly does not operate in the way you project them to. This is where I started to think you're full of it because

you

should have the common sense to understand not everyone thinks the same. I think Manatee is exactly what she describes and acts. I personally wasn't seeing the same scum behavior that got her caught in NQN. I would like Cabd to answer this if he may, even if you're the one who wrote it.

You don't have to trust us. More interested in you talking to us. Considering your 1190 but likely going to sleep on it. I do take your point, looking at the wall overall, that it does feel slapped together in places and there's a dissonance between the idea that she posted it to spur conversation and how non-committal a lot of it is.

One thing I do notice is that she says she wants to interact with Pooky more, yet I've seen none of that materialize.

Yeah well I get focused on doing my own thing and I forget there are people around me to lean on. Sue me. The endpoint in bold you're making here intrigues me. Nothing from either of you implies that you townread Pooky. Why haven't you considered that Manatee/Pooky could be a thing? Or are you not interested in thinking about associatives right now. The issue that stems from your read in that sense to me is that it's isolated to such a degree that you're only painstakingly moving it along. Keeping it relevant for presence but not engaging other variables.

Real quick as I've been following along but not sitting down long enough to post until now (and I'll be out again). Manatee showed up last night asking why we didn't have anything to say about her readslist. Less than two pages after I made an effortpost about how her readslist and her responses to the follow-up pushback intersected with a town vs. scum mindset. Her notes and trinkets post today left me cold. She still somehow likes our wagon except for Lukewarm but isn't really considering the merits of a scum read on us. Despite supposedly not liking how we're interacting with her. A lot of the rest of it is refuting arguments against her in a shade-casting manner. So this part of this hydra didn't, no.

I feel I'd just repeat myself with my point in the first paragraph in this wall response to you. The one about yomi layers.

I do want to say though, you two are surprisingly tepid towards Manatee despite being a scumread. Like, looking at all your posts inbetween laying down your reasoning, you're pretty amicable. I'm not telling you that your scumreads need to be treated like the enemy, but you've been given ample opportunity to put some more pressure onto her and you haven't. Why? Cabd mentioned he doesn't want to be a bridge burner or whatever but how are you still keeping this up if you don't go out there in the field to get data. Where's your logic coming from besides..conjecture. Guessing how Manatee is feeling and not like asking her. I feel you're missing a crucial aspect of having a scumread which is usually I don't know. Interacting with a person. Questioning their motives in real time. I can't entirely trust the process because to me it seems to come out of nowhere. I'm going to stop your ISO here because I think at this rate I've addressed why I don't trust you and why I don't trust your scumread of Manatee.
--
This is also why I would say I have been less keen on eliminating her because I don't really see you bussing Manatee for cred with the way you've treated her, given that it would be foolish. You're not really presenting your Manatee argument as something you want to get false credentials on personally. I would say that when it came to You/Manatee my courtesy towards her was to see what you'd do about it. Yet what you've done is seemingly compile evidence yet hold back on, as I've said, completely burying her. Why? If this is your biggest scumread then rally the troops because you're losing grasp of it and I'm starting to think you don't actually care.

[Annie Edison]

LUKEY

more relevant now than ever, bud

And the "I currently have too few thoughts on them to even put them in null" - aa9, lld, spiffeh, titus

how have you been approaching lld's posts?

[Lukewarm]

My theory is that Titus is just scum. The scum team does not want to defend her, but they want to wait and see if the thread will change direction, so her partners are in the swaths of people who tried to vaguely pretend the case was not there

Okay, so name names?

That is over half that lobby.

People that looked at my case and voted - Fishes and Unwnd

People that have indicated that it was a good case, but never followed through with a vote include:

you (medea) and the dragons

People who have not commented on the case at all:

Manatee, AA9, Dunn, Annie,

People who have vocally disagreed with my case : LLD and Pooky.

[Lukewarm]

to borrow some of the terminology of the group

I would eat my hat if titus flipped town.

I am down to take the LLD trade on Titus being scum

.

[?]

The LLD-Deal, as far as I know it means that I am sure enough to line up my own elim the next day if I am wrong

I didn't ACTUALLY mean the LLD-deal where one murders you the next day if your read is wrong. I mean more "this is the sort of thing where it's LLD-levels of sure of self" but I see where you go to where you are now from that.

That said, the LLD deal does generally make the assumption that if the guesses is wrong they'll be around the next day.

[Lukewarm]

LUKEY

more relevant now than ever, bud

And the "I currently have too few thoughts on them to even put them in null" - aa9, lld, spiffeh, titus

how have you been approaching lld's posts?

Mostly reading and absorbing, but not doing much personal interaction with her. Although, I have made a point of interacting with her a bit more recently

[Lady Lambdadelta]

to borrow some of the terminology of the group

I would eat my hat if titus flipped town.

I am down to take the LLD trade on Titus being scum

.

[?]

The LLD-Deal, as far as I know it means that I am sure enough to line up my own elim the next day if I am wrong

I didn't ACTUALLY mean the LLD-deal where one murders you the next day if your read is wrong. I mean more "this is the sort of thing where it's LLD-levels of sure of self" but I see where you go to where you are now from that.

That said, the LLD deal does generally make the assumption that if the guesses is wrong they'll be around the next day.

[X + X != ✓]

[Annie Edison]

LUKEY

more relevant now than ever, bud

And the "I currently have too few thoughts on them to even put them in null" - aa9, lld, spiffeh, titus

how have you been approaching lld's posts?

Mostly reading and absorbing, but not doing much personal interaction with her. Although, I have made a point of interacting with her a bit more recently

what's your read there? how has it evolved throughout the game?

[Lukewarm]

LUKEY

more relevant now than ever, bud

And the "I currently have too few thoughts on them to even put them in null" - aa9, lld, spiffeh, titus

how have you been approaching lld's posts?

Mostly reading and absorbing, but not doing much personal interaction with her. Although, I have made a point of interacting with her a bit more recently

what's your read there? how has it evolved throughout the game?

Was null for a long time, but she generally started drifting town later on, because it seemed like a lot of our thoughts were aligning, and the whole idea that similar thoughts implies similar alignments.

We have drifted apart wrt to Titus, but I actually think that scum!lld would not blatantly stand in the way of her partner at this juncture, so still leaning town.

She is not one of my stronger reads, but leaning town. But also positioned in ways that I might question that alignment given certain flips.

[unwnd]

I basically offered my vote because you put the effort in to wanting to kill someone. Usually when a case is made it's common to just follow that lead because it's a big enough staple in the game to have something to track back to. Either you've got Titus pinned or scum can't ignore the gaping hole. Either one forces them to make more movement.

Yet..I don't really feel like that happened. I assume you believe it's because she's scum and people are trying to protect her, but is Titus enough of a net loss to stick their neck out for?

I don't think that the scum team is out protecting her. I think rhea is the only on who has expressed a town read on her since my case.

My question is, even if you don't buy my case, where are the scum votes joining what (I'm going to be a bit egotistical here) I think is the loudest and best case put out into the thread.

I put my whole case out there, and ffery joined my wagon, and you joined my wagon. And then silence.

I think that both you and ffery are town. So. Where are the scum voters? If anything, I think that this was an EASY wagon to slide onto and probably would not even get much flack for it on a Titus town flip. But they didn't.

My theory is that Titus is just scum. The scum team does not want to defend her, but they want to wait and see if the thread will change direction, so her partners are in the swaths of people who tried to vaguely pretend the case was not there

Intriguing thought

So you think Rhea is just wrong to townread her but not necessarily defending?