Warehouse 13: The Mafia Game (Game Over)

[Spiffeh]

Titus, can you tell me who your 2-3 strongest scum reads are and why?

You're devoting most of your posts to telling MathBlade why he's wrong, but you actively think he's Town. I'm concerned that you're doing this instead of pushing scum or visibly trying to get reads on others.

[Spiffeh]

because my solve right now looks like Dgb, cakez, and borkjerfkin

We are on the same page regarding bork and DGB. I want one of them dead today, preferably bork.

Cakez I still think is Town and I believe you are lending too much credence to his ability target when I think his Day play beyond that is incredibly Town, especially being the counter wagon to flipped scum mastina yesterday.

[Spiffeh]

I am not here for the SirCakez vs. Pooky and Mathblade vs. Titus 1v1's. I would not be surprised if all four are Town and that is currently where I'm leaning. I've already explained my reasons for townreading Cakez and Mathblade and nothing has really changed. Pooky and Titus are a little more iffy but not even close to where I want to lim today.

I will provide the caveat that I am exhausted defending Mathblade as he continues to bury himself and waste valuable posts addressing every post against him and if it takes his mislim to get people like Bell/LLD/GI to focus elsewhere than I'll let it happen, under the condition that bork/DGB get a lot of attention and pressure today. I'll still probably complain about it as it happens though. Mathblade, take Pooky's advice and condense your posts, please be less reactionary. I think you have some good points I end up agreeing with (Titus/mastina scum buddy pair based on their play yesterday is also something I've considered) but a lot of your good-posting gets lost in the shuffle when you get in back-and-forths with people and eyes just start to glaze over.

Pooky was not at all readable to me yesterday, the only thing I felt any type of way about was his late hard push against SirCakez when his counter wagon ended up flipping scum. It was bad and reminded me of Tenet where he was scum and hard pushed the Flavor Leaf mislim to get the Day to end early.

However, I feel that Pooky's posts regarding Cakez today have a genuine emotion and conviction that was lacking in his pushes as scum in Tenet. In Tenet he recognized that he had some pull with the playerlist and used that to his advantage by "RARA"-ing his way to a mislim, he basically trolled his way to a hammer on Flavor Leaf. Here, he seems like like he believes in what he's pushing (2371 is an example of a post that makes me feel this way). I also don't think his reach out to Mathblade to cut down on posting is something Pooky bothers to do as scum and I that post felt really good tonally.

Titus I still go back and forth on but I really liked her transition to wagon analysis with her recent post about Bell/bork possibly being bus votes on mastina, and am starting to buy that her focus on Mathblade is because she is extremely frustrated with him rather than bashing him to protect herself from providing content.

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: borkjerfkin (willing to vote DGB too as that might be more attainable)

If I were to redo my reads list I would put borkjerfkin in null, I may have overcorrected a bit when he reacted well to my initial pressure on him. I'm sensing a lack of urgency from his recent posts? Like he doesn't really care? We're so close to deadline and I feel like as town he'd notice how divided the wagons are and be more active in gathering players like ffery and Tammy and trying to lockdown the best lim for today, but he's kinda just going with the flow.

Again, could just be me having unfair expectations, but I feel like there's something missing here that was present in Tenet and I can't put my finger on it.

This still applies. I still feel he phoned it in as the Day was wrapping up and feel he would try to work with town reads (especially ffery) to secure a good lim and he was kinda just around, halfheartedly pushing Titus until swapping his vote to mastina at the end of the Day.

Of the final lim wagon on mastina I think his vote is the most likely bus vote. He mentions being spooked by the sudden votes on mastina here and lists myself, Prism, and sangres as the votes that scared him here, which is almost unbelievable to me coming from town!bork. It would be a different story if bork had continued to vocalize his paranoia and persisted with this train of thought for the rest of the Day, or attempted to engage with myself, Prism, or sangres about our votes on mastina, but this is the last time he mentions mastina or the three of us until he naked votes mastina at the end of the Day.

I understand that we were condensing on viable wagons because the Day was over in a matter of hours, but the fact that he votes mastina without addressing his earlier paranoia reads to me like he recognized calling us out for the mastina votes was a mistake as her lim was becoming more likely and tried to brush it under the rug by being on the inevitable scum flip.

I completely agree with Tammy about his response to me here. As I've already said, it should be clear based on my stances at the end of the Day why I am singling him out over Tammy, but instead he tries to discredit my suspicion by deflecting onto Tammy.

@bork, who do you want limmed today and why? On top of everything I've stated above, I feel a lot of your posts today are surface level and I have no idea where your head is at.

[MathBlade]

because my solve right now looks like Dgb, cakez, and borkjerfkin

We are on the same page regarding bork and DGB. I want one of them dead today, preferably bork.

Cakez I still think is Town and I believe you are lending too much credence to his ability target when I think his Day play beyond that is incredibly Town, especially being the counter wagon to flipped scum mastina yesterday.

Spiffeh — I would encourage you to sort in Cakez/Dunn/Titus first rather than outside it. The reasons I encourage you to look there are many:

A> If you assume Cakez is town, then this means Titus+Dunn must likely be scum together or your counter wagon to Mastina is wrong by definition, it would simply be another wagon. If you assume Titus + Dunn, then your reads on both Bork and DGB are incorrect. Also, if you maintain Cakez is town then scum intentionally bussing Mastina would likely be Prism or Grey because intentional busses are at the start of the wagon.

A2> If you assume Cakez is scum, then the question becomes why Cakez over Mastina? Cakez claimed a PR which would be pretty simple. Cakez’s check of DGB/quiet does not make sense for a town player. The slot was inactive. The check of the DGB/Quiet slot would not be indicative. Checking me or Titus would have been since we claimed VT with no artifact. Cakez’s dayplay imho is atrocious. Quite literally the only thing imho going for him is his flavor claim.

B> I think DGB is town. I specifically put a crumb in there and I thought Pooky was a mason. Almost immediately after that DGB sheeps me. Therefore, I believe DGB is actively reading the thread and therefore likely town.

C> I thought bork was initially weak but his play has gotten progressively better. I struggle to see what would merit a look at Bork beyond the narrow PoE of Cakez/Dunn/Titus.

This PoE of those three helps solve D1 incredibly. What’s probably likely is scum thought they could miselim Pooky and then tried me when I defended him hard today.

This means Titus is either scum or doing scum’s handiwork. This another implication that Cakez is likely scum.

D> Anyone looking outside of Cakez/Titus/Dunn today imho needs to have a reason why their PoE is that small or a justification why all the Cakez wagon was all town to justify into their reads. Reads should imho start with facts because facts can’t be wrong and can’t be manipulated by scum without looking horrendously bad.

E> I kinda think Titus, then if Titus flips scum, Cakez. If Titus flips town then scum bussing Mastina hard becomes possible since she was on VLA but I really don’t see the Mastina white knighting Titus argument here, especially with how Titus and SirCakez both continue to deny the obvious. They need Pooky to be a potential miselimination and when I blew that up by suggesting Pooky mason they just ignored it. When you have to ignore major setup spec that is likely true to keep your scumreads that is bad.

F> If Titus+Cakez are scum, then we would be looking at the front of the Mastina wagon likely for the third remaining scum or possibly a deep wolf like Spiffeh. Bell, would be likely lock towned if Cakez is scum due to having Mastina + Cakez in his PoE earlier. It’s Bell’s earlier ISO that makes him lock town more so than later and I really think Titus is scum here looking for threats to try to push rather than a viable one because her and Cakez are backed into a corner.

G> When you have a player denying what is almost certainly reality without a PR reason you need a damn good one to hop outside of that imho.

I have my computer coming in today or tomorrow so I likely will be afk a bit but please please narrow focus in Cakez/Titus/Dunn. If you think Titus is misguided town please vote in Cakez or Dunn. If you think all the Cakez wagon is town then please explain why with your argument for where we should go.

[SirCakez]

VOTE: bork
I'm still not sure what to make of Spiffeh but I'll sheep this for pressure until I can get my Pooky case out
Bork has been underwhelming all game

[MathBlade]

I like MathBlade for town.

I don't think you can argue Dunn was not a counter to Mastina and co at some points
My point with Pooky is that Dunn was not a counter at the prime late-stage moment where it was Mastina or me

M

aking

a

ll stupid options never happen is part of my job.

Because on mobile look at the next words stupid options never..It’s literally Mason.

Please stop trying to make Pooky happy.

typo here should be happen.

Dunn wasn’t an organic counter.

It was Dunn v Me then people left me and Dunn but Dunn wagon was just always a thing.

Apologies for the double post I am on mobile. So citing the post how I had to was difficult. DGB was asking me for clarity and alluding to the typo in this post. I really think it is town and would encourage wagons elsewhere. I get this logic is flimsy but DGB/Bork to me are superficial wagons and we should really focus on where scum likely is based on flipped slots so we can figure out what happened D1 and use that to inform reads.

Is it possible I am wrong on DGB and/or Bork yes? But the odds of both are slim and with Cakez voting Bork the last thing I want is a Bork wagon.

[Spiffeh]

DGB's entrance was not good. I don't mind the Mathblade townread but I highly doubt it chooses Mathblade over like anyone else on this playerlist to attach itself to and sheep. Quiet was a scum lean based a lot on ffery/Prism's characterization of his Town play in the Newbie game, and DGB's current play does not make me feel better about that slot.

And since people seem to want to speculate about the night kills, I will throw in my two cents:
- The sangres night kill doesn't really surprise me or mean anything to me, probably done because ffery was obvtown and to prevent town!Nacho from coming into the game with pretty much a clean slate (although it's not lost on me that ffery left the Day not townreading bork and devoting a lot of time to reading quiet with a mostly negative result).
- The Kitty night kill is a little more out of left field for me. I feel there were a lot of other obvtown players that would make more sense as night kills. This is pure speculation and should be taken with a grain of salt, but my theory is that the artifact scum chose Night 0 had a killing ability. Kuribo and DGB have a significant game history and I think kuribo has close to a 100% read rate on DGB, so I think the scum team recognized this when DGB replaced in and killed Kitty to protect DGB.

After bork and DGB, Dunn is still on my radar and not at all a town read but I thought his entrance today was decent. LLD was a huge reason why he escaped death yesterday and I don't think he'd jeopardize that as scum by going after her for wanting the artifact. Battle Mage, GreyICE are eh for me but I'm not really actively scum reading them anymore. And Titus I have been wishy-washy on but ultimately think she's Town.

I should probably work now.

[Titus]

You're devoting most of your posts to telling MathBlade why he's wrong, but you actively think he's Town. I'm concerned that you're doing this instead of pushing scum or visibly trying to get reads on others.

Correcting Math is my way of pushing Pooky. With Math screaming Pooky is a mason, it's very hard to get an elimination there. Pooky is scum by PoE unless Cakez is scum. I struggle to see an all town counterwagon on town (well after mastina) when scum could have switched to Sir Cakez.

The only way SirCakez and Pooky are both town is scum being ineffectual and unable to jump. That leaves us with a lurker scumteam, including DGB.

DGB I felt was scum separately. Her entrance just saying Math is town and then leaving shows zero scumhunting. Did she read the thread? Does she have thoughts? It's hard to push her when she doesn't post and there's someone posting they are better than everyone else.

That leaves the last slot, which is likely on mastina. Where is the catch though? If Cakez is town, like I suspect, then it would likely be somewhat towards the front, preventing a Cakez swing. If Cakez is scum, then the vote is towards the back end. Of course either way could be in the middle, which is why I focused there.

[Spiffeh]

I have my computer coming in today or tomorrow so I likely will be afk a bit but please please narrow focus in Cakez/Titus/Dunn. If you think Titus is misguided town please vote in Cakez or Dunn. If you think all the Cakez wagon is town then please explain why with your argument for where we should go.

Hi, I appreciate your post addressing your concerns, but this is exactly what I DON'T want to do. I've explained that I am townreading Cakez and kinda Titus and want to move the discussion to scum reads that I am more confident about and aren't really on most radars.

Dunn is someone I'm still not happy with, but feel he has enough attention where he probably won't endgame if he is scum. Bork and DGB are players who I am scum reading and have potential to go far if their detractors are killed off (see my nk speculation above), so I think focusing on them is the best use of my time.

Also @Cakez you don't have to qualify every post of yours with "idk about Spiffy" when you've agreed with me on like every push I've made this game.

Every post over like 250 words is probably something I don't bother to write as scum. I promise. Start to accept it and knock off your paranoia, it's starting to irritate me.

[SirCakez]

I think KTT was somebody's failed yolo vig shot...the artifacts we have seen so far (the comb/trident) are nowhere near as strong as a vig shot

[SirCakez]

Every post over like 250 words is probably something I don't bother to write as scum. I promise. Start to accept it and knock off your paranoia, it's starting to irritate me.

[Spiffeh]

That leaves the last slot, which is likely on mastina. Where is the catch though? If Cakez is town, like I suspect, then it would likely be somewhat towards the front, preventing a Cakez swing. If Cakez is scum, then the vote is towards the back end. Of course either way could be in the middle, which is why I focused there.

What are your thoughts on bork? Are you willing to vote there today?

[Prism]

As mentioned before, I have some problems with the Bork push, and I think I could pretty easily respond to some of Spiffeh's points.

That said, I think Bork can go further than he has here, and I don't see the utility in going out of my way to protect him. He is nowhere near his capability as town and can absolutely go further, and I'd rather him rise to the challenge.

[SirCakez]

help us make him do that Prism

[Prism]

I'm not going to vote him at this time. I don't anticipate this changing. I don't believe in putting arbitrary and transparent pressure votes. Telling him that I think he's far from what he's capable of as town, and that he can do more and go further than he has so far, is my way of helping.

[Prism]

(Don't take this as saying "You're playing badly" or "Not making any good points" Bork-you're playing fine, but you can do better than fine)

[Spiffeh]

Prism, I really appreciated your posts on the previous page, particularly the Titus townish case. My issues with Dunn from yesterday still remain the same, so you can ISO me for those. I admit his early spat with LLD felt decent to me mentioned, but he hasn't really done enough to change my mind beyond that. I think I've put enough pressure on Dunn to the point where he probably isn't going to be overlooked moving forward which is why I want to focus on bork/DGB today. If a Dunn wagon crops up and bork/DGB can't get enough support I would happily join it.

[SirCakez]

@Spiff my new thing with Dunn is that he's right that he was a counter to Mastina at some points

[DrippingGoofball]

If you iso Prism this game. The title of the work "The agony and ecstasy of being in the zone." written by town Prism. Pops up before their first posts do.
That's it. That's my town case for town Prism. If you keep that in mind it fits. So the scum team is just going to have to night kill them I guess or they can live with that town albatross around their neck all game.

I agree that she's town.

[penguin_alien]

Prodding Lady Lambdadelta

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I exist

[SirCakez]

allegedly

[Prism]

Cakez's progressions on Pooky and bork line up and make a lot of sense, I also would have expected him to be a bit more forceful when it came to voting mastina rather than the "No other choice " that resulted. Him/Pooky's slapfight both look at each other from the worst perspective and don't really give a lot of benefit of the doubt, ie. putting the cart before the horse. A lot of reactions felt confident and natural to me, eg. the "watch me get voted because this dude in the show doesn't perfectly line up", which we've been over Cakez improving his scumgame's confidence before but iuno.

He's not hard town but I feel pretty eh on this vote too. Really struggling to see where the other scum are here, they're playing quite well. Guess it's onto revisiting Battle_Mage then Bork/Dunn/Spiffeh?

[Prism]

Actually, I think I've been reading too much and need to give a more extended break, my Cakez tracking is already lacking in rigor and a bit lazy.

Safely Town
=======
Bell
LLD

Very Town
=======
Tammy (Really a lot of gut here, ideally nail down completely)

Pretty town
=======
borkjerkfin (See discussion with Tammy)
Spiffeh (Great reads, but high scum skill ceiling, need to review)
Pooky (Recent posting A+, didn't spend much time sucking up to 2181 table Day 1)

Townleans
=======
Battle_Mage (Slot has gotten a free pass from me for tonal reasons for like, eons, need to review)
Cakez
Dunnstral (+town Day 2 start, meh everything else)

MathBlade
=======
MathBlade (Honestly probably town but send help)

Null/kinda town but not enough
=======
Titus (More concrete reads/reevals please)

Scum
=======
quiet/DGB
GreyICE

Of these, B_M, Spiffeh, Dunn are the people that are high priority for review/new placements when I'm game with Bork/Tammy also kind of needing it.