Mafiascum.net

@thor: would you agree or disagree w my bg use there btw? I figured it was the mechanically correct play, what do you think?

In post 2587, MichelSableheart wrote:@shadow: vanilla cop was only useless because you were awesome with your nighttargets. If we had killed thor as I suggested night 1, we would have needed your investigations to find those investigative roles ASAP.

@chilledtea: any chance of the review/mod topic? I'm quite interested to see that discussion as well.

The review topic will be made public by N I think. We will have to wait for it. As for the mod topic, I used the review topic itself as the mod topic since I didn't want to have a backup and it was my first game.

A lot of thanks to Marquis and CFJ for helping out with a million different things during the game.

Was pretty sure giga was town but i had no doubt that both of u were town. :p

Bging n was the correct move and the only thing town needed to do was lynch Mich.

In post 2594, mhsmith0 wrote:Lol at shadow bitching about balance in dead thread when scum got two useful PRs while town PRs were all shitty and countered by scum power. Scum sided setup by ms standards.

?? Town PRs weren't useless at all. Tracker+gunsmith+BG+vig

Any guilty the gunsmith got would be mafia because the Vig could self clear. Almost as good as cop.

In post 2593, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:fushehdufjen

wp michel, really sorry elyse : (

also ftr @mhsmith I think NOT using your bodyguard was the optimal play. even though Nero was conf!town, the information we would have gotten from the kill after Nero would have been useful. plus we might have needed your town skillz to win

Mh didn't think it was Mich either so nah not really.

mh probably didn't read much of the game.

Gunsmith nerfed by mafia doc (false inno)
Vig BADLY nerfed by mafia doc (screws odds of making a correct shot but, while a bad shot can still go through)
Tracker BADLY nerfed by two visiting scum powers (false innos)
Bg is a trash power
Ascetic is a trash power

Oh and gunsmith/vig/bg were each 2-3 shots. Give scum team an encryptor or maybe a 1-shot bp instead of full doc. Full doc is super OP against town lineup, and vanilla cop helps a lot too. Too much scum power, while town power is BADLY misaligned and prone to getting explicitly countered by scum powers.

In post 2606, chilledtea wrote:mh probably didn't read much of the game.

This is true

I saw Nero as the vig likely clear (MAYBE an sk but unlikely), and was hoping he actually had shots left (likely maybe odd night vig or something?) and was slow rolling.

In post 2592, Shadow_step wrote:Also, doesanyone knows how to apply to become a setup reviewer? I'd like to do that.

Easiest way to start is in reviewing closed games in queues with lower review requirements (Mini Theme, Micro Theme); that's how I started. If a mod's looking for a review for a closed game, they ask for help in this thread. (Note that the OP is slightly outdated; normally the reviewers PM the mod and the mod creates a PT for the review, although the process can vary by mod.)

For queues with a higher review standard (Large Theme, Normal), you need some amount of review experience already and (in the case of Large Themes) to have run a Large Theme yourself. Applying to the Normal Review group is done via PMing the Normal list mod (although they may well PM you first once you've built up a reputation as a reviewer).

For Open setup reviews, see this forum. You can just drop in on someone else's setup and post a review. Because there's no reason for Open reviews to be done in secret, it's a good place to see how reviewing works. However, reviews there tend to be more sporadic and less thorough than in other queues, for some reason.

But seriously, a 2-shot vig against a full mafia doc, with no ability for town to get a no kill night, is super sketch wrt balance. Odds of vig landing both shots to keep it at evens is poor. And towns investigative power was mediocre and in both cases compromised by potential for false innos.

Maybe if giga was ascetic 1-shot bp that could have helped a bit, would make the game more prone to get back to odds. But even there, I'd say too much scummpower by MS standards.

In post 2602, Transcend wrote:Was pretty sure giga was town but i had no doubt that both of u were town. :p

what do you mean PRETTY SURE i played in your slot...

also i agree with mhsmith wrt to balance, vigs in small setups are really -ev and I think we ended up needing that second ml, even if it would have been wasted on Gerry.

We couldn't do our NA and NK at the same time. So the 2 false inno for tracker isn't a thing.

I'd still say Vcop is useless. Knowing if a person is a PR or not only to kill them on the next night. How does that help meh.

Remember that mafia cannot use more than one action as an individual, during night.

Vigs are +EV, but vig needed more shots. Full vig would have been fine. 2-shot vig way too little given other powers.

Wrt scum powers, night one you have doctor save cop or goon, cop targets whoever, goon kills. Only after a scum death (rare d1) does that really matter. V cop useful as much to id vanillas who are lynch targets as PRs who are night targets.

And yes, if a tracker n1 sees someone visiting someone else who doesn't die, that's a false inno. TWO scum powers capable of this.

In post 2600, mhsmith0 wrote:@thor: would you agree or disagree w my bg use there btw? I figured it was the mechanically correct play, what do you think?

There was nothing too terrible about it.
BG is a terrible town role though, and has very limited functional uses - yours was okay.

Although honestly, tracker/gunsmith can both out the vig, and v cop can do so for scum, and doc can stop vig shot, and bg (if crappy) can accidentally save scum. Basically every power other than ascetic was set up to be anti-vig; at that point a full jk is better than vig conceptually, and even more so than a 2-shot vig.

In post 2615, Thor665 wrote:

In post 2600, mhsmith0 wrote:@thor: would you agree or disagree w my bg use there btw? I figured it was the mechanically correct play, what do you think?

There was nothing too terrible about it.
BG is a terrible town role though, and has very limited functional uses - yours was okay.

I'm not remotely surprised I lost though, that does seem to be the pattern for me. The occasional lucky town win I didn't deserve would be kinda nice tbh

In post 2609, callforjudgement wrote:

In post 2592, Shadow_step wrote:Also, doesanyone knows how to apply to become a setup reviewer? I'd like to do that.

Easiest way to start is in reviewing closed games in queues with lower review requirements (Mini Theme, Micro Theme); that's how I started. If a mod's looking for a review for a closed game, they ask for help in this thread. (Note that the OP is slightly outdated; normally the reviewers PM the mod and the mod creates a PT for the review, although the process can vary by mod.)

For queues with a higher review standard (Large Theme, Normal), you need some amount of review experience already and (in the case of Large Themes) to have run a Large Theme yourself. Applying to the Normal Review group is done via PMing the Normal list mod (although they may well PM you first once you've built up a reputation as a reviewer).

For Open setup reviews, see this forum. You can just drop in on someone else's setup and post a review. Because there's no reason for Open reviews to be done in secret, it's a good place to see how reviewing works. However, reviews there tend to be more sporadic and less thorough than in other queues, for some reason.

Thanks ! I'll review some mini themed games for experience.

I just checked my review notes (which will probably become public at some point, but someone will need to ask N to open the thread). I wasn't expecting the Vigilante to get full use out of their role; I considered it fairly likely that they'd fail to gain a mislynch. However, they were expected to confirm themself by killing someone (which did in fact happen). The Bodyguard and Tracker collectively were meant to be able to confirm one player (and they did; the Bodyguard confirmed themself by blocking a kill on a confirmed townie, leaving the town one confirmation ahead with the same player count they'd otherwise get). The Gunsmith was meant to give a similar amount of value as the Bodyguard and Tracker together; and that was meant to be enough to balance the setup. Seeing how the setup played out, I think it was about right, given that all the roles had a similar usefulness in practice to the usefulness they were predicted to have.

In post 2616, mhsmith0 wrote:Although honestly, tracker/gunsmith can both out the vig, and v cop can do so for scum, and doc can stop vig shot, and bg (if crappy) can accidentally save scum. Basically every power other than ascetic was set up to be anti-vig; at that point a full jk is better than vig conceptually, and even more so than a 2-shot vig.

Okay we are going to imagine worst case scenarios then. Gunsmith checks maf VC. Tracker tracks goon doing the kill. Vig shoots maf doc.
Scum sided ? Hell no

You don't balance by imagining the lottery ticket night action scenario, you do it by looking at reasonably likely EVEN IF you get all actions at scum, it's just as likely to be gunsmith at doc, vig and tracker at goon, and doc saves vc. Goon dies, tracker got noting, and gunsmith got a false inno. And frankly, if scum team is ineffective enough to draw all of towns night power, they were gonna lose anyway.

Ps Hell, even there maybe you have a VI BG who saves the doc, and maybe the scum shoot the gunsmith or tracker.

I really enjoyed playing this game, and following it after I died.

Well played mich. As you'll see in the dead thread I was between u and kraska in MyLo. Surprised town didn't consider more:

1) why would blitz use the doc claim to try to save herself later in the game, but if elyse was scum, she'd have had to be the doc yet she claimed VT D1 at L-1???
2) and if elyse went before shadow, shadow would have been autolynched after elyse had fake claimed VT as scum doc, and shadow confirmed that fake claim day 2.

Overall I was okay with the balance. I thought both sides played fairly well (town reading other town correctly, scum with some good calls on NKs), and to have it come down to a MyLo scum win confirms it for me.

Thanks for modding CT!

Oh yeah this game was fun ^_^

yeah iai is right about elyse lol :/

i really am personally not fond of short deadlines (i was asked to replace in, otherwise i would never have ), I probably would have realized that later if I didn't try to rush mylo

also thanks for hosting, chilledtea!! had lots of fun