Mini Normal 2041 [Game Over]

[Mewtaph]

Spoiler: Thought Process on DDL claim

1) This is a claim based entirely on actions made by me unless there is a scum roleblocker and the scum team actually did end up roleblocking A50 as well.
2) DVa's play around me/Seph has been irking me for this entire day phase (D2). They've displayed that they've been stuck on my slot in one way or another but I'm not completely convinced that they couldn't just be trying to sew seeds of doubt on each other.
3) DVa's reaction to that... wasn't great. They took that more as an attack on them rather than an attack on DDL when it is two-pronged on both players.
4) If people are thinking about going to an alternative wagon and there are people saying that this is another case of "there has to be scum in DDL/Mew" because this isn't how scum play around each other, then I think this is a good time to L-1.

Seeing the overall town power level to try to evaluate game balance and scum roles seem appropriate through a mass claim because it is just a transparent way to clear up claims early now rather than later. Unless we don't plan to have a mass claim ever again, it makes little sense to delay it.

CCs or lack thereof will become clearer and it will be much easier to strike a precision on who I think scum is.

Could this be town A50 making leaps and bounds trying to make a me/Seph scum team work? Possibly. I'm not going to discount it entirely but as long as he's hard pushing for what I perceive to be both town and powerroles, then yeah no thanks, I'm not going to be into it.

[Mewtaph]

Can you expand on why A50 is scum again Mew? You think there's an unclaimed investigative, or this setup has no investigative?

It makes sense balance wise for there to be an investigative role to be in the setup. I don't see why an unclaimed investigative would withhold unless they really think that I am scum and don't want to go to a mass claim until later because it would be a distraction from my lynch.

[Almost50]

What if Kokichi is the Mafia Doc?
We will see what happens after Mew flip.

WHY AM I STILL ALIVE? Did Scum foresee I was going to check Koki specifically??? Come on!

@Mew: You're missing my point (or deliberately pretending to. I'm not sure). Your Scum!partner fake claimed JK yesterday and was not CC'd. It is very much safe for you to assume there is NO TOWN JAILKEEPER.

What I'm saying is your partner (the ones still alive) is the RB, and not you. You guys are doing some "juggling" with your roles to confuse us and try to get out of this situation you're in.

Seph's claim doesn't make sense either, and is -so far- unproven. We only had 1 death per night, so there's no evidence we have a Vig to begin with. That is why I'm trying to direct him to where he shoots next, so he can't say that he holstered or decided it was a good idea to shoot anyone outside of Gamma/PP.

If Seph is Town his kill will most likely go through, because Scum will have to chose between (a) shooting elsewhere = confirming Seph, (b) shooting Seph = solving a problem for us, (c) holster = missing out on their action altogether, (d) Block someone else who may or may not have a night action, or (e) Block Seph = No NK

I will check in Nako/Oka/DVa just to another Town slot confirm someone. Scum may try to RB me = Seph's shot goes through, or may decide to shoot me = Seph's shot goes through AND he is confirmed. They cannot afford to not block either of us and not kill me because that means I get to confirm someone in addition to Koki.

See? It's an unwinnable situation for scum as it is, whether Seph is Town or Scum.

[Mewtaph]

I am not missing your point, I just don't particularly care for it because I already know it's not true and you are screaming scum in every post.

[DVa]

OK Mew, but riddle me this

You're town JK. You know you blocked A50.

You also *think you prevented A50 from making a kill* and that A50 is scum

But then you think *scum don't know whether you're ascetic*?

In this scenario, A50 never even tried to target you, they know you are probably not ascetic because they know A50 was roleblocked.

So how the fuck does that compute? How do you think scum needed you to out you being "not-ascetic" if you *also* think you blocked A50 from making a kill?

[Mewtaph]

@A50, Also, even if that were true, any protective role CCing me would be in the realms on reasonability.

[OkaPoka]

I know this might be a tall order, but can you go through each post you made after DDL claimed and up to you voting him and explain why you made that post, perhaps give more context on what you were thinking?

Spoiler: the posts in question

See, my non-ascetic claim makes the claim less believable. If one of DDL/DVa flips scum then the other has a very strong chance to. Do not ignore this.

If scum doesn't know if I'm ascetic or not, then they can't make the roleblocked A50 claim because they don't actually know if I'm ascetic or not. Whereas if town roleblocked A50, they already know and don't need me to claim ascetic or not.

They can't do it if they didn't roleblock/JK A50 themselves. The claim doesn't make sense for DDL to target A50 because on D1 to DDL he was a null slot.

Depends on how DDL was playing. If he wanted to go for blocking kills that would make sense.

If he wanted to go for blocking kills then he wouldn't have gone for A50. Based on his reads inthread, he would have JKed BEF.

Well, his next likely scum on his list was you, and I don't think you were suspected in thread.

Also why A50 over one of the masons?

this is embarassing but I thought he was scum and likely to make the kill on day end

I guess it is worth asking what about the flip made you change your read of a50 and why you wouldn't use the jk protectively... like why would you assume a50 would be the one to make the kill?

UNVOTE:

Why did you unvote DDL in this post. This is why I don't feel comfortable with ever townreading you in this game.

NVM, read VC wrong. Still, not trusting of your slot and I think a dose of that is healthy enough.

VOTE: DrDolittle
L-1.

[Mewtaph]

OK Mew, but riddle me this

You're town JK. You know you blocked A50.

You also *think you prevented A50 from making a kill* and that A50 is scum

But then you think *scum don't know whether you're ascetic*?

In this scenario, A50 never even tried to target you, they know you are probably not ascetic because they know A50 was roleblocked.

So how the fuck does that compute? How do you think scum needed you to out you being "not-ascetic" if you *also* think you blocked A50 from making a kill?

I JKed A50 so I either blocked him from making the kill or blocked a kill from going onto him.

I mean, scum still doesn't know whether I'm ascetic or not especially IF the roleblock didn't come from their team (ie. it came from me as town). That's why you making a push on claiming non-ascetic/ascetic was troubling because it could have been to clarify that it was a roleblock rather than a random town Ascetic variable => that's an unclaimed action for anyone to take. They are not mutually exclusive.

[Mewtaph]

I know this might be a tall order, but can you go through each post you made after DDL claimed and up to you voting him and explain why you made that post, perhaps give more context on what you were thinking?

Spoiler: the posts in question

See, my non-ascetic claim makes the claim less believable. If one of DDL/DVa flips scum then the other has a very strong chance to. Do not ignore this.

If scum doesn't know if I'm ascetic or not, then they can't make the roleblocked A50 claim because they don't actually know if I'm ascetic or not. Whereas if town roleblocked A50, they already know and don't need me to claim ascetic or not.

They can't do it if they didn't roleblock/JK A50 themselves. The claim doesn't make sense for DDL to target A50 because on D1 to DDL he was a null slot.

Depends on how DDL was playing. If he wanted to go for blocking kills that would make sense.

If he wanted to go for blocking kills then he wouldn't have gone for A50. Based on his reads inthread, he would have JKed BEF.

Well, his next likely scum on his list was you, and I don't think you were suspected in thread.

Also why A50 over one of the masons?

this is embarassing but I thought he was scum and likely to make the kill on day end

I guess it is worth asking what about the flip made you change your read of a50 and why you wouldn't use the jk protectively... like why would you assume a50 would be the one to make the kill?

UNVOTE:

Why did you unvote DDL in this post. This is why I don't feel comfortable with ever townreading you in this game.

NVM, read VC wrong. Still, not trusting of your slot and I think a dose of that is healthy enough.

VOTE: DrDolittle
L-1.

Ok, I will get to it.

[DVa]

To be fair, Seph's progression on BEF is also baffling.

>Starts tring BEF
>Decides BEF is scummy
>Defends BEF despite him being scummy
>Eventually votes BEF as a consensus lynch
>Then... shoots BEF over Nako and A50

I also kinda dislike how his scum pile becomes his null pile and his null pile becomes his scum pile. Like that's just fucking weird--everyone who started in his scum pile is moved to "can't sort" by end of day.

idk tho, Vig is still a pretty ballsy claim for scum to make even if the night actions here require him to have been totally fucking disengaged n2 which is hard to swallow

Spoiler:

I'm here.

Town pile: { Tchill, Radja, Kokichi, Joey }

Null Pile: { BEF, PP, A50, nako }

Scummy Pile: { okapoka, drdoolittle, dva }

No reason to put the -1 on unless Drdoolittle doesnt post tonight as promised so VOTE: okapoka[/b] instead.

I think BEF looks pretty damn town by comparison to my last game with him. Could be NAI but I don't get scum vibes from him.

{ Kokichi, Joey }
Gamma
dva, mew/radja, okapoka, almost50, drdoolittle
PP, TChill, BEF, Nako

@Seph: Are you scum in this game, bud? What even??

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Your post 988 was clearly rolefishing especially since you implied the entire time you 'just wanted to clear his slot and move on'. Trying to get a claim with that belief is 100% rolefishing. What BEF said was much less rolefishy and Nako's vote makes no sense if you look at the context of BEfs post and your post. Care to elaborate? Because at the moment it seems like you're trying v hard to buddy me and then periodically getting suspicious when I don't do exactly what you want/expect. Your indignation makes no sense given how clearly you were rolefishing and your stated reason for doing so.

And further, why does Nako view BEFs vote as rolefishing but say nothing about your very prominent rolefishing? I would at least like Nako to acknowledge the question and say whether they do or don't agree that you are blatantly rolefishing much worse than BEF is.

Okay here's where I am right now...

---

Townreads:

Kokichi
Joey
--
Gamma
PP
Mew

Can't sort:

Okapoka
Dva
DrDooLittle

Scumreads:

BEF
Tchill
Nako
A50

I town read Kokichi and Joey for obvious reasons, I town read both gamma and PP now based on thinking their exchange over the last few pages is TvT. I also liked PPs part of our exchange when I voted him. Maybe he slightly buddied me but I'm willing to figure that out D2. I don't have any strong reason to town read Mew but they are activ, look to be sorting, and I generally find their logic to be solid so definitely better than null.

Can't really sort Dva or okapoka. Between the two of them I feel slightly worse about dva based on our interaction when I came out of V/LA, it just seemed like a pointless thing to push me on especially once I admitted to not having caught up yet. I view them both as making arguments I strongly disagree with often, but I can see it coming from a real place

most

of the time.
I'm a little frustrated about DDL pretty much coasting. I don't think 855 was that good honestly. I'm okay with them in the null pile for now since we already wagoned him and nothing really came of it but he is the closest of these 3 to being a scumlean.

Nako is posting frequently enough but not engaging with the game beyond surface level imo (is that their meta?). This coincides with her completely inexplicable choice to vote BEF for rolefishing in the face of A50's much more blatant rolefishing (fishing against someone he called a tr) I don't think BEF's level of engagement with the game is particularly different from the last game we played in which he was correctly called as scum based on this meta. Also don't feel too bad lynching him generally has he hasn't made much effort to solve the game imo. A50 I feel like I've discussed plenty, but mostly because the only thing they could think of to stop a wagon on their tr was to add their vote, give intent, and ask for a claim. Don't see any town mindset there. Tchill would be a compromise lynch for me bc while I have a scum lean from some of his more coasty posts I feel confident that he will actually play D2 and become more readable then. Desire to end day at 40 pages I consider NAI for him.

That's my meta btw.

Well i wasn't really asking you but fair enough. I'm more concerned with ignoring A50's rolefish to attack what was arguably not even a rolefish by BEF and placing your vote there.

Oh, I was pre-posted. Twice!

Re PP:

Yes I see your point as well. I think the reaction itself is NAI but I tr him for other reasons. I tr you both atm. I'm still curious what gives you the whole caught scum vibe, though.

Re BEF:

Combination of a strong sense of this being his scum meta and also believing even if it isn't he won't contribute much as town. But really I'm fairly confident in this being his scum game after playing 2038 with him. Read Nics ISO and check his meta case on BEF, which was 100% spot on, and compare it to this game then to some other BEF town games. Its a pretty strong correlation.

[Mewtaph]

The thing is, Seph's claim is entirely testable and foolproof as soon as there are two kills in one night. So it's not much use pondering whether they are being truthful or not.

[DVa]

I mean, scum still doesn't know whether I'm ascetic or not especially IF the roleblock didn't come from their team (ie. it came from me as town). That's why you making a push on claiming non-ascetic/ascetic was troubling because it could have been to clarify that it was a roleblock rather than a random town Ascetic variable => that's an unclaimed action for anyone to take. They are not mutually exclusive.

WTF? You are aware that "ascetic" does not mean bulletproof right? If he was shooting you he fucking knows you aren't ascetic

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument here

[DVa]

The thing is, Seph's claim is entirely testable and foolproof as soon as there are two kills in one night. So it's not much use pondering whether they are being truthful or not.

You're assuming then there's no scum RB?

[Mewtaph]

The thing is, Seph's claim is entirely testable and foolproof as soon as there are two kills in one night. So it's not much use pondering whether they are being truthful or not.

You're assuming then there's no scum RB?

There are two possibilities for a scum RB.
i) They roleblocked A50 with me on N1 (possible), then they missed a roleblock on some player without an ability on N2 (doesn't make much sense, if they were synced with my roleblock I'd think they would probably just roleblock A50 again since they don't know where his action is going)
ii) They missed their roleblock both nights - this only seems possible if A50 is scum because if A50 is town, it doesn't make sense for a scum roleblocker in existence to miss twice.

Either way, it will be likely with this many power claims in the mix, that a scum roleblocker would be forced to reveal next night, or forfeit their utility just to maintain the idea that there isn't one - I don't really understand why they would do this.

[DVa]

1) This is a claim based entirely on actions made by me unless there is a scum roleblocker and the scum team actually did end up roleblocking A50 as well.
2) DVa's play around me/Seph has been irking me for this entire day phase (D2). They've displayed that they've been stuck on my slot in one way or another but I'm not completely convinced that they couldn't just be trying to sew seeds of doubt on each other.
3) DVa's reaction to that... wasn't great. They took that more as an attack on them rather than an attack on DDL when it is two-pronged on both players.
4) If people are thinking about going to an alternative wagon and there are people saying that this is another case of "there has to be scum in DDL/Mew" because this isn't how scum play around each other, then I think this is a good time to L-1.

Scum claimed scum and half your thought process is about me?

Like you realize that's fucking weird right?

Where is:
"Did they infer my role from A50's claim?
Did they rolecop me?
Does this confirm BEF was a vig shot?
Are they trying to force me to CC so that they can shoot me or is this only to save DrD slot?
Why would DrD, as scum, cross-claim me if he wasn't sure I was already on the wagon?
Do scum assume that since he is cross-claiming a real TPR that he will go down so they will be bussing?"

Like, when is your fucking only thoughts about scum claiming scum "is DVa, confused by a claim with a confirmed night action, scum because she said shit about me being ascetic when I'm not"?

Like do you understand that this does not read like a town thought process, this reads like a "scum explaining why they were setting up a mislynch when they were supposedly CC'd by scum" thought process

[Mewtaph]

Spoiler: Posts in question

Reading thread, Jailkeeper claim spotted. First thought: scum. Second thought: I don't want to reveal if I don't have to. Third thought: The action doesn't make much sense coming from him, and only makes sense from Seph/Mew. Maybe I can try to trap him in a web.

See, my non-ascetic claim makes the claim less believable. If one of DDL/DVa flips scum then the other has a very strong chance to. Do not ignore this.

Let me state outright that the claim isn't as believable due to my open non-ascetic claim. As long as scum isn't A50, my non-ascetic claim means there is an open roleblock/save => JK action on A50 that DDL can try to claim. I attributed this to DVa because just before this post he switched off of DDL due to the claim.

If scum doesn't know if I'm ascetic or not, then they can't make the roleblocked A50 claim because they don't actually know if I'm ascetic or not. Whereas if town roleblocked A50, they already know and don't need me to claim ascetic or not.

I'm elaborating on why I think the claim is not believable aka bullshit. Gamma pushing me on this is ideal because I am already sure that DDL wouldn't choose to JK A50 themselves.

They can't do it if they didn't roleblock/JK A50 themselves. The claim doesn't make sense for DDL to target A50 because on D1 to DDL he was a null slot.

This was a bit more blatant in saying "I know that the claim doesn't make sense because I did it myself, and he didn't do it himself". While still keeping attention on the action matching DDL himself, which is public information anyone can observe -- noone can observe my role PM but me right now and I don't really want it up to observation at this point.

Depends on how DDL was playing. If he wanted to go for blocking kills that would make sense.

If he wanted to go for blocking kills then he wouldn't have gone for A50. Based on his reads inthread, he would have JKed BEF.

I want to make it clear that one of his top priorities, if going for a JK, would have been BEF who he had as his strongest scum read during D1. Incidentally BEF died - I want to make it seem like DDL had to jump a lot of hoops to get through to deciding to JK A50 for a roleblocking action. If they aren't using "I spotted the GS crumb" then it's clear that his argument is for blocking so I want to tear that argument up as much as possible.

Well, his next likely scum on his list was you, and I don't think you were suspected in thread.

Continuing to push on public information; DDl's second highest scum read was Gamma, and clearly DDL didn't choose to JK Gamma, he supposedly JKed A50. This is pretty much a challenge

Also why A50 over one of the masons?

this is embarassing but I thought he was scum and likely to make the kill on day end

I guess it is worth asking what about the flip made you change your read of a50 and why you wouldn't use the jk protectively... like why would you assume a50 would be the one to make the kill?

UNVOTE:

Why did you unvote DDL in this post. This is why I don't feel comfortable with ever townreading you in this game.

DVa related. DVa did some of the pushing on DDL for me to ensure that he would have to answer it (all of us) in his next post, so I was comfortable on that front.

NVM, read VC wrong. Still, not trusting of your slot and I think a dose of that is healthy enough.

DVa related. Me claiming non-ascetic means that the roleblock/save => JK action is unclaimed and up for grabs for a desperate PR claim, so I related it mostly to DVa. VC had DVa voting DDL but they changed their vote to PP after the VC which did not compute with me when I made the previous post.

VOTE: DrDolittle
L-1.

Honing it in; wasn't happy with the logic, eliminating any doubt that there are two JKs in a setup (lol) and that he was scum. [This is not relevant to the thought process behind the post, but the way DDL went around the claim also reveals a bit on how scum themselves might be confused about the JK on A50 themselves => suggests to me that there is probably no scum roleblocker.]

[DVa]

So from your point of view there's only one scenario here right? Sephiroth is confirmed town.

a) If there was scum rolecop, and scum knew your role that way, then they would have killed you last night
b) If scum had killed BEF, then they would not think there is a VIG, so there would be no reason to claim JK over town RB

The only reason you would be alive and for DrD to have still claimed town JK requires scum to have missed on A50, and doesn't that also require A50 to be town? Otherwise, why would DrD say JK instead of RB?

Like he nailed your role exactly, which implies he knew both there was both a roleblock *and a save*. So why is A50 and Seph not *both confirmed town* for you? How do you get to A50 as scum in this scenario given that DrD had to figure out your role through deduction?

[DVa]

Unless you think DrD just straight up guessed it was JK and not RB/commuter/something else? Or thought JK would sound better for some reason?

[Mewtaph]

Scum claimed scum and half your thought process is about me?

Like you realize that's fucking weird right?

Where is:
"Did they infer my role from A50's claim?
Did they rolecop me?
Does this confirm BEF was a vig shot?
Are they trying to force me to CC so that they can shoot me or is this only to save DrD slot?
Why would DrD, as scum, cross-claim me if he wasn't sure I was already on the wagon?
Do scum assume that since he is cross-claiming a real TPR that he will go down so they will be bussing?"

Like, when is your fucking only thoughts about scum claiming scum "is DVa, confused by a claim with a confirmed night action, scum because she said shit about me being ascetic when I'm not"?

Like do you understand that this does not read like a town thought process, this reads like a "scum explaining why they were setting up a mislynch when they were supposedly CC'd by scum" thought process

I mean, I guess? Some players think differently than others though. I thought that you were pushing malicious intent which in turn means that you now think that I was pushing a malicious intent of my own.

Rolecop was far from my mind. Scum powers do not need to be over the top; every mafia member has an ability or one scum is a JOAT. I was thinking mostly a vanilla team based on how cluelessly DDL went around the claim and put in little effort into putting in work of them being a town JK from start of day assuming that result - it came after the JK claim.

How could they infer my role specifically over any other player in the playerlist based on A50's claim?

It could confirm BEF as a vig shot, but that seems irrelevant as it would self resolve as a vig anyway (the lack of vig claim on the day was also confusing and made me not want to jump to any conclusions).

Yes, they were probably hoping I would CC if they identified there was a JK in the setup but they didn't know who. It's an unclaimed action. It's sink or swim claim, that much was obvious and I wanted to make it a sink claim without me helping them in the "hoping" part. It was fairly obvious the claim didn't have much meat to it.

DDL has no idea he is cross claiming me specifically, unless scum has a rolecop and they targeted me over every other player in the playerlist and received back. If he did have knowledge of that, I have a feeling scum never makes that play, or is more cautious of making that play because I can just remove the support structures and he falls into the abyss (eats rope).

I don't understand the point you are trying to make with that last part - "Do scum assume that since he is cross-claiming a real TPR that he will go down so they will be bussing?"

[Mewtaph]

Holy shit you are drowning me DVa. I'll get to 2641 next.

[DVa]

Or DrD claimed JK just because there was already JK speculation in your mind?

Hey, you bitched about reaching out.

[DVa]

"Do scum assume that since he is cross-claiming a real TPR that he will go down so they will be bussing?"

DrD when he makes that claim must know he is claiming a TPR, since you are town and know there was no scum RB on A50. So he knows *that person* will want to lynch him. He is now 100% confirmed scum to someone in the town. So then is the question do scum avoid the wagon because they want to see who pushes him after, or do scum bus because they assume he will be going down anyway given that now one person in the town has the equivalent of a daycop guilty on him? Or do they hardlurk given that DrD could be cross-claimed at any moment? How does scum react to knowing that DrD has just set himself up for a hard cross-claim?

[Mewtaph]

Ok, so there are/were a couple options FMPOV that can't be cleared on the A50 side unless it is completely clear there are no CCs on an unclaimed investigative role or some other role that makes the current setup {Me JK, Seph Vig, A50 GS} an unbalanced setup.

A50 and DDL both scum
=> DDL's claim could be to reveal the JK
=> A50 has been saying that the JK/roleblock has to come from scum. This is concerning because either he forces a JK claim out on D2 and kills it, or he pushes future JK claims because "they would've claimed"

A50 town, DDL scum
=> DDL wants to take the unclaimed roleblock/save option from his scum point of view because he already knows that A50 was roleblocked, but not by them, and they also know that A50 was saved, but not by them (if he was the N1 target). This specific thought process suggests that A50 is town.

I can't completely remove doubt.

[DVa]

A50 and DDL both scum

=> DDL's claim could be to reveal the JK

But in this scenario *DDL doesn't know there is JK*. From DrD's point of view, it could be: roleblocker, JK, Commuter, or he could have hit a bulletproof or commuted target. His kill target could have been doc saved. His kill target could have been babysat. His kill target could have been a town hider. There's a lot of reasons for A50's nightkill to fail if he's scum, there's no reason to assume it's JK over anything else, unless he was just going with the flow of the town because I think maybe a few people had speculated about JK at that point. In which case that's a crazy f'n coincidence

[Mewtaph]

"Do scum assume that since he is cross-claiming a real TPR that he will go down so they will be bussing?"

DrD when he makes that claim must know he is claiming a TPR, since you are town and know there was no scum RB on A50. So he knows *that person* will want to lynch him. He is now 100% confirmed scum to someone in the town. So then is the question do scum avoid the wagon because they want to see who pushes him after, or do scum bus because they assume he will be going down anyway given that now one person in the town has the equivalent of a daycop guilty on him? Or do they hardlurk given that DrD could be cross-claimed at any moment? How does scum react to knowing that DrD has just set himself up for a hard cross-claim?

I think scum definitely busses as soon as they see the direction heading that way (DDL's lynch) over people pursuing stuff Nako put out there like Kokichi or PenguinPower, etc.
Mostly the way that pressure pushed onto DDL suggested that the claim didn't work, town was pushing them but not revealing. You were pushing with me which also made me feel better that although they can guess between who pushed DDL after the claim, they will be mostly shooting blind (this is partly why I considered JKing you since you seemed quite vocal about moving from PP to DDL which could be interpreted as a town TPR anti-DDL claim action).