Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[The Fonz]

Also, can you explain why you said you were surprised that anyone thought you could be scum

before you'd actually read the game?

[OkaPoka]

I was suprised?
No

I want reasons.

Ohhhhh, hmmm I think I know your role.

[OkaPoka]

Yet I have no creativity was a comedian. How does that relate to being immune to kills?

[The Fonz]

The notion that im scum is beyond me.

I meant this post.

[OkaPoka]

Nobody properly explained a good case on me.

[OkaPoka]

I mainly want why

because your baboon vote looked opportunistic as fuck and I am worried I'm dismissing your play as VI.

i have put my case forth. We have like 4 days. A lynch has to happen.

[fferyllt]

I mainly want why

because your baboon vote looked opportunistic as fuck and I am worried I'm dismissing your play as VI.

i have put my case forth. We have like 4 days. A lynch has to happen.

unpersuasive.

[fferyllt]

mara

[Baboon Pride]

yes?

[fferyllt]

you're pretty quiet for a counterwagon.

[Baboon Pride]

I guess?

aside from titus, who has been tunneling the fuck out of the day phase, I'm not really bothered by the people on my wagon. They are still town, and am also hoping that, if I do end up flipping it'll actually cause her to make the needed hard reset

[Baboon Pride]

well, more that I don't really care for those on my wagon atm, and one of the three is probably scum so there isn't any use to really doing anything with them/convince them that I shouldn't be wagoned?

[fferyllt]

there's four on your wagon now I think.

[The Fonz]

well, more that I don't really care for those on my wagon atm, and one of the three is probably scum so there isn't any use to really doing anything with them/convince them that I shouldn't be wagoned?

Someone on that wagon is town.

God I fucking hate it when people get fatalistic in mafia games. It's a terrible thing for town players to do and a really useful scumtactic - which you can't even vote people for unless you're willing to go full PL because town players do it so goddamn often.

[Baboon Pride]

Fuck me. I just have to be vla right now, of course.

Based on the game state I thin 5 off is actually kind of transparently scum and oka or maybe even lissa are a scumbuddy. I don't know why anyone thinks the idea that lissa could have had a vanilla town intern pm is crazy. I do still think the way she went at that was town though. AKs case on us is literally hydra dis. I am signing my posts and u can't help it if mara thinks she knows better than me. To be fair she may well be right but that is entirely beside the point.

Ceph

[Lissa]

@Lissa what point do you like?

The Page 22 stuff. Four's case, and what you said about posts 533 and 549.

I'm trying to remember why I was townreading you.

I remembered.

this counterwagon and its timing. hmm.

Lissa, fyi this is a significant gamestate change.

I am aware of that. I said I felt the 5-off wagon was not a significant gamestate change; this is.

well, more that I don't really care for those on my wagon atm, and one of the three is probably scum so there isn't any use to really doing anything with them/convince them that I shouldn't be wagoned?

Someone on that wagon is town.

God I fucking hate it when people get fatalistic in mafia games. It's a terrible thing for town players to do and a really useful scumtactic - which you can't even vote people for unless you're willing to go full PL because town players do it so goddamn often.

This.
Tell me why I should unvote you.

[OkaPoka]

Spoiler: Some stuff on why Baboon is town

in anycase, I never said I liked Fonz post, but I can defintely see where he is coming from, and it is something I can expect another person of relative experience of this game to get. Especially on this site. Lissa's post can be construed in many ways, and it's more about what's not there, than what is there.

This feels like a town perspective.

Fonz, what's the problem with Lissa's post?

this interests me.

Why does that interest you and why do you like Fonz's post? For the record, I stand with FT in believing that there was nothing wrong with Lissa's post.

I liked it because it was an easy post to attack (it does a lot of pointing out the obvious, for one), and he noted this and chose not to attack it. Since I am mildly townreading Lissa, this appeals to me.

(@Mara above- that was directed to me. Maybe we should sign :S)

This is a good observation. I feel like it again comes from a town perspective. (also, noted about pointing out the obvious.)

Also, I think it was Falcon who brought it up, but I dont particularly care about wether or not 5-off has played mafia before ms, he is new

here

and that means he is new to a whole different level of mafia. I had two years experience prior to coming on here, i have made it known, and I always had a confident scum-game but it doesnt change the genuine tone that happened when he assumed everyone else had the same info in their pm that hr had in his, and it closely matches tje genuineness I had when claiming scum in wingate mansion (not sure if you read that game, but you can run it by tammy)

I really like this observation and agree about 5-off.

I figured it wasn't allowed, that's why I asked before doing it. I'll try to paraphrase, but it's gonna lose the tone of it, which is definitely relevant. He started with, "I want to clear something up. Are there any scum in here?" -- then followed that with, "I think we've caught scum on pg. 2 in Nashville. Nashville's continued reaction is really bad. I don't want to say anything because I want to see how they'll continue to react. But I'm telling you guys because I trust you." This is a bad paraphrase but it gets across the main ideas I was concerned with.

At first, I thought this guy was town. Then I realized a couple problems and felt like an idiot. If you're asking, "are there scum in here," you're not gonna start trusting people in the Intern PM when no one has even posted yet (at that time, only Lissa had posted besides Ceph). Nashville could have been IN THE PM, for all Ceph knew. The degree of trust made no sense. I didn't understand it, given an earlier post about possible scum in the PM. Suddenly, the whole, "we've caught scum already! yay!" was very manipulative, as was the, "guys, let's watch Nashville's continued reaction together, we're in this together" vibe. It felt like scum buddying up to the folks in the neighborhood.

So, alright, let's start out by throwing dirt on my tone, which you can't explain. OK, sure. Whatever.

"Are there any scum in here?" was never intended to be taken seriously. It's the equivalent of asking someone if they're town on page 1.

The Nashville thing was the first in my process of testing the waters in the neighborhood. My plan for the neighborhood, before it got vomited into the thread and completely ruined, was to start out by using it as though everyone in it was town; leaving small tidbits in it that I would prefer scum not know, but wouldn't be horribly broken up about if they did. From there, I was going to watch to see whether any non-neighbors changed their behavior in response to anything I said in the hood. So, for instance, I was criticizing Nashville's schtick continuing while they started getting pressure, as I thought the town thing to do would be to drop it and start contributing rather than try too hard at looking lighthearted. Then, if they proceeded to drop it (this is just an example, really, of what I wanted to do with the neighborhood), I suspect that someone in the neighborhood has passed them the information, giving me reason to suspect both that the player who changed is scum, and that there is a scum neighbor (IIRC this was before the presence of a scum neighbor became all but irrefutable & before I realized there could be a lurking neighbor, but those would play in as well).

-Ceph

Good points. I hadn't picked up on the details before seeing this, but I'd assumed Baboon had some sort of reason for wanting to hide that we were neighbors. And they did say in the neighborhood PT that their water testing had a purpose.
Also, FT's case (what Baboon quoted here) is ridiculous.

I believe there were also some posts in the neighborhood that I felt were townish. Will summarize those either in a few minutes or tonight.

Do those two post beat your own case you made on town baboon?

[Lissa]

Spoiler: Some stuff on why Baboon is town

in anycase, I never said I liked Fonz post, but I can defintely see where he is coming from, and it is something I can expect another person of relative experience of this game to get. Especially on this site. Lissa's post can be construed in many ways, and it's more about what's not there, than what is there.

This feels like a town perspective.

Fonz, what's the problem with Lissa's post?

this interests me.

Why does that interest you and why do you like Fonz's post? For the record, I stand with FT in believing that there was nothing wrong with Lissa's post.

I liked it because it was an easy post to attack (it does a lot of pointing out the obvious, for one), and he noted this and chose not to attack it. Since I am mildly townreading Lissa, this appeals to me.

(@Mara above- that was directed to me. Maybe we should sign :S)

This is a good observation. I feel like it again comes from a town perspective. (also, noted about pointing out the obvious.)

Also, I think it was Falcon who brought it up, but I dont particularly care about wether or not 5-off has played mafia before ms, he is new

here

and that means he is new to a whole different level of mafia. I had two years experience prior to coming on here, i have made it known, and I always had a confident scum-game but it doesnt change the genuine tone that happened when he assumed everyone else had the same info in their pm that hr had in his, and it closely matches tje genuineness I had when claiming scum in wingate mansion (not sure if you read that game, but you can run it by tammy)

I really like this observation and agree about 5-off.

I figured it wasn't allowed, that's why I asked before doing it. I'll try to paraphrase, but it's gonna lose the tone of it, which is definitely relevant. He started with, "I want to clear something up. Are there any scum in here?" -- then followed that with, "I think we've caught scum on pg. 2 in Nashville. Nashville's continued reaction is really bad. I don't want to say anything because I want to see how they'll continue to react. But I'm telling you guys because I trust you." This is a bad paraphrase but it gets across the main ideas I was concerned with.

At first, I thought this guy was town. Then I realized a couple problems and felt like an idiot. If you're asking, "are there scum in here," you're not gonna start trusting people in the Intern PM when no one has even posted yet (at that time, only Lissa had posted besides Ceph). Nashville could have been IN THE PM, for all Ceph knew. The degree of trust made no sense. I didn't understand it, given an earlier post about possible scum in the PM. Suddenly, the whole, "we've caught scum already! yay!" was very manipulative, as was the, "guys, let's watch Nashville's continued reaction together, we're in this together" vibe. It felt like scum buddying up to the folks in the neighborhood.

So, alright, let's start out by throwing dirt on my tone, which you can't explain. OK, sure. Whatever.

"Are there any scum in here?" was never intended to be taken seriously. It's the equivalent of asking someone if they're town on page 1.

The Nashville thing was the first in my process of testing the waters in the neighborhood. My plan for the neighborhood, before it got vomited into the thread and completely ruined, was to start out by using it as though everyone in it was town; leaving small tidbits in it that I would prefer scum not know, but wouldn't be horribly broken up about if they did. From there, I was going to watch to see whether any non-neighbors changed their behavior in response to anything I said in the hood. So, for instance, I was criticizing Nashville's schtick continuing while they started getting pressure, as I thought the town thing to do would be to drop it and start contributing rather than try too hard at looking lighthearted. Then, if they proceeded to drop it (this is just an example, really, of what I wanted to do with the neighborhood), I suspect that someone in the neighborhood has passed them the information, giving me reason to suspect both that the player who changed is scum, and that there is a scum neighbor (IIRC this was before the presence of a scum neighbor became all but irrefutable & before I realized there could be a lurking neighbor, but those would play in as well).

-Ceph

Good points. I hadn't picked up on the details before seeing this, but I'd assumed Baboon had some sort of reason for wanting to hide that we were neighbors. And they did say in the neighborhood PT that their water testing had a purpose.
Also, FT's case (what Baboon quoted here) is ridiculous.

I believe there were also some posts in the neighborhood that I felt were townish. Will summarize those either in a few minutes or tonight.

Do those two post beat your own case you made on town baboon?

Them along with the case you brought up of Four's - yes. Right now I believe they do.

[Nashville Dreams]

I will be catching up sometime tomorrow. So yes this is a dodge.

I have a bit of a cold or a cold coming on I can't tell which atm. so I'll try to be around before or after work as I still have to pack for vacation

~M

[Natirasha]

Vote Count 2.7

It was a lazy afternoon, Mr. Limb thought. He had been musing on why the fools that ran this station were using such an archaic method of determining who owned the company.

And why none of them were worried about the ritualistic homicide that they all saw.

Nashville Dreams(0):

Cutty Shark(0):

FUT(2):

Cutty Shark, Baboon Pride

AnatoleKuragin(0):

The Fonz(0):

F-1_Fighting_Falcon(0):

Baboon Pride(4):

Nashville Dreams, Anatole Kuragin, Lissa, OkaPoka

fferyllt(1):

F-16_Fighting_Falcon

OkaPoka(1):

fferylt

Lissa(0):

Not Voting(2):

FUT, The Fonz

With ten alive, it is six to lynch.
I am giving FUT til the end of today before searching for replacement again. In the case that I search for another replacement, I will not be extending the deadline.

(expired on 2014-10-09 16:00:00)

[The Fonz]

Vote: FUT

fairly clearly the better of the two wagons.

Et tu, Fferyll-te?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Back from weekend-zone, catching up.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Also, what do you want to do/who do you want to lynch/what do you think we should accomplish today?

One and three clearly converge at 'lynch scum.' If we could do this without it being a defaulty deadline rush, that would be even better.

So who's in your PoE pile? Do you think I am considering or ruling out anyone too erroneously?

Non-Candidates:

F-16: Based on my night action mostly.
CS: HB vote at crucial point, general town play.
Lissa: Hoodgate, timing of HB vote.
Oka: Based on Csareo's admittedly derpy attempt to break game for town.
Nashville: Partly on claim, partly on play that seems designed to make as many people as possible hate them

Candidates:

Anatole: Claim gives me pause. Lissa case seems dishonest - showed no sign of reappraising when erroneous statements about 'Links' pointed out.
Fferyllt: HB vote was obvious enough after VT claim. She and Anatole seem most likely bussers. Not really put neck on line at any point. Mostly PoE, to be fair.
5-Off/FUT: Didn't live up to promise of erratic play style, not on wagon, HB pays him a surprising amount of attention without declaring suspicion.
Baboon: They did a lot of things that seemed to me fine at the time, but seem scum-friendly in retrospect.

I'm re-reading and refining my reads. Here's where I'm at right now:

Town: {Fferyllt, Cutty Shark, Nashville Dreams, Baboon Pride} maybe {Lissa, TheFonz}
Which leaves {Oka, 5-Off/FUT, Anatole}

I'm townreading Baboon based on Mara's posts matching her towngame much more than her scumgame. The way she pushed FT is reminiscent of the way she pushed me in NY169 and I especially thought the way she put herself out there to gather votes on him felt like she genuinely believed that he was scum. I can elaborate if needed.

Similar reasons to Ffery. Her interactions as scum tend to be more manipulative. Just as one example, I feel that if she were scum, she would have dropped the "you are town because Tammy is town" thing she had going instead of continuing to needle me over it.

The point about Csareo is good but I'd be more comfortable POEing him out if Oka did anything even remotely town since he joined the game.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@FT, yeah, I agree with all your points on Honeybee. I was thinking the same thing about the questions to 5-Off because whatever answer he gives, it doesn't say anything about his alignment here. It is more like she was trying to catch 5-Off in a contradiction about his mafia principles. The word choice is a bit awkward. Don't know if it is because she is a newb or if it is alignment indicative.

~ F-16

Do you think this is indicative in retrospect of a non-partner relationship?

It falls well inside the range of interactions Honeybee is capable of faking with her partners as scum. From a brief meta-dive, she tends to interact and verbally spar with her partners a lot and is one of those people who interacts MORE with her buddies than is normal. So, no I wouldn't say it is indicative of a non-partner relationship.

Thankyou. That genuinely helps a lot. My initial suspicion, as noted above, was that HB was interacting with 5-Off a disproportionate amount. You seemed to be implying that HB was in some way trying to put 5O in a DIYDDIYD situation, which might have made me think otherwise.

I didn't have a basis for how Honeybee interacts with her partners then but looked through her scum games after she flipped.

You said that you looked through Honeybee's meta (I think). How did that go?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

The problem I have with Oka is that it feels like his reading through the game and developing analysis feels like a chore. He feels as though he is being forced to do something he doesn't want to do so that he doesn't get lynched. It could just be lazy/procrastinating town but I didn't like the way he catches up to a certain page, then posts his thoughts and catches up a bit more later. Something about it feels mechanical and forced.

I also find his reading without seeing the flips odd. When I catch up, I typically have the OP open in a separate post so that I can check the flips against the posts I'm reading so I know that it came from town or scum. That narrows down the pool of players that I need to read and helps me focus. Oka is wasting time on reading IHNC and FourTrouble - time that he clearly has in limited amounts considering he still hasn't caught up. It feels more like he is trying to be transparent and focussing on showing us all that he is reading and analyzing the game as opposed to developing his own reads.

It would still be a pretty convoluted way of faking reads as scum though - why pretend you don't know who your buddy is when you do (and everyone else does as well since she already flipped). I'm still on the fence here.