In post 2698, Luca Blight wrote:If only you could manipulate the post as well as you can manipulate the game...
I’m not sure if Klick was the first to point that out, I’ll have to check to confirm that. Some interesting points though, keep it coming.
I've been lazy i aint gonna lie. due to frustration and rust. Sorry.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:50 pm
by Tchill13
In post 1823, Klick wrote:I'm going back to the eternal question: what scumteam actually decides to kill Alisae over Icon last night?
Knowing what we know now, scum probably don't have much power themselves considering all we have is Loyal Mailman. They could probably reasonably assume town didn't have much power. I don't think the immediate assumption is that we have a protective with a Cop claim.
Datisi/A50 both noticed and reacted to the claim. Luca claims to have noticed but didn't give any indication of that until D2 (but tbf I do think he noticed - I think he's the type to have read through the whole thread as either alignment). LUV didn't acknowledge the claim yesterday. Tchill actively claims to have not seen it.
But then Alisae's strong townreads were Tchill/LUV/myself. I really don't think they choose to kill her.
quoting this again to highlight...
3 of the remaining 5 players are in that sentence.
if LUV and Klick are scum that noticed the ali crumb...
In post 2323, Klick wrote:If the vote is between gobble and LUV I'm voting LUV.
But if Icon has a different lynch he particularly wants today I'll sheep it instead.
Thoughts, Tchill?
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:00 pm
by Tchill13
In post 1857, Klick wrote:Icon is town - we're past questioning that.
I've given my reasons for thinking the LUV slot is town on multiple occasions. You can't minimise that to simply 'gut'.
A50 is admittedly a doubt more than anything, but I don't actually think he'd play like this with a scum Role PM? Especially with the replace-out. This comes from town far more often than scum, in the same vein as your argument towards Icon being Town earlier today.
Lynching A50 or LUV today simply because you don't want them both in Lylo is extremely lazy, at best.
In post 1960, Klick wrote:Tchill, I'm still putting the pieces together. I think Datisi/Luca is a team that has a decent amount of equity, but I'm by no means confident and I'm not going to sell you a case on Luca when I'm not confident in him being scum. He's been fairly townie today in his own right.
I'm not claiming my reads are infallible. In fact, I've gone wrong townreading at least one person - right now I have Datisi as likely scum largely by PoE (and her play today hasn't been hot), but then I have five townreads so I've definitely screwed up somewhere. But I think Datisi is the best lynch today.
Icon is town. This game doesn't have just a Night 3 Bodyguard for town power, and I'm not going to believe any further claims.
I'm pretty sold on the fact that the A50 slot is town, especially after gobble's claim. A50's play/replace-out straight-up just doesn't make sense as scum.
Billy didn't know that scum didn't have daytalk. And even if he did successfully fool us with that, I don't think he would have replaced out (and continued to be active on-site, at that).
You didn't realise Icon claimed Cop D1. You also came away from that whole situation with a townread on Icon, and I struggle to see that coming from scum.
With Luca, I can't say things are as solid. But he feels like town, especially today. He's made logical conclusions that would also be rather inconvenient for him to make as scum. (why immediately lean town on Icon's actions today? why buy into my poorly-explained reasoning for townreading A50/LUV? it's not
necessary
.)
Datisi is left. Nothing quite pings me as town in the same way that others have done. Nothing she's done would particularly surprise me coming from scum. And that's why I think she's the best lynch today. She's got the highest scum equity.
In post 1968, Klick wrote:Where did I ever say you had to townread anyone on my behalf? That's a ridiculous concept.
If you think LUV is scum, convince me. You have given no evidence other than his low activity.
You have this odd view of recent events where I've strongarmed you into my point of view. How about you present your own reads instead of forcing yourself into mine?
You seem to want to lynch A50slot or LUV, not because they're scum, but because if they're town you feel they're a safe mislynch. I disagree with that and I've given the reasons I townread both of those slots.
In post 1974, Klick wrote:I don't have an answer to that that I'm comfortable yet.
If you put a gun to my head I'd say I'm most likely to be wrong about Luca, then you, then LUV, then A50, then Icon.
I'm not pushing anyone else because I'm not confident in the second scum.
How many different ways can I find to say this before it gets through to you?
In post 2262, Klick wrote:I buy what you're selling. Particularly that you wouldn't have killed Ali.
It's worth noting that there's not a chance I kill Ali last night either, unless I/my partner saw the crumb. I was in his good books.
Gobble's not scum and I think that's pretty obvious.
I'm ready to accept that I could be wrong on Billy/LUV.
Datisi doesn't feel like scum here, particularly in the last few pages of getting annoyed with me. At first I thought she was being defeatist to try and get townread, but I don't think doing it to this level is quite within her range.
I'm falling on LUV/Luca as a team and I think it makes a fair amount of sense. Luca's read on LUV has flip-flopped enough that I'm not sold on it being coherent.
PEdit: I mean everything you're saying is consistent with the kind of stuff I've read from your past scum PTs I do think there are certain things people just don't do when they're scum that they do when they're town. To that end, meta isn't trash.
In post 2323, Klick wrote:If the vote is between gobble and LUV I'm voting LUV.
But if Icon has a different lynch he particularly wants today I'll sheep it instead.
he constantly defends a50 and LUV, acts as if he's pushing luv at the end but then uses icon as an out to avoid pushing LUV.
In post 2323, Klick wrote:If the vote is between gobble and LUV I'm voting LUV.
But if Icon has a different lynch he particularly wants today I'll sheep it instead.
Thoughts, Tchill?
lol i just quoted that. I think he gave himself an out with the icon statement. Im about to read his next few posts. If he acts upon it i'll change my mind.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:05 pm
by Tchill13
In post 2334, Klick wrote:Gobble's play was probably going to look busy upon replace-in here regardless of his alignment though?
In post 2339, Klick wrote:Icon, would you describe your previous experience with gobble as 'trying to look busy'? Because that was the sense I was getting from your posts complaining about him
In post 2246, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I’m fine lynching in Datisi, Gobble, and Iconeum today. I need to reread this Day 2 to really solidify or disconfirm my dislike of tchill’s play today.
LUV, what about Luca and I made you unwilling to lynch us today? As I recall, I was a scumread of yours D1. What changed?
there's no action here. Sure he SAID something but he doesn't even vote. How do you feel about that luca?
Gobble is consistently the only person he defends MORE or AS MUCH as LUV. Bringing LUV AND gobble to lylo makes sense if one is your partner
is just good scum play if neither are (which i highly doubt)
these 2 slots have the least content but are consistently Klick's strongets TRs and when he has the oppurtunity to really decide on one or the other he SAYS one thing but ultimately does nothing.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:06 pm
by Luca Blight
I feel like if it were Klick/Uzi then Klick could have easily maintained his hard TR on Uzi. The fact I was expressing a hard TR of Uzi myself at the time would have made this all the more convenient. Klick, while giving himself a possible out through following Icon, is limiting himself to not being able to vote Gobble even though the interest is there.
as scum do you choose to bring datisi or gobble to lylo?
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:11 pm
by Luca Blight
I get the argument of bringing both Uzi and Gobble to LYLO being good scum play, but Klick was basically lock-towning Gobble just as much as you have been. He's basically shut himself off from voting him (unless something drastically changes), while Uzi was going to eat rope Yesterday had I not myself saved him.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:12 pm
by Tchill13
In post 2311, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:If you two are just going to be brick walls and repeat the same play that essentially got Emperor lynched than I’ll just do the same.
In post 2333, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Or he’s scum because despite his claim, his play seems designed to look busy.
In post 2335, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:There was no risk to claiming there because of how A50 replaced out.
In post 2336, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:No there’s a difference between being busy actually playing and looking like you’re busy. The two massive posts he made are the latter.
In post 2409, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I don’t feel like my Datisi and Gobble reasons are without reason. I think I explained my issue with how tchill opened today and his case on me.
as scum do you choose to bring datisi or gobble to lylo?
In the current climate probably Datisi, as no-one else apart from Uzi particularly doubts Gobble, whereas everyone was content to lynch Datisi.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:13 pm
by Tchill13
In post 2710, Luca Blight wrote:I get the argument of bringing both Uzi and Gobble to LYLO being good scum play, but Klick was basically lock-towning Gobble just as much as you have been. He's basically shut himself off from voting him (unless something drastically changes), while Uzi was going to eat rope Yesterday had I not myself saved him.
klick was never in the position to have to choose with the spotlight on him. This should have happened. Sorry.
In post 1466, Klick wrote:And yes, 'why isn't Icon dead' is a very valid question.
I do not have an answer to this, but I consider it fully possible they chose an agressive strong town player over a player who claimed cop way too early and that there is a decent chance that was a fake claim. Not to mention the possibility of a protective being on a claimed cop.
I wanted to comment on the point you and tchill made about Alisae being a night kill for most players here but I thought better of it as it would require me referencing things that ultimately won’t lead us anywhere.
What I will say is that you two are probably right in regards to the Newbie and Normal queue. I cannot say the same for the other queues. This makes me think that the simplest explanation is most likely. Luca did bring up that A50 could have reasons for killing Alisae but my gut tells me we should be looking at him and Ico.
I wouldn’t give the A50 theory stock at all if it wasn’t for his 758.
I also would expect a miller here if we had some sort of protective role.
I’m still not understanding why you think Datisi is town.
Why do you think datisi is scum?
Are you giving Alisae any credit at all for her reads?
Answering my question with a question doesn’t quite answer mine at all my friend.
You opened today with a town read on Datisi because of how Alisae dismantled her wagon and then followed that up by saying you thought her wagon was higher than Kop’s before that took place.
My problem is that I don’t see what about these sequence of events wiped away your concerns and why do they suggest Datisi’s alignment? And what’s funny is that I just glanced at your ISO up until this point and you never stated why you thought she was scum. Which begs the question of why you were scum reading her for thinking her wagon was higher than Kop’s.
No because I don’t think that’s why they were killed. This wasn’t an obvious night kill so scum either killed them because they thought they were PR, to protect a partner, or to frame a townie. Alisae was playing really aggressive and loudly for scum to think she was a PR so I’m much more confident in the last two.
In post 2300, Iconeum wrote:LUV's reads the last week have been only pushing a claimed PR, and is now putting up a lynchlist that contains BOTH PR's.
LUV what is up with that? Can you explain your thoughts behind that?
My scum read of you stems from the Alisae kill. I had mentioned earlier that I believe the theory you shared with someone about most players would night kill Alisae here is wrong. I am still willing to accept it as your experience with them isn’t lengthy as mine and I can see some players who primarily play in the Normal queue doing so. I still believe Alisae’s play here did not set off PR alarm bells for scum though. So my question in regards to you was if you fear killed Alisae or were setup?
The mailman claim to be me is difficult for me to buy because I never seen the loyal modifier attached too. I’ve often seen the loud modifier attached to it. It’s also still very weak role overall and I know the NRG gives town a ton of power of these days.
Luca described my thoughts on Gobble perfectly to be honest.
In post 1333, Alisae wrote:I don’t feel like going through the open subforum to see how often he puts vigs in games
Someone else can do that
Gnite
There was also this post shortly after. I feel scum would have notice that the protective didn’t make the concerted effort to meta the setup designer and reviewers.
In post 1333, Alisae wrote:I don’t feel like going through the open subforum to see how often he puts vigs in games
Someone else can do that
Gnite
There was also this post shortly after. I feel scum would have notice that the protective didn’t make the concerted effort to meta the setup designer and reviewers.
I've never meta'd anything unless I'm just familiar with the person. What on earth would this have to do with ali's credibility as a softed pr?
If I’m a protective in the normal queue, I’d want to know the likelihood of a vigilante to confirm a player who claims it on the off chance I protected their target.
In post 2380, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Why do I have to provide reasoning on why everyone wouldn’t have killed Alisae? I said why I think Alisae was killed and you disagreed tchill. Cool. You then pointed out why and I stated that along with their overall play, there is a post that implies Alisae was not a protective PR.
A scum team would have to have shit for brains to think that Alisae was a protective in a game state where a cop was claimed with no additional limitations or modifiers and no red herrings such as a miller. It’s more likely they were killed for the reasons I had stated.
look at the extent LUV goes to discredit the soft from Ali.
if you follow my Klick theory on what he did as scum, its important to realize that Ali being night killed because of the soft is key since klick was the first to bring this up.
LUV constantly discredits the validity of the soft when it was CLEARLY what Ali was doing.
I'm not gonna fight it back all that hard. I am totally lost and can't say one player has more equity to be scum over another in this game state, and if we're/I'm resigned to the loss then it doesn't really matter whether I get lynched. I still would rather try lynching someone else just in case we are lucky and we hit scum though.
In post 1623, Almost50 wrote:OK. so I skimmed fast and it seems a couple of you really do suspect me! I dunno how I feel about that either. I mean, at face value I do understand the logic, but I dunno if someone who knows me should go down that route. Unfortunately none of you "knows" me, and that includes those who played with me before (maybe Icon knows me some.. but the last time we played we still were at each other's throats as TvT, so...)
OK, let me ask you all this:
Suppose I am today;s lynch and I flip town. Who's the second main suspect (provided I'm TOWN, so forget all about "your partner is X").
In post 1640, Almost50 wrote:So, I killed Ali because I defended Ali? I also defended Datisi, so why not her? Or Tchill for that matter. I seem to recall I said to give him another day (I hope I'm not confusing my games here. If I am.. disregard).
My problem is if I ISO each of you individually I get the feeling that "this is a town slot".. on its own. Knowing there has to be scum it's a given that I have not one but 2 bad reads. Which ones though? That I dunno, and I feel like I'm paralyzed yet being forces to race in the olympics.
I guess my problem is I haven't been playing micros for long. The bare minimum, for me is 12 players, not 9.
Yeah, yeah.. excuses.. excuses.. then lynch away. I am not going to suddenly get inspired and pull reads out of ass for you.
this dude isnt being survivalistic at all.
and when pressured about the ali lynch all he has to do is bring up the protective slot. he doesn't. I doubt he saw it. If he didn't see it why does he kill Ali?
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:38 pm
by Tchill13
In post 1654, Almost50 wrote:Don't you think if someone had the proper CC they would have done it already?
The problem with the massclaim is it also outs the protective (if any). If there's no protective, Icon is dead 100% of the time if he is town.
So let me put it this way:
Massclaim >> Doctor is outed >> Doctor is shot (regardless of Icon's true alignment)
Massclaim >> No Doctor >> Icon is dead (assuming he is town)
No Massclaim >> Icon has a chance to do something beneficial (if he is town)
No Massclaim >> An investigative flips or they get a result on Icon.. or they catch the other scum and then claim and we lynch them both (the caught scum and Icon)
Dude claimed cop when he didn't have to. Some say scum wouldn't claim dop d1. Well I say scum also wouldn't be on every L-1 wagon unless he's just that aggressive... He could be.
Alisae's last read was a luca/Icon scum team.
He used his action on the player most likely to be killed if town.
If icon is still alive next day phase he will automatically be my lynch. I'm not gonna risk scum skating by on a fake claim to a victory like that. That's on town if scum win by, fake claiming cop d1.
If you're right you are doing me a BIG favour bringing me into the spirit of the game.
If you're wrong I get to say "I told you so". It's fun for me either way, and I've got no better option really.
In post 1679, Almost50 wrote:I belive that is L-1 too. Any quick hammer is a scum claim
In post 1679, Almost50 wrote:I belive that is L-1 too. Any quick hammer is a scum claim
Somebody quick hammer. I'll hard tr you in lylo.
In post 1682, Tchill13 wrote:Why would I be wrong? And if there's enough reason for you to believe I maybe wrong why are you voting the only claimed PR as we might be heading into lylo?
What other choices do I have?? Do you want me to go back to the not voting pile??
In post 1683, Tchill13 wrote:I'll tell you rn if icon flips town and you're still on the board A50 your primary suspect number one
OK. No problem. Let's just hope you're right here and then you can still rub it in my face. Either way I am to blame, one way or another.
In post 1833, Almost50 wrote:I am out of sync in this game (not the only one) and it feels best if you lynch me today because I won't be of much use in LyLo
so A50 OPPOSED massclaim and he said we should lynch him...
If he's truthfully a n3 BG that believes he'll be lynched before n3 why even claim that? No he wont be of any use because we won't even get to his night phase from his pov.
and yes he lied about it but what good does it do even if he claims it?
and i've already stated the isses with a n3 BG claim on replace in.
he was AGAINST mass claim and said "lynch me"
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:45 pm
by Tchill13
In post 1607, Klick wrote:I've been unexpectedly stuck at my in-laws for 8 days and am getting the weekend as a break before going back there for an even longer amount of time. This weekend should be good for my activity. Here in a bit ill give this game a solid half-hour.
Heres where my head is currently at:
TOWN
Klick
LUV, Tchill
--- do not lynch above this line ---
Datisi
A50, Luca
Icon
SCUM
In post 1610, Klick wrote:I'll join the crowd of people waiting for LUV/A50 to weigh in on today's events.
In post 1625, Klick wrote:A50, at the moment I'm between you/Icon/Luca as likely scum, and you're mostly on the list because nothing your slot has done has given me any reason to think it's town.
In post 1651, Almost50 wrote:Almost50: That's me. I only have my role PM to argue with (and it's not available to any of you, so I perfectly understand). If I was a bypasser I'd wonder what this slot has done to be TR'd, but I also have the advantage of knowing me and knowing I'm not this passive as scum.. like EVER.
The very first game I checked to confirm this was evidence to the contrary...
In post 1820, Klick wrote:Something doesn't feel right.
I feel like A50's making life really unnecessarily difficult for himself if he's scum.
and while luca has brought up GREAT points about why he could see a klick/gobble team
Klick pushed A50 HARD mid-game. Klick never pushes LUV like this. Klick makes a few posts stating LUV over A50 as scum but never acts on it.
Klick is all game town LUV slot. Klick never TR's A50 slot until A50 begins acting all defeated right before replace out.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:12 pm
by Tchill13
SO IM SUMMARY OF THE TIME I ACTUALLY PUT IN EFFORT:
(descriptions are not in order of when things happened)
Klick: 1st to point out Ali protective soft. Emphasizes "what scum team kills Ali". CALLS FOR MASS CLAIM (in spite of the claimed cop pointing out they dont want the protective outed). Shades Icon HARD until Klick is forced to TR them due to lack of PR's. Shades A50 HARD until A50 seems to willingly be lynched without a fight at all then HARD TR's the slot the rest of the game. HARD TR's LUV the entire game (since the billy "test" which was at the beginning). Claims they'll lynch LUV before A50 but ultimately doesn't have to do anything in that situation. Begins to show aggression towards tchill for the first time in the d2 twilight phase.
LUV: most inactive slot. Discredits the Ali soft. Lists several reasons for voting A50/Gobble then votes datisi. Claims they listed several reasons datisi was scum (I didn't see this). Makes a few LAMIST post. Definitely doesn't look to be scum hunting much at all when active.
A50/Gobble: A50 fights AGAINST the mass claim. Claims VT. Suggest we lynch him because he won't be of use in lylo (Correct concerning a n3 BG if d2 is a ML). Literally gives up before replacing out. Gobble replaces in and claims n3 BG while also claiming they haven't read the thread. Uses a unique tool that doesn't have much equity.
Questions on Gobble: How do you replace into a scum slot in a game you haven't read? Why claim n3 BG when you could claim VT on d2 and then claim a PR d3 with various long term effects (at this point he would still be only other PR, making this believable, because i hadn't claimed yet) You open the door to a protective claim, a tracker claim.. You can claim doc d2. Leave icon alive d3. claim scum killed random n2 to throw shade at the protective... Claim VT d2, kill random n2, claim tracker d3 that tracked icon to the kill. If there's a letter to be read thats the "scum team" if there's no letter then he claims he sent "x" letter but you call him a liar. 1v1 an invest thats been alive 2 days after claim.
A50 was against mass claim. Said "lynch me before lylo". Gobble had a shit fake claim for scum. Yes he can "still" be scum but compared to the other 2 it's not as likely.
Luca: well i hard TR this slot. His progressions on Flippy/tchill scum team come from town. especially when we were both scum by PoE then all of a sudden scum together to strengthen his own thoughts of his PoE pool. He thinks Gobble is scum with a genius fake claim yet he's caught this fake claim. I believe thats town over thinking. Specifically town that thinks they "solved" something (ironically thats what i think atm of myself so this is NOT shade of luca).
gonna be really hard to change my perspective of this at all. Klick shaded icon hard. Klick called for massclaim. Klick brought up the ali soft 1st late game while "wondering" why scum killed ali n1. LUV has been hard TR'd by klick all game. LUV discredits the ali soft while claiming they have multiple reasons to vote for datisi (i never seen it, seen several for voting A50/gobble). A50 fought massclaim. Gobble is doing weird and bad shit if scum (im using the same principles to town clear gobble that i used to town clear flippy. Luca is just my hard TR today. If he's scum great job buddy.
A50 fought massclaim. Did not claim a PR under pressure with nothing else to save him. Gobble made a shit fake claim. Regardless of the thoughts on gobbles claim A50's points still stand. A50 ALONE looks much better than Klick does due to the handling of icon and mass claim.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:16 pm
by Luca Blight
I wouldn't say Klick pushed A50
that
hard. He made a few posts against him, but when the pressure started to ratchet up he posted this:
In post 1820, Klick wrote:Something doesn't feel right.
I feel like A50's making life really unnecessarily difficult for himself if he's scum.
Which spelled the end of the real pressure on A50's slot, until I began suspecting Gobble.
When push comes to shove, when Uzi's slot was actually in danger of being lynched, Klick didn't hold firm to his Uzi TR and sided with Gobble instead. He may not have
acted
on it, but clearly if push came to shove he would have lynched Uzi ahead of Gobble.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:21 pm
by Tchill13
you cant say that for sure though because push never came to shove. We can all sya things. Doing them is different. I dont think he meant it and i actually think LUV being the SECOND strongest TR makes sense. Scum dont want their buddy to be the STRONGEST TR the entire game?
andhe did push a50 substantially. Maybe not as hard as i implied but he did push A50 at one point. I dont believe he ever pushed LUV even half as much as he did A50. He never made a case. He never pushed for answeres. He simply said "id vote LUV over A50 if the time comes" and it conveniently never did.
In post 1823, Klick wrote:I'm going back to the eternal question: what scumteam actually decides to kill Alisae over Icon last night?
Knowing what we know now, scum probably don't have much power themselves considering all we have is Loyal Mailman. They could probably reasonably assume town didn't have much power. I don't think the immediate assumption is that we have a protective with a Cop claim.
Datisi/A50 both noticed and reacted to the claim. Luca claims to have noticed but didn't give any indication of that until D2 (but tbf I do think he noticed - I think he's the type to have read through the whole thread as either alignment). LUV didn't acknowledge the claim yesterday. Tchill actively claims to have not seen it.
But then Alisae's strong townreads were Tchill/LUV/myself. I really don't think they choose to kill her.
quoting this again to highlight...
3 of the remaining 5 players are in that sentence.
if LUV and Klick are scum that noticed the ali crumb...
What a perfect post.
also this Luca. This is huge.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:28 pm
by Luca Blight
Just dropping this here for reference:
In post 2254, Tchill13 wrote:
I'd claim vt during mass and claim something else during lylo. Makingg sure I crumbed d1 to back up my lylo claim.
I do think there are certain things people just don't do when they're scum that they do when they're town. To that end, meta isn't trash.
