Mini 2032: TAZ Mafia: Murder on the Rockport Limited [over]

[Shoshin]

No lynch was fine for two reasons. One, we already got rid of scum's extra killing role, so the likelihood that scum would end up with another kill was very, very low. I was willing to take that risk so that we could narrow the pool as well as use our roles. Two, we prevented Pork from getting any extra gold on NSG's lynch, which worried me a lot more than the gacha items.

No lynching isn't always the right move, but it's not always the wrong move, either. In this game, it had no impact on our loss. None. The no lynch isn't the cause of Nos voting me, nor is it the cause of NSG somehow avoiding death. No matter how you spin it, the no lynch is NOT the reason we lost.

[Shoshin]

You see the quotes I made above?
How town had scum at L-1 and because of your frequent suggestions of a no-lynch INSTEAD OF LYNCHING CONFIRMED SCUM, town doubted and went with the no lynch?

Yes, you didn't SINGLE HANDEDLY LOSE THE GAME FOR TOWN, but you sure did PLAY A HUGE ROLE IN IT

Do you understand the concept of cause and effect?

The no lynch had zero impact on our loss. It is NOT what caused Nos to vote for me.

[Lycanfire]

Shoshin was pretty scummy by overtly pretending to be BP and the switcheroo business. NSG should have been lynched in every world but I understand how Nos4a2 scumread her.

[Shoshin]

Do you want to know what CAUSED our loss?

Townies mislynching Irrelephant, Reck, and me. Those were the game-losing mislynches.

Mislynching Kokichi was irrelevant, since he was hated.

[Shoshin]

Lycanfire, I never pretended to be BP.

I admit that I played very poorly by sing the switcheroo on skitter. That was my worst play in the game, by far. It didn't lose us the game, but I could have used the gold much more effectively, to be sure.

[Lycanfire]

The problem with arguing best mechanical play all the time, Shoshin, is that you start sounding like Reasonably Rational, who absolutely would argue best mechanical play as scum.

[Irrelephant11]

Varsoon, skitter and nos aren't just the left and right hands of shoshin. Both of them had the opportunity to vote scum and didn't take it. Shoshin's loss of interest and incorrect read on skitter made it hard for skitter and shoshin to get on the same page, but that doesn't mean skitter and nos's play are shoshin's fault.

tbf I think nsg upped the quality of her play jsut enough when she needed to the most, and though no one played *impressively* this game I do want to shout out nsg for that moment in mylo that may have been game-winning in retrospect

[northsidegal]

i think from an objective standpoint everything i said regarding shoshin + gamma, the possibility of shoshin not actually having bought switcheroo, her lying about the 1-shot cop and just playing strangely in general were true

obviously not correct but from an objective standpoint i would say that there were plenty of good reasons to scumread shoshin

No lynch was fine for two reasons. One, we already got rid of scum's extra killing role, so the likelihood that scum would end up with another kill was very, very low. I was willing to take that risk so that we could narrow the pool as well as use our roles. Two, we prevented Pork from getting any extra gold on NSG's lynch, which worried me a lot more than the gacha items.

no lynching to prevent porkens getting gold wouldn't mean anything when come tomorrow he would vote me anyways. if anything lynching me in mylo wouldn't have had him on the wagon whereas lynching him after we came up with the plan for him to track me would have had him on the wagon

[northsidegal]

i think from an objective standpoint everything i said regarding shoshin + gamma, the possibility of shoshin not actually having bought switcheroo, her lying about the 1-shot cop and just playing strangely in general were true

obviously not correct but from an objective standpoint i would say that there were plenty of good reasons to scumread shoshin

wow north what a genius, everything from an objective standpoint was true and also not correct from an objective standpoint

what i mean is that knowing the answer it wasn't correct but from an uninformed perspective what i was saying made complete logical sense

[skitter30]

thanks xyzzy for modding

sorry for messing up mylo; i should have lynched nsg there

not a very good game for me

[skitter30]

btw y'all wish me luck buying a ticket to Candlenights in 20 minutes

idk how many of you wished me luck, but your wishes helped and I'm officially going to Candlenights! yippee

that sounds like fun and i hope you have a great time!!!

[Shoshin]

The problem with arguing best mechanical play all the time, Shoshin, is that you start sounding like Reasonably Rational, who absolutely would argue best mechanical play as scum.

I don't know what "mechanical play" refers to. Nor am I arguing about what's the best play at this point. I'm talking about what caused the town's loss in this game... and it wasn't my play... like, this obviously wasn't my best play, but I still made myself obvious town throughout the game, still argued against multiple mislynches, prevented a mislynch that almost certainly would have happened in my absence (Gamma), roleblocked scum, and was the only person voting scum (NSG) when the game ended... so it's a bit absurd to argue I'm one of the main reasons we lost...

[northsidegal]

i would like to point out that the day before mylo me and porkens could have quickhammered Gamma and then coordinated to speedlynch kokichi

for no reason in particular

[Shoshin]

i think from an objective standpoint everything i said regarding shoshin + gamma, the possibility of shoshin not actually having bought switcheroo, her lying about the 1-shot cop and just playing strangely in general were true

obviously not correct but from an objective standpoint i would say that there were plenty of good reasons to scumread shoshin

No lynch was fine for two reasons. One, we already got rid of scum's extra killing role, so the likelihood that scum would end up with another kill was very, very low. I was willing to take that risk so that we could narrow the pool as well as use our roles. Two, we prevented Pork from getting any extra gold on NSG's lynch, which worried me a lot more than the gacha items.

no lynching to prevent porkens getting gold wouldn't mean anything when come tomorrow he would vote me anyways. if anything lynching me in mylo wouldn't have had him on the wagon whereas lynching him after we came up with the plan for him to track me would have had him on the wagon

Buying switcheroo was a mistake on my part... I misunderstood what it did when I bought it on N2, and then I had to live with the consequences lol

I think lying about the 1-shot cop was a good move, mostly because I really needed to keep Gamma from being mislynched and he was the main target of players like Nos/Skitter, as well as you and Pork. I don't think faking results is bad play if you're right about the result, and I was confident enough in that read to fake the result.

[Shoshin]

i would like to point out that the day before mylo me and porkens could have quickhammered Gamma and then coordinated to speedlynch kokichi

for no reason in particular

That's part of my point. I was the only person strongly arguing against that lynch... and if not for me, this game would have been lost a lot quicker...

[Shoshin]

I also argued with you, North, against both Irrelephant lynch and Reck lynch... as well as with others... so like, I was arguing against mislynches...

[RadiantCowbells]

Shoshin you did good

You're being attacked by a group who wants to assert moral superiority as opposed to wanting to make a meaningful comment.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, skitter and nos aren't just the left and right hands of shoshin. Both of them had the opportunity to vote scum and didn't take it. Shoshin's loss of interest and incorrect read on skitter made it hard for skitter and shoshin to get on the same page, but that doesn't mean skitter and nos's play are shoshin's fault.

tbf I think nsg upped the quality of her play jsut enough when she needed to the most, and though no one played *impressively* this game I do want to shout out nsg for that moment in mylo that may have been game-winning in retrospect

Trust, I think Skitter and Nos were also equally complicit in the game turning out this way--Nos more than skitter, but it takes a town to lose as a town, y'know?

I don't think that's a shout-out worthy moment. NSG was dead to rights and the blatant showing-up-just-to-defend-herself after a whole game of being absent shouldn't have bought her anything. It worked, and for that, yeah, good stuff, but eeeugh. It makes my skin crawl thinking that town let that skirt by.

[Varsoon]

Shoshin you did good

You're being attacked by a group who wants to assert moral superiority as opposed to wanting to make a meaningful comment.

Get off your high horse, you peasant.
Shoshin should learn here that a no lynch in a closed setup is nearly always the worst play town can make, and the more you insist Shoshin should just blindly think their play is 'good' without taking any criticism, the more you reveal the base of your inability to grow as a player.

[Shoshin]

I dunno... it just feels very unfair to me to say I played a massive part in the town's loss when I feel like I spent most of the game trying to keep the town from mislynching, I roleblocked scum when I got that item, and then I voted scum at LYLO...

And as Irrelephant knows, I definitely am not the kind of player who just refuses to admit when I played bad. I actually write down all the ways I want to improve from each game, including this one. I just think my play wasn't anything like what Varsoon is making it out to be...

[Varsoon]

You helped keep town from mislynching but that doesn't mean you drove lynches on scum, which is what wins town the game.

Next time please focus on getting scum lynched.

[skitter30]

Trust, I think Skitter and Nos were also equally complicit in the game turning out this way--Nos more than skitter, but it takes a town to lose as a town, y'know?

i'm aware that part of this was my fault
not all of it, but yeah, i did screw up, and i take responsibility for my part in that, and i like to think i learned a few things for next time

i also don't really think much constructive will happen about arguing what went wrong here either but yeah

[Varsoon]

I just really, really want Shoshin to focus more on lynching scum and never no-lynching in a closed setup again.

[Varsoon]

Sorry if that comes as accusatory. Obviously, I'm more than a bit sore that I played mechanically well but still lost game despite that.

[Shoshin]

Reasonable people can disagree about the merit of no lynching at MYLO.

I think Varsoon's approach -- never no lynch at MYLO -- is wrong on its face, for the simple reason that there are no hardline rules in mafia that always apply. Sometimes you shouldn't no lynch; other times, you should.

The difficulty is weighing the risks against the potential rewards. In this case, I think the potential rewards outweighed the risks (which were really, really low). We no lynched. And if things had gone according to plan, we should have lynched NSG afterwards. Nobody could have predicted that Nos would vote me instead of NSG... if I made any error, it was putting too much faith in Nos to vote NSG... and yeah, I'll be more wary of players like him in the future in these situations...