Starcraft Mafia: Legacy of the Void [Game Over]

[u r a person 2]

This isn't strictly relevant because it's about M:tG, but this setup goes against five or six different lessons mentioned in the video. Worth a thought.

Spoiler:

[u r a person 2]

Also, I saw that some people argued that scum utilizing cerb's role was a mistake on their part.

If that's true, then having optimal scum play be to NOT utilize their primary role is also bad game design.

[Krazy]

I mean you replaced out while in the process of being nightkilled as a mech town slot due to the flavor not being revealed when I literally put an image of amon in the reveal for Cerb... Like the town concluded cerb was amon within like... What 10 posts of the start of the next day? The flavor association with kills wasn't supposed to be game defining anyway; volxen's role was designed to disrupt kill flavor spec even though scum never used it.

I mean you're welcome to dislike the setup, I was intentionally exploring roles that would push the bounds here and I was aware there was the risk that some people wouldn't like it. But I also feel like I talked about this a fair amount in dead thread and don't feel inclined to repeat those points.

[Krazy]

Also, I saw that some people argued that scum utilizing cerb's role was a mistake on their part.

If that's true, then having optimal scum play be to NOT utilize their primary role is also bad game design.

I wasn't saying that utilizing the role at all was bad, I was saying scumclaiming to lynch someone who could have gone down anyway and who was not a strong PR was not an optimal usage of the role.

[u r a person 2]

You're right that I tilt-replaced. It took me a long time to figure out exactly why I felt the setup was so bad, and in the end it wasn't because of a flavor reveal. I couldn't post in the dead thread, so this is the only outlet for me to put these thoughts into.

I don't think you were wrong to try to push boundaries. It did kill the fun for me, and the game being balanced around the role doesn't change that. It feels shitty to lynch correctly and have that be anti-town. I'm not even sure it would be possible to avoid lynching cerb at the right time. The game was large enough that he would have had to play very poorly to get lynched prior to activating (scum never busses him day 1, 2), and town is not in a position to deduce that lynching scum is anti-town.

[Iconeum]

Good game guys.

Krazy, thanks for hosting and the overall good modding. Next time I won't be bothering you with anymore 'holy shit how is this game not bastard, you bastard!!!!???!!!' type of PM's lol

[u r a person 2]

Also, I saw that some people argued that scum utilizing cerb's role was a mistake on their part.

If that's true, then having optimal scum play be to NOT utilize their primary role is also bad game design.

I wasn't saying that utilizing the role at all was bad, I was saying scumclaiming to lynch someone who could have gone down anyway and who was not a strong PR was not an optimal usage of the role.

fair enough

[Pink Ball]

URAP2, we all know you repped out 'cause you missed the Powerpuff Girls

[Iconeum]

Liger/Ico/Moon/A50/RCE looks like a full-town wagon though.

[u r a person 2]

and, to correct the record, I replaced out because the game felt bastard. I've since been corrected as to that viewpoint.

[Krazy]

Lynching Cerb was not incorrect though... It wasn't anti-town. You still get the information he is a red slot, the roleblock, and a fairly strong understanding of the power structure of the scum. Like you can choose to believe that scum not having a full tempo loss there is anti-town, but it gives town an alternative to no lynching that is still informative.

Still, if you dislike the role you dislike the role. I did go through a large part of the design phase planning to have it be revealed in the ad thread, and the changes that led me to make it revealed instead on death effect was still debatable I think, but like the way I was looking at this was:

What is a strong scum power that can buffer against the functionality of even night gun vending?

One solution would have been giving scum a dayvig of their own, but I thought that would be unfun for the town player shot.
One solution would be to have scum be the ones vending the guns (compulsive disloyal gunvendor was an early iteration of amon) but ultimately this felt like overly controlling scum night actions
One option was scum treestump but if so then I would have needed to add a lot more scum power elsewhere, but I wanted there to be one goon and I more or less liked the interactions of the other three scumroles.

And ultimately I liked the idea of a scenario where the revealed amon would then be interacting with a still hidden traitor that then would know 2/3 of the scumteam.

But the bottom line was that this was one mechanic for scum to maintain tempo and deal with the town power structure.

for me though I think the most interesting thing was the tonal shift... Like reading town vs scum after the reveal, I think you can tell who knew about the role beforehand and who didn't. And in that sense, since the scum team had to fake their reactions to the reveal of cerb's role and try to participate in the bus, it ended up being massively informative for town. So this argument that it was "antitown" to lynch cerb just doesn't hold up for me.

[Krazy]

Scum PT: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=79426

Mason PT: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=79424

[u r a person 2]

Your design analysis seems reasonable, well thought out, and certainly better than I would have been able to do to balance that role.

If no-lynching is generally anti-town, then lynching scum just to find out you've no lynched is also anti-town. That scum was unable to play around the associatives doesn't change that, I don't think? As much as it is anti-town, it's also anti-fun. And I think you can see that in how after a few pages where town was dealing with the aftermath of the flip, the game stagnated. At one point you had to ask the game to not make you prod three players at once.

If you look at the video, one of the lessons he pushes is "don't design something just to prove you can"
Another is "interesting != fun" and a third is "make what's fun also be the correct play" Lynching scum is fun for town. Working to not get lynched is fun for scum. That's the basis of this game we play.

In respect for you and for the effort you put into this, I'll leave the last word to you here, if you'd like it. I'm happy to agree to disagree, and I'd also like to thank you for showing restraint in how you described my replacement in the dead thread. You could have painted me far worse.

[Almost50]

Night Six: If I had successfully pushed Icon's mislynch on day six, I would have killed Liger on night six. Previously I considered the possible advantage of having both Shiro and Liger alive in lylo (that Shiro would vote for Liger in lylo), but then RCE later revealed that when he gives someone a gun, that person becomes a dayvig the following day. Before RCE revealed that, we assumed that whoever he gave a gun to would become a nightvig the following night. And I was nearly 100% certain that following Icon's mislynch, RCE would have given a gun to Liger because 1) he was heavily townreading him and 2) he would assume that we would kill Almost50. So we would have had no choice but to kill Liger here to prevent him from being able to dayvig me, and then we would have tried to push either Shiro or RCE during day seven lylo

I don't think Icon ever gets lynched following the tbd lynch. But I almost pivoted to pushing Shiro so we could shoot one of liger/Volxen and Lynch the other. I was always going to gun A50 that night because he's the obvious kill and scum knows I know he's the obvious kill so I'd wifom and gun a scumread or something. But idk if scum is in a 10 layer deep meta rabbit hole so there's that.

Damn, good on you then, if you really would have gunned Almost50 then that alone would have guaranteed town's victory as Almost50 could have simply shot me or shot Shiro and then I would have still been lynched. I really didn't think that you would try to out WIFOM us with mindgames regarding who you would give a gun to, but apparently you were already thinking along those lines.

The funny thing is: I STILL WOULD NOT HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO USE MY N7 VIG SHOT!

Oh, and btw.. @MLJ: I didn't even know you were actually playing the game. You were too quiet for long periods and when PPG tried to bait you to post you stalled and then disappeared, so I assumed cerb was running the whole show.

[MaryJoLisa]

The game was so far over my head and I was hopelessly lost from day 1. I stuck around the whole time and learned some new things, though.

[Shiro]

Move on people, boring topic. Let's talk about how amazing our PPG roleplay was and how much you missed it during the rest of the game

I missed it D:

[Ellibereth]

Hi.

Don't know any context other than the last few pages but it made me happy that someone is keeping tabs on last online info. I approve Liger.

[volxen]

Night Six: If I had successfully pushed Icon's mislynch on day six, I would have killed Liger on night six. Previously I considered the possible advantage of having both Shiro and Liger alive in lylo (that Shiro would vote for Liger in lylo), but then RCE later revealed that when he gives someone a gun, that person becomes a dayvig the following day. Before RCE revealed that, we assumed that whoever he gave a gun to would become a nightvig the following night. And I was nearly 100% certain that following Icon's mislynch, RCE would have given a gun to Liger because 1) he was heavily townreading him and 2) he would assume that we would kill Almost50. So we would have had no choice but to kill Liger here to prevent him from being able to dayvig me, and then we would have tried to push either Shiro or RCE during day seven lylo

I don't think Icon ever gets lynched following the tbd lynch. But I almost pivoted to pushing Shiro so we could shoot one of liger/Volxen and Lynch the other. I was always going to gun A50 that night because he's the obvious kill and scum knows I know he's the obvious kill so I'd wifom and gun a scumread or something. But idk if scum is in a 10 layer deep meta rabbit hole so there's that.

Damn, good on you then, if you really would have gunned Almost50 then that alone would have guaranteed town's victory as Almost50 could have simply shot me or shot Shiro and then I would have still been lynched. I really didn't think that you would try to out WIFOM us with mindgames regarding who you would give a gun to, but apparently you were already thinking along those lines.

The funny thing is: I STILL WOULD NOT HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO USE MY N7 VIG SHOT!

Oh, and btw.. @MLJ: I didn't even know you were actually playing the game. You were too quiet for long periods and when PPG tried to bait you to post you stalled and then disappeared, so I assumed cerb was running the whole show.

I actually posted the most in the scum Discord channel, but Cerb came in second. MJL actually posted a fair amount in the scum Discord channel as well.

[popsofctown]

Also, i get your point FB. I guess it just feels so egregious because it's based on something you can't actually control if you choose to login, and because other, similar pushes are based on an action taken, rather than the absence of any action, which you then attach meaning to.

Like, do we really want to oush people to never read their games unless they're prepared to make posts as well? Because that's what this does.

And just another point...I've definitely noted such things myself, and used it as another data point...but I've never used it as part of a case against someone. Bringing it to the thread is definitely ageist the spirit of the rules.

I mean the game isn't locked from you viewing it offline....and liger couldn't see offline reading.

Agreed. But this, again, requires a rather ridiculous departure from what is likely the normal behavior of people to...log into their account, to avoid this particular brand of angleshooting.

Not logging in means site navigation, which is just another barrier to play.

And then if you do run into something you want to reply to, now theres that delay between deciding to post and being able to post. Not a huge thing, but it can definitely mess with how organic your posting is as any alignment.

I'm less empathetic to this because it's a hydra. And in the dead thread, Stealth hydra seemed to express as much.

When you decide to form a hydra, you decide that you are going to have twice as much manpower in your slot, twice as many brains forming reads/PR Hunting, and/or a baked in excuse for expressing reads that go in one direction but establishing a mislynch voting record in a different direction. The least you can do in exchange is either adopt a high involvement playstyle or bother with the two additional clicks for site navigation to obfuscate when you actually read the game. Letting you choose between those is pretty generous. Because opponents that didn't use a hydra are going to either make far more clicks just from hitting "Iso Alice, Iso Bob", to say nothing of committing a lot more to the game to stay on par.

This stuff doesn't apply to individual accounts the same way. I might log in to check a mishmash game I am moderating or something so my logins mean less. I might log in just out of habit then immediately close the window because I need to be doing something more important.

[popsofctown]

I couldn't bring this up in the game without rolefishing myself, but RCE why did you claim no-movement D2? Our name positions switched, it was imperceptible to scum whether I moved up or you moved down.
By saying you don't know why my name moved you're claiming not to have the PR that moved it. As it turns out my PR was more powerful than yours, IMO, if you are hipster enough to disagree with that, it could have been adjacency cop for all you know. But you opened me up to increased roleblocking for little discernible benefit. I was trying to protect you.

If you had moved down I probably wouldn't have said anything but you moved in FL's direction whom I was hard townreading and thought that was your target. A50 was also up there but after the Mason claim came out you didn't move and I realized... I was just really bad. Then I still voted you to bait scum on your wagon. Really sorry q.q

My number 1 goal in moving was PPG for the record. Was my strongest townread early on.

[mastina]

One of the previous paragons used activity as a means of reading people so it's likely just personal preference.

For the record, as both town/scum I like to exploit this whenever playing not on my main (and, sometimes, if I can get away with it, on my main, too!) and deliberately don't log onto my account during the night at all. (Provided that I have a method of getting actions in, if I have them.)

Never comes up, tho. And I don't make use of it as a scumhunting tool, but if someone points it out I might back them up if I feel their suspicion might be productive.

[mastina]

FGSm how far up should I go to reach the top of that discord channel? I don't like reading from the middle, so I am still climbing up to reach the start and it looks further than the South pole to me still.

Which one, the cow level? That's been around for months and by now has like. A million messages in it. I don't even think that's even an exaggeration; if not a million, then upper hundreds of thousands for sure.

[Almost50]

I was talking about the PPG turned into Dead Thread channel. I have a slow connection.

[Ankamius]

FGSm how far up should I go to reach the top of that discord channel? I don't like reading from the middle, so I am still climbing up to reach the start and it looks further than the South pole to me still. :lol:

Which one, the cow level? That's been around for months and by now has like. A million messages in it. I don't even think that's even an exaggeration; if not a million, then upper hundreds of thousands for sure.

You're welcome