Mini 1398 - Game Over!

[Disturbed_One]

Nacho suddenly abandoning this case actually does strike me as somewhat suspicious, believe it or not. Considering how hard Nacho has been pushing for the lynch on Bacde, I totally have a problem with him trying to get off the wagon now.

As Ice and I have stated, the Bodyguard role-claim is a very safe role-claim. The fact that Nacho is now suddenly convinced and even conveniently has reasoning for why Bacde is town seems weird.

Shamrock is obvscum, but I am definitely starting to get suspicious of Nacho.

[Nachomamma8]

why do you think the switch makes me scum?

[absta101]

@Jabb - Back off Bacde for today. Question his reads tomorrow.
You look worse for that push.

[absta101]

Need to look at the Username guy.

[Jabberwock]

@Jabb - Back off Bacde for today. Question his reads tomorrow.
You look worse for that push.

Our second scumread should be obvious, but we are biding our time since we are waiting on people and we actually want explanations for those reads. Waiting for them to become even more outdated is nonsensical, as then Bacde can use excuses like "it has been so long I forgot" or discuss them with his scumbuddies at night. The time to explain them is now, even if we don't see a need to lynch him Today.

[absta101]

That makes some sense. Okay.

[Bacde]

@Jabb - Back off Bacde for today. Question his reads tomorrow.
You look worse for that push.

Our second scumread should be obvious, but we are biding our time since we are waiting on people and we actually want explanations for those reads. Waiting for them to become even more outdated is nonsensical, as then Bacde can use excuses like "it has been so long I forgot" or discuss them with his scumbuddies at night. The time to explain them is now, even if we don't see a need to lynch him Today.

Would you seriously accept me saying "it has been so long I forgot" if I said that tomorrow? Do you think I would say that as scum

or

as town? Do you even think I will be alive tomorrow?

I honestly don't see how outting a list of bulletpoint reasons for my reads would help you in anyway, especially considering that you seem convinced that I am scum. I do see how you not answering my questions hinders discussion, however.

One other reason I don't want to out my reads reasonings is because it establishes dominance, which is something that I am not interested in letting you do. I don't understand why you need to become so dominant over me. If you think I am scum, then push on me for it. Why were you so convinced of the shamrock case but now are holding back?

absta is obviously town for his healthy distrust of you.

@absta, do you see Disturbed_One as town? How do you feel about his potential read change on Nacho?

[ICEninja]

Just a quick comment I meant to say earlier (I'll give more thoughts when I have more time) I use both third and first person for different reasons. I use third person when I'm addressing the town and trying to convince them of something (Shamrock is scum, we should lynch him) and first person when I'm talking to that person specifically (You're looking awfully scummy, why shouldn't we lynch you?).

These can change mid post.

[Disturbed_One]

why do you think the switch makes me scum?

Well, it doesn't "make" you scum. But it did seem a bit fishy.

You claim to have found reasoning for Bacde being town that Username pointed out. So I'm just wondering why you didn't switch sooner. If you thought he was town, why did you wait for him to claim before pointing it out?

[Jabberwock]

Oh for pity's sake, Bacde. Now you're trying to paint it as a matter of "dominance"? We asked you to explain your reads, you refused, we asked again, you refused again--we can argue that you're trying to establish dominance by refusing to explain your reads and be here all week. That's pointless.

You're digging your heels in and being stubborn. This is ridiculous, as if you are Town, you are likely to die at Night sooner rather than later. Why do you refuse to explain your reads now, when doing so may be one of your final chances of making a difference in Dayplay?

We don't want "bulletpoint reasons" for your reads. If those are anything like the three "bulletpoint" reasons you gave for Nacho, they are trash. There is no need for you to be cagey about your reads' reasons as Town, but there is a lot of reasoning to do so as scum.

Look, Bacde. It's obvious you aren't getting lynched Today. But we want explanations now, because they are long overdue. A list of reads with no explanation does nothing to diminish our scumread on you. An explanation of those reads in Post 230 might. We are not interested in the reads changes that come after those; if you want to keep them secret for bodyguard reasons, that's fine, but you outed those reads then, so you must be able to explain them and their order. Please do so. There is really no Town motivation to continue refusing to do this.


...and we aren't voting Shamrock because he's at L-2 and there are people who haven't caught up. It's obvious he is our second scumread. Are you even reading our posts?

[jmo16mla]

I find that nacho getting off the wagon quite fishy also..
But. He has played enough games on site to know that people would suspect him about it. I'm pretty sure he's town. Why would he as scum do it like that if he knows it would attract attention?

[Bacde]

^Good post, but you are using WIFOM logic. Why would scum do anything scummy if they know that it is scummy?

[jmo16mla]

They wouldn't... I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

[Bacde]

@Jabberwock you tell me that I'm "painting" this as though the way I see our interaction is false. It isn't. This

is

a matter of dominance. However, here are my reads in the hopes you will agree with them tomorrow.

You, absta, and jmo all seem town based on the tone of your posts. jmo is town because he defended himself about something that happened to him IRL with nothing to hold back. He has a very genuine attitude. You are town because of the way Dire_Drenz replaced out and because of your posts like this:

Hi scum.

Which obviously took effort and is of a style I haven't seen coming from scum.

absta is town because he is logical, is not buddying with anyone, and I actually tend to agree with most of his reads, or at least his reasoning.

Dunhamganger to redrabbit I mostly placed in an arbitrary order, these are my null reads for the most part. I tried to order them based on how many scum-like interactions I've seen them have with other players and how hard the player is attempting to scumhunt.

Disturbed_One and Mirhawk have actually changed places for me on the list. Mirhawk definitely changed opinions on me quickly just like Nacho did (seems like a defensive ploy for when I flip town), and Disturbed gained brownie points with me for not just automatically buying whatever Nacho says.

Shamrock just isn't playing in a townlike manner. I voted him initially because he was a lurker and I was hoping to get pressure off of me so I wouldn't have to claim (although I did see your reasons for suspecting him before I voted), but since then he seems unusually aggressive for a person who isn't helping generate discussion.

And of course there is Nachomamma8, this player who was willing to type long "cases" on other players at the beginning of the game, underhandedly cut off arguments that other players make, switch opinions on me last second, and then literally question others about how that seems scummy rather than addressing their points. Note how now he is no longer attempting to build cases but instead types shorter posts as if to check in and say "yup, I'm town guys".

So there you go. I hope you are happy. Also note that the "seeing if someone else suspects before placing a vote" is never a scumtell on its own, its always about

context

.

P-Edit:
@jmo16mla If we decide to use the reasoning of "Oh he can't be scum because he did something scummy which is something scum would never do" we would never be able to find scum!

[Jabberwock]

See, that wasn't so hard. I particularly like this:

Dunhamganger to redrabbit I mostly placed in an arbitrary order, these are my null reads for the most part.

[snip]

I voted him initially because he was a lurker and I was hoping to get pressure off of me

It rings honest; those were some of the things that were coming across as really sketchy. Town can also do sketchy (and survivalistic :/) moves, but 'fessing up is a good Town move.


Anything you'd like to know from us?

[Nachomamma8]

You claim to have found reasoning for Bacde being town that Username pointed out. So I'm just wondering why you didn't switch sooner. If you thought he was town, why did you wait for him to claim before pointing it out?

As soon as I started to have doubts, Jabberwock replaced in and made a fairly strong push against Bacde with Bacde throwing that weird vote on Shamrock, which made me doubt my doubts. So I hung back a little bit to form a better read on him, and claiming did a lot for that read. It's one thing to stay stubborn for as long as possible as scum, but when you're run up to L-1 and it's claim time, generally you start looking to change up your play a bit and put forth a last resort. Bacde had the bodyguard claim, which is NOT a good claim for scum to make so early, and he didn't drop his scumread of me even a little bit, despite the fact that he acknowledged it was a major cause of people attacking him, and despite the fact that he didn't really have anything new to bring to the table. Also, it's a huge plus getting him in a claim today as opposed to tomorrow where he could talk with his scumbuddies about a fakeclaim overnight, and it settles the Bacde situation today as opposed to letting him live longer to be mislynched later.

feeling absta as a scumbuddy right now, with mirhawk/iam as possible thirds.
would like to hear more from all of them about scumreads though.

[Disturbed_One]

@ Nacho:

Actually your defense comes off as very genuine to me, I could see why Jabberwock made you doubt yourself because they make very compelling arguments in general. I'll accept that.

I don't understand the bodyguard thing, though. Why is that a bad claim for scum? Ice actually argued it would be a safe claim to make and I agreed, mind elaborating on that point?

Why is absta scum?

---

I'm still not entirely sure about Bacde, but the point that his almost stubborn pursuit of the case on Nacho is very townish is a compelling one. At the moment, I think Shamrock is the best vote. He is obvscum for power-lurking and posting absolutely zero usable content.

[Mirhawk]

Scumreads?

Sham obviously. This is based almost entirely off his active lurking.

Gets a little muddy after that though.
Next would be disturbed. He seems almost a little too earnest sometimes, he flip flops his opinion a lot too. He also switches between reasoning things out in a fairly well thought out manner, and being a super-noob who apologizes for his logic and feigns inexperience fairly regularly. It feels off to me.

Cheery also sets of warning bells. He read ten pages of the thread and zero opinions from it, surely something should have stood out. This also conveniently gives him the opportunity to not vote sham.

@Disturbed
It's a bad claim because of how it interacts with doctors. A Doctor and bodyguard protecting each other can be unkillable. Doc's are common, so there was a pretty good chance that one is in the game.

[Alduskkel]

Vote Count #11

Shamrock (5) - Bacde, ICEninja, Mirhawk, Disturbed_One, Nachomamma8
Disturbed_One (2) - jmo16mla, Shamrock
ICEninja (1) - Dunhamganger
Bacde (1) - Jabberwock
Mirhawk (1) - iamausername

Not Voting (3) - Cheery Dog, Melmond, absta101

Deadline is in: (expired on 2012-12-15 00:00:00)

13 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Cheery Dog]

Cheery also sets of warning bells. He read ten pages of the thread and zero opinions from it, surely something should have stood out. This also conveniently gives him the opportunity to not vote sham.

I did gain some minor reads from the readthrough, but since they're currently listed in my brain as "gut" and "maybe for sheeping", I don't have certain posts from reading that I'm able to show how I produced the reads, therefore I'm working from scratch as if I never did read the thread.
The small reads I have will probably get ISOed at see if the whole thing paints a story, but only if I can't work off them right now.

Though I think I may have read too much into each of the cases and agreed with them, my current scum reads are pretty much level with the current thoughts of the town. (and Bacde came close to being voted with Jabberwock's case, and probably would have been (well except it would have been a lynch and I want to be more acquainted with this game before that happens) if it wasn't a claim I believe it probably true.

[Disturbed_One]

Next would be disturbed. He seems almost a little too earnest sometimes, he flip flops his opinion a lot too. He also switches between reasoning things out in a fairly well thought out manner, and being a super-noob who apologizes for his logic and feigns inexperience fairly regularly. It feels off to me.

@Disturbed
It's a bad claim because of how it interacts with doctors. A Doctor and bodyguard protecting each other can be unkillable. Doc's are common, so there was a pretty good chance that one is in the game.

Thanks for answering my question, that makes sense.

How does one go about being too earnest? Please explain how apparently being completely open with people is scummy. (Which is the only plausible definition I can come up with for "too earnest.")

I was not aware changing my opinion was a bad thing. Why wouldn't a townie change his/her opinion to match the situation? If I stuck to my same town/scum reads through the whole game, I might have a very hard time finding the scum if I were wrong.

I don't claim to be inexperienced, though I do have my moments certainly. :P

[Melmond]

Almost caught up, will be making a good post in the morning/early afternoon.

[Mirhawk]

I don't know, I can't really defend my opinion on this. It just feels somewhat artificial to me. I'm having difficulty in telling why I feel that way though.

[ICEninja]

I resisted posting anything more than this while drunk. Go me! I had stuff to comment on but drunk me doesn't always agree with sober me. I doubt I'll move my vote but there are things worth discussing.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand the bodyguard thing, though. Why is that a bad claim for scum? Ice actually argued it would be a safe claim to make and I agreed, mind elaborating on that point?

if there's another PR claim, he dies before they do or else he is lynched, no exceptions
it also implies that town has a lot of power elsewhere, and it leans against a mafia roleblocker, so "I protected him and nothing happened" is an excuse that won't fly at all ever
so, if scum, he won't live long

Why is absta scum?

wait on this, waiting for absta to crush my doubts before pursuing this further.