Newbie 1310: A WILD CHARIZARD APPEARED! - GAME OVER

[TraceyLyn11]

VOTE COUNT 2.2

[L-5] Dyrynify:

[L-5] Xegarus:

[L-5] em+p_dear:

[L-5] Om:

[L-4] kitiekatt: Nachomamma8

[L-5] CF Riot:

[L-5] Smashbard:

[L-4] Nachomamma8: Om

Not Voting:

6 (Dyrynify, Xegarus, em+p_dear, kitiekatt, CF Riot, Smashbard)

• With eight alive, it takes five to lynch.
  
• Day Two's deadline: January 18, 2013 CST or in (expired on 2013-01-18 01:10:00).
  
• V/LA: No one.

[Dyrynify]

Dyrnify:

So if you agree with Nacho that Empdear is scummy, how you do feel about Om's analysis that Nacho formerly thought Empdear was town Day 1? Have you always felt Empdear was scummy and it's just convenient that Nacho now agrees with you?

I don't know, it's odd me to that you say Nacho is virtually unreadable, but in the same breath say he's clear town.

I realize that it's very unlikely that you are scum at this point, I'm just trying to understand how you are getting to your conclusions.

Well, to be frank, I don't think there is much there. Nacho only made two posts mentioning em as town, and they amount to a gut read. In the intervening time, em has continued posting nothing of value. And that is what lead to my read, frankly. She was not on my radar at all, because of her lurking. Reading back, the lurking stood out.

And Nacho is hard to read, but what I do get is all town. I can't find a single scummy post.

@Dry; Short is always beautiful. Why make long ass posts full of WIFOM when you can carry same message in short one liner's. Also, it avoids confusion from my part since English isn't even in my top 3 languages. Sorry if it bothers you :/
Btw, What do you think CF had to achieve by jumping on Doc's wagon? Not to mention; making all those risky moves like pressure voting Bard and refusing to give reason's for his vote on Doc, if he was a scum, what's the point of doing all that when he could have easily shipped on Doc's wagon from get go?

I did not realize english was not your first language. You use it quite well.

But honestly, I don't know yet. There are possibilities, but I have nothing solid.

[Nachomamma8]

I do have another question though for anyone who can answer it. I'm thinking specifically about Nacho and CF, but other SE's and IC's as well: I think in newbie games we're giving sort of a deference to them, assuming (rightfully I think) that they know how to play, looking to them for advice, generally valuing their reads, etc. BUT, if they are killed, and you can't talk after you're dead, aren't we losing valuable guidance? Would we then just save our questions for the end game? Dead people can talk in the endgame, right?

I was tossing this around in my head last night. If an IC or SE gets killed (whether or not it's a scum or town kill), we lose that experience. Can someone who has been in a game with SE's or IC's before help me out? How did you handle this? Are there ways to provide info/guidance in game without them? Or does it all have to happen after end game if they get killed?

So, the most important thing that an IC/SE does for the game is get it started. Oftentimes, people don't really know how to transition from no information to actually finding scum, so the only actual job that an IC/SE has is getting things started and making sure that everyone pretty much knows what they're doing. The rest of the advice we provide is just icing on the cake; none of what we do is actuallyneeded. I'll also be around after the end of the game to give some feedback on everyone's play during the game (unless I forget, but just PM me or something and I'll return), so my death only means that any information that you would've had during the day will come a little later than you thought it would. I can also give more specific advice when the game is over and everyone is flipped.

My vote is on Nacho because in his #62 post he called Em+d town. But she is his 2nd best scum read on D2.
I'm really curious about what exactly changed since all Em+d has posted after that is #126 #216 and #236, which by no means looks scum motivated to me.
Being unless=/=scumtell.

Em+p seemed townish as far as early game reads go, but then after the game went on and I was able to flip one of my suspects and read other players better, the town read erroded plenty. You can't really dismiss people in this game after you get a townread on them, or else it only takes strong early play and the town is fucked.

Not to mention both Nacho and Em+d were null read for me when we started D2, which makes it even more suspicious when one of your null reads call other likely scum in very first post of the day.

What do you mean?

Like it or not, we will be screwed if this is true as he is our IC and to hard to read as player for most of us, I just wanted to get more clarity on where his motive stands before it's too late for it by putting vote on him. But looking at how he completely ignored it I'm now even more confused

Then ask me my motive instead of just putting a vote on me. I usually ignore votes without much substance behind them unless I'm feeling a hell of a lot more pressure; putting you into the awkward position of having to deal with me blowing you off gives me a stronger read on you than playing along would.

What has changed in the fact that you thought Empdear was one of your top town reads to make him a possible scum suspect? Was his alignment riding on Doctors flip in some way to you?

It was an early read that didn't really have anything strengthening it afterwards. His alignment was riding on Doc's flip in the sense that Doc can no longer be factored into any of my scumteam choices, but not in any way other than that.

[Nachomamma8]

My biggest problem with kitiekatt is her passive nature. That in and of itself isn't exactly scummy, but the fact that she doesn't make any significant pushes and the fact that she doesn't actually seem to be searching for scum makes it suspicious. Her only significant suspect for all of D1 was Xegar, but reading her ISO without context doesn't really show her pushing it any after her vote. Her original vote on him was because of him witholding his reasons for voting (she also states it was because of the roleclaim, but considering she didn't put the vote on him when he initially did it, I'm assuming that the witholding of the reasons was a stronger point for her), but when Xegar explained his reasons, she didn't explain why she still had her vote on him until I asked her about it, and the explanation that she gave me sounded more like she was justifying why her vote was still on Xegar and not trying to explain why she still found him scum even though her initial reasons became invalid. There's also her suspicion of CF, which has earned a lot of lip service from her but no actual votes or significant pushes. She's asked him a lot of questions and called him her second strongest scumreads yesterday, but no mention of him when I asked for her scumreads today. So right now, it seems like she's afraid to make a push on CF because he's an experienced player, but doesn't really know what else to attack, which leaves her in this awkward position as scum.

Em+p_dear read town to me initially for the transparent thought process in #55. I liked the paranoia over a nightkill, which scum usually don't think to fake early. Lately, I haven't liked her lack of strong reads. Generally, when people take a long time to form a read, it means that they are just a cautious player. But when they form a read, they usually don't budge on those reads for a really long time. However, that's not what we saw with the Dyr read. He was her only "100% town read" of the game, which was also the only read she's made with any strength. Today, he's become her strongest scum read, and while it isn't exactly a strong scum read, it's the a pretty big change from strongest town to strongest scum, and it doesn't exactly have a whole lot of explanation behind it. It also has the problem of giving em+p a lot of leniency in deciding who she wants to wagon while scum, which is something town rarely worry about but scum often do.

[CF Riot]

I don't know who I want to vote today. Someone win me over.

[Nachomamma8]

WHAT DO YOU THINK I WAS JUST DOING

[CF Riot]

But it wasn't in caps.

[Nachomamma8]

My biggest problem with kitiekatt is her passive nature. That in and of itself isn't exactly scummy, but the fact that she doesn't make any significant pushes and the fact that she doesn't actually seem to be searching for scum makes it suspicious. Her only significant suspect for all of D1 was Xegar, but reading her ISO without context doesn't really show her pushing it any after her vote. Her original vote on him was because of him witholding his reasons for voting (she also states it was because of the roleclaim, but considering she didn't put the vote on him when he initially did it, I'm assuming that the witholding of the reasons was a stronger point for her), but when Xegar explained his reasons, she didn't explain why she still had her vote on him until I asked her about it, and the explanation that she gave me sounded more like she was justifying why her vote was still on Xegar and not trying to explain why she still found him scum even though her initial reasons became invalid. There's also her suspicion of CF, which has earned a lot of lip service from her but no actual votes or significant pushes. She's asked him a lot of questions and called him her second strongest scumreads yesterday, but no mention of him when I asked for her scumreads today. So right now, it seems like she's afraid to make a push on CF because he's an experienced player, but doesn't really know what else to attack, which leaves her in this awkward position as scum.

Em+p_dear read town to me initially for the transparent thought process in #55. I liked the paranoia over a nightkill, which scum usually don't think to fake early. Lately, I haven't liked her lack of strong reads. Generally, when people take a long time to form a read, it means that they are just a cautious player. But when they form a read, they usually don't budge on those reads for a really long time. However, that's not what we saw with the Dyr read. He was her only "100% town read" of the game, which was also the only read she's made with any strength. Today, he's become her strongest scum read, and while it isn't exactly a strong scum read, it's the a pretty big change from strongest town to strongest scum, and it doesn't exactly have a whole lot of explanation behind it. It also has the problem of giving em+p a lot of leniency in deciding who she wants to wagon while scum, which is something town rarely worry about but scum often do.

MY BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH KITIEKATT IS HER PASSIVE NATURE. THAT IN AND OF ITSELF ISN'T EXACTLY SCUMMY, BUT THE FACT THAT SHE DOESN'T MAKE ANY SIGNIFICANT PUSHES AND THE FACT THAT SHE DOESN'T ACTUALLY SEEM TO BE SEARCHING FOR SCUM MAKES IT SUSPICIOUS. HER ONLYSIGNIFICANT SUSPECT FOR ALL OF D1 WAS XEGAR, BUT READING HER ISO WITHOUT CONTEXT DOESN'T REALLY SHOW HER PUSHING IT ANY AFTER HER VOTE. HER ORIGINAL VOTE ON HIM WAS BECAUSE OF HIM WITHOLDING HIS REASONS FOR VOTING (SHE ALSO STATES IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE ROLECLAIM, BUT CONSIDERING SHE DIDN'T PUT THE VOTE ON HIM WHEN HE INITIALLY DID IT, I'M ASSUMING THAT THE WITHOLDING OF THE REASONS WAS A STRONGER POINT FOR HER), BUT WHEN XEGAR EXPLAINED HIS REASONS, SHE DIDN'T EXPLAIN WHY SHE HAD HER VOTE ON HIM UNTIL I ASKED HER ABOUT IT, AND THE EXPLANATION THAT SHE GAVE ME SOUNDED MORE LIKE SHE WAS JUSTIFYING WHY HER VOTE WAS STILL ON XEGAR AND NOT TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY SHE STILL FOUND HIM SCUM EVEN THOUGH HER INITIAL REASONS BECAME INVALID. THERE'S ALSO HER SUSPICION OF CF, WHICH HAS EARNED A LOT OF LIP SERVICE FROM HER BUT NO ACTUAL VOTES OR SIGNIFICANT PUSHES. SHE'S ASKED HIM A LOT OF QUESTIONS AND CALLED HIM HER SECOND STRONGEST SCUMREAD YESTERDAY, BUT NO MENTION WHEN I ASKED FOR HER SCUMREADS TODAY. SO RIGHT NOW, IT SEEMS LIKE SHE'S AFRAID TO MAKE A PUSH ON CF BECAUSE HE'S AN EXPERIENCED PLAYR, BUT DOESN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT ELSE TO ATTACK, WHICH LEAVES HER IN THIS AWKWARD POSITION AS SCUM.

[em+p_dear]

Okay then, D2 reads thus far:

CF Riot: somewhat town...just a gut read no more could change-will do some rereading
Dyrynify: yeah, biggest scum read so far
kitiekatt: will do some re-reading, but not a current suspect
Nachomamma8: Don't ask me, that guy's harder to read then Natsume Soseki.
Om: Town. Couldn't form much of an opinion due to post length on day one, but today's posts are town enough to convince me.
Smashbard: Town. Suspects/inquires from just about everyone- witch-hunter attitude.
Xegarus: I'm feeling town. The more I read the day one posts the less scummy and more just inexperienced town they seem (I know that feel). Plus, when I think of the night kill, he's the only one that comes to mind that a protective role would have known the mafia would target and tried to save.

[kitiekatt]

So, the most important thing that an IC/SE does for the game is get it started. Oftentimes, people don't really know how to transition from no information to actually finding scum, so the only actual job that an IC/SE has is getting things started and making sure that everyone pretty much knows what they're doing. The rest of the advice we provide is just icing on the cake; none of what we do is actuallyneeded. I'll also be around after the end of the game to give some feedback on everyone's play during the game (unless I forget, but just PM me or something and I'll return), so my death only means that any information that you would've had during the day will come a little later than you thought it would. I can also give more specific advice when the game is over and everyone is flipped.

Em+p seemed townish as far as early game reads go, but then after the game went on and I was able to flip one of my suspects and read other players better, the town read erroded plenty. You can't really dismiss people in this game after you get a townread on them, or else it only takes strong early play and the town is fucked.

What does it mean to say you flipped one of your suspects? I understand the word 'flip' when we learn for sure that someone was town (like Doc), but what does it mean when you or someone flips? Is that just saying someone is giving more of a town vibe now than a scum vibe or vice-versa? Or is it involving some sort of concrete information?

My biggest problem with kitiekatt is her passive nature. That in and of itself isn't exactly scummy, but the fact that she doesn't make any significant pushes and the fact that she doesn't actually seem to be searching for scum makes it suspicious. Her only significant suspect for all of D1 was Xegar, but reading her ISO without context doesn't really show her pushing it any after her vote. Her original vote on him was because of him witholding his reasons for voting (she also states it was because of the roleclaim, but considering she didn't put the vote on him when he initially did it, I'm assuming that the witholding of the reasons was a stronger point for her), but when Xegar explained his reasons, she didn't explain why she still had her vote on him until I asked her about it, and the explanation that she gave me sounded more like she was justifying why her vote was still on Xegar and not trying to explain why she still found him scum even though her initial reasons became invalid. There's also her suspicion of CF, which has earned a lot of lip service from her but no actual votes or significant pushes. She's asked him a lot of questions and called him her second strongest scumreads yesterday, but no mention of him when I asked for her scumreads today. So right now, it seems like she's afraid to make a push on CF because he's an experienced player, but doesn't really know what else to attack, which leaves her in this awkward position as scum.

So here's my deal. To me, I think a vote is a big deal. It makes me seem passive because I'm not gonna vote like a crazy person all over the place. I'm skeptical and it does take me a hell of a long time to make a decision. This is in all of life as well as in this forum. I'm gonna weigh everything and try to figure things out. Plus, we've seen, it takes me a bit longer to digest everything. I'll do reads for D2 to be more aggressive about it, but some of them are just gut reads.

Also, I didn't call CF my second strongest scum read on day one, that was Doc, which I was completely wrong about. I didn't have any scum read on CF until today. And I mentioned CF today, he came up in my statements of suspicious behavior. Here's the convo from D1:

Thanks CF!

What's your take on TheDoctor wagon?

I seriously had no idea why it was going on until Nacho I think it was clarified that it was because, from what I gathered, he was talking less about game stuff and had just answered the random q's. It struck me as odd for CF to jump on right away, but he had his reasons, and then when Nacho came on I just assumed Brad (haha, loving it!) felt more comfortable coming in after an IC weighed in on it. I still don't really get a scum read off of Doc, I did an unvote (albeit not in the same post) and was worried myself about annoying the mod....I also initially had some real misgivings with posting things just for the sake of sharing my opinion, and didn't post as much as I would have liked in the first few pages cause I didn't have this fantastic original thought or question. So I guess it seems less scummy to me. I'm not ruling him out I just didn't jump on the wagon.

Is he in your top 2 suspects?

Is he in your top 2 suspects?

Yeah, it's Xegar and then him (but Xegar is pretty scummy). I'm not seeing the scum in Smash.

I was talking about the Doc wagon when you asked me if "he" was in my top 2 suspects so I thought you were talking about Doc. Doc was my second suspect in D1, which I mentioned how that didn't go so well at the beginning of today. I briefly mentioned CF but wasn't scum reading him, just pointing out it was odd.

Reads:

Smash: Town. Good questions. I may be giving deference cause I see him as an experienced player.
Om: Town, did well to persuade me against Xegar, working hard to hunt, asking q's.
Xegar: Town, but I would like to hear from him today. Is he off V/LA?
Nacho: Town, asking lots of probing questions, while I am under his radar I feel like he's doing a good job working on clarification, not just baseless accusations.
Dyr: Town. I don't think he was really asking for a role claim after Night 1, just positing on the existence of a jail keeper or doc.
Em: Kinda scum. I can't blame her much for not posting at the beginning, but still some major lurking at the end of day one/twilight and beginning of Day 2. Less scum now that she's answering questions.
CF: Scum. At this point he hasn't even answered my questions, but still posts to be witty.

And I'll go for it if that will make him say something other than sitting back and waiting to be convinced. VOTE: CF Riot

[CF Riot]

I currently have no idea what questions I'm supposed to be answering for you. I'm assuming you asked me questions because you were suspicious of me though. So what about me made you suspicious before "ignoring" your questions?

[CF Riot]

@CF: Under this logic, you would never ever explain your vote, assuming you're voting for people you think are scum (which you would be). Is this really what you are saying?

Surely you don't just mean this. I feel like this question is nonsense but I'll humor you. If I think someone is behaving scummy, depending on the situation sometimes I bring up what exactly I find scummy about them then advocate others to vote them. Other times, I will simply announce they're a scumread and vote without stating reasons. There are lots of reasons for this, a few being I believe the reasons to be obvious or I want to see how others react to the vote and find out if they understand what is scummy about the person without me spelling it out.

If I do happen to withhold my reason for a vote and then the scum target asks me about it, I feel no obligation to explain it to them because I don't need to convince scum they're scummy. They'll never vote themselves. However if another player asks and I feel they're town, then depending on the circumstances I'll explain my read to that person to try and gain their support on the wagon.

Doc was going down in flames and I knew it, so I didn't think it was necessary to post my read. It was more valuable to me to see who else wanted on without convincing and what reason they would give for doing it.

[Nachomamma8]

If I do happen to withhold my reason for a vote and then the scum target asks me about it, I feel no obligation to explain it to them because I don't need to convince scum they're scummy. They'll never vote themselves. However if another player asks and I feel they're town, then depending on the circumstances I'll explain my read to that person to try and gain their support on the wagon.

i posted an all caps case just for you and you are ignoring it
stop ignoring it

[Om]

Nacho wrote

:Em+p seemed townish as far as early game reads go, but then after the game went on and I was able to flip one of my suspects and read other players better, the town read erroded plenty. You can't really dismiss people in this game after you get a townread on them, or else it only takes strong early play and the town is fucked.

True, but my worry was more towards ''why'' Em+p jumped forward for you more then others due to Doc's flip. She wasn't on either wagon, probably didn't even read the thread on D1 considering the difference in magnitude of substance in her posts on D2(today, which is still less and wishy-washy) compared to D1.

Nacho wrote:

What do you mean?

In the beginning of the D2; both you and Em+d were null read for me since I'm not really able to read you properly even though I went trough your scum and town games and she hadn't really posted anything worth looking till that point. You coming out and declaring her your 2nd best scum read on very first post didn't set well with me at that moment. Hence, you looked like scum who was going for easy lynch options from start of the day.
Just to add little to it; I read trough one of your games where ''N'' did your vote/post analysis with both possible alignments in which your town meta seemed to have lot more votes/post then your scum one. Although, I do know that the argument was dismissed later, I'm not really able to shake off the feeling that you might indeed be the scum considering you never moved your vote from Doc on D1.

Nacho wrote

:Then ask me my motive instead of just putting a vote on me. I usually ignore votes without much substance behind them unless I'm feeling a hell of a lot more pressure; putting you into the awkward position of having to deal with me blowing you off gives me a stronger read on you than playing along would.

I did ask that first in my post #247, I only voted when you didn't reply to it.

I find it too convenient that both the scums in this game are in the form of Kittie and Em according to your first post of the day. One of them, maybe, but I really don't see Kittie+Em team functioning. Also, it might not be odd to have D1 mislynch wagon without scum on it, but really, what are the chances of it happening in this game?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@kitiekatt;

I'll ask you same question I asked Dry when he read CF as scum, so I would appreciate if you can reply to it in your best opinion.

What do you think CF had to achieve by jumping on Doc's wagon? Not to mention; making all those risky moves like pressure voting Bard and refusing to give reason's for his vote on Doc, if he was a scum, what's the point of doing all that when he could have easily shipped on Doc's wagon from get go?

There you go.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Em+d wrote:

Plus, when I think of the night kill, he's the only one that comes to mind that a protective role would have known the mafia would target and tried to save.

Why do you think that?

[Xegarus]

Off V/LA now but got work so cant really post anything seriously and need to read everything.
Playing catch up is gonna be like doing homework, isn't it. -_-

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma8: Don't ask me, that guy's harder to read then Natsume Soseki.

You don't even have anything to say about me pushing you as my second suspect?

What does it mean to say you flipped one of your suspects? I understand the word 'flip' when we learn for sure that someone was town (like Doc), but what does it mean when you or someone flips? Is that just saying someone is giving more of a town vibe now than a scum vibe or vice-versa? Or is it involving some sort of concrete information?

It means that I now know the alignment of someone who was previously a suspect (doc), which forces me to reanalyze former reads.

So here's my deal. To me, I think a vote is a big deal. It makes me seem passive because I'm not gonna vote like a crazy person all over the place. I'm skeptical and it does take me a hell of a long time to make a decision. This is in all of life as well as in this forum. I'm gonna weigh everything and try to figure things out. Plus, we've seen, it takes me a bit longer to digest everything. I'll do reads for D2 to be more aggressive about it, but some of them are just gut reads.

Okay. So why have you chosen this moment to vote him?

True, but my worry was more towards ''why'' Em+p jumped forward for you more then others due to Doc's flip. She wasn't on either wagon, probably didn't even read the thread on D1 considering the difference in magnitude of substance in her posts on D2(today, which is still less and wishy-washy) compared to D1.

It's the nothing that brings em+p forward to me. It's occasionally a natural scum response to look at the town yelling at each other and not really want to get involved; to let them eat themselves alive, essentially. I doubt that em+p completely avoided reading yesterday, but she didn't really have any big pushes yesterday, so she's a big suspect of mine.

Hence, you looked like scum who was going for easy lynch options from start of the day.

Sometimes I like putting out suspects on the first post of the day because I like to establish where I stand. I'm an aggressive player, and coming right out at the start of the day while singling out two specific players as targets tell the townie they have to step it up, and it intimidates the scum because they know that I will attack them today, and they will be forced to defend themselves. For what it's worth, though, I don't really view kitiekatt and em+p as a valid scumteam choice; I'd rather wait until revealing thoughts until a later date because kitiekatt's next post will matter a lot as far as who I attack next, and I don't want to reveal my cards to early and tell her who she should be distancing from/forging connections with.

[Nachomamma8]

I did ask that first in my post #247, I only voted when you didn't reply to it.

I find it too convenient that both the scums in this game are in the form of Kittie and Em according to your first post of the day. One of them, maybe, but I really don't see Kittie+Em team functioning. Also, it might not be odd to have D1 mislynch wagon without scum on it, but really, what are the chances of it happening in this game?

Mmm, I forgot about that. I was going to do reading later, so a significant question such as that was going to be answered whenever I got around to it. And yes, I agree with your assertion. I didn't say that I thought kittie+Em was the scumteam, though.

[TraceyLyn11]

Xegarus has requested a replacement. Seaching...

[mykonian]

I just replaced in, but I'm not sure if Tracey has already realized.

Nacho was wrong about my slot.

Uhm, I think I'll wait for Tracey to see this and send me that pm. Could take a while... she's busy with other stuff

[mykonian]

I think she might have realized now.

[Nachomamma8]

I just replaced in, but I'm not sure if Tracey has already realized.

Nacho was wrong about my slot.

Uhm, I think I'll wait for Tracey to see this and send me that pm. Could take a while... she's busy with other stuff

your slot was scum...?

[mykonian]

odds say you are wrong about me. And nice playing with you again!

[mykonian]

happy newyear from the Netherlands btw!

[mykonian]

BE FEWWY FEWWY QUIET.

I'M HUNTING TWACEY'S

[TraceyLyn11]

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE IF I WAS INFORMED THAT YOU ACTUALLY WERE REPLACING IN. So yeah, Myko replaces Xegarus. Don't welcome him! Make him feel like an outcast!