Newbie 1961 | Trees II | Over

[tictac]

Effort isn't AI. Whether someone is extremely inactive, or going the extra mile putting in crazy effort, you'll find both town and scum everywhere throughout that spectrum.

Well, depends on the person somewhat, but basically agree here.
Also I think jan overestimates the effort involved in "i know this persons townplay from before" somewhat.

However ya currently voting CJ for inctivity..
Or are ya saying ya think refusal to answer questions is scum indic?
This question mostly rhetorical, but ya can answer if ya like

My issue with meta is that it is easily manipulated; what was once AI indicative of a player, once known in the meta mainstream, can then be used as a tactic for that player to disguise themselves.

u know, people keep saying this like it's obviously true.
No one actually has the ability to change their past at will.
Sure, people can play to their town-meta as scum.
Who in their right mind plays to their scum-meta as town?

The same can be said for when meta is used against a player, as it is easy to make a meta argument that can fit a given narrative.

Is it? I suppose people could be selective on what meta to present

if

the person whose meta is in question has varied games to choose from. Also that is super-easy argument to defend from by saying "you are cherry-picking my meta"

Meta is argued over so often and contradicted; it has its merits to be sure, but it should never be the entire basis for a push.

I'm not pushing Jam because of meta(anymore).
I am pushing him because I think he lied.

also:
- not expressing things out of fear of being attacked is more of a scum-trait than town-trait.
- his only non-zen player-related thought happening to be about january, who I asked him about, seems like a very odd coincidence to originate from a townie analyzing a game. It's much easier explained by scum going:"tictac asked me about jan, better make something up"

[tictac]

pagetop

[tictac]

I've received my prod and still can't respond to it for to it for the next 26 hours, I quite literally don't have time to contribute until then
If you feel the need to replace me, you can but I will get back to this game tomorrow evening, cross my heart and hope to die.

I nullread this post, therefore it's game-relevant and counts as a prod

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.10

---

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Jamelia

(3): FancyPants, tictac, january

ceejayvinoya

(2): Zenith, GeorgeBailey

Zenith

(1): Jamelia

january

(1): Vorkuta

Not Voting

(2): Suspicious, ceejayvinoya

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-10-26 08:30:00).

Mod notes:

FancyPants is still V/LA. As per rule 13, they'll be replaced if they go five days without producing game advancing content. They'll get the other half of their prod before that happens.[/area]

[Jamelia]

Effort isn't AI. Whether someone is extremely inactive, or going the extra mile putting in crazy effort, you'll find both town and scum everywhere throughout that spectrum.

Well, depends on the person somewhat, but basically agree here.
Also I think jan overestimates the effort involved in "i know this persons townplay from before" somewhat.

However ya currently voting CJ for inctivity..
Or are ya saying ya think refusal to answer questions is scum indic?
This question mostly rhetorical, but ya can answer if ya like

My issue with meta is that it is easily manipulated; what was once AI indicative of a player, once known in the meta mainstream, can then be used as a tactic for that player to disguise themselves.

u know, people keep saying this like it's obviously true.
No one actually has the ability to change their past at will.
Sure, people can play to their town-meta as scum.
Who in their right mind plays to their scum-meta as town?

The same can be said for when meta is used against a player, as it is easy to make a meta argument that can fit a given narrative.

Is it? I suppose people could be selective on what meta to present

if

the person whose meta is in question has varied games to choose from. Also that is super-easy argument to defend from by saying "you are cherry-picking my meta"

Meta is argued over so often and contradicted; it has its merits to be sure, but it should never be the entire basis for a push.

I'm not pushing Jam because of meta(anymore).
I am pushing him because I think he lied.

also:
- not expressing things out of fear of being attacked is more of a scum-trait than town-trait.
- his only non-zen player-related thought happening to be about january, who I asked him about, seems like a very odd coincidence to originate from a townie analyzing a game. It's much easier explained by scum going:"tictac asked me about jan, better make something up"

Then lynch me. I can’t prove whether I lied or not. That’s your choice to continue a lynch that makes no sense beyond a meta push and thinking I lied about seeing if someone was on L-1 when I came online.

[Zenith]

However ya currently voting CJ for inctivity..
Or are ya saying ya think refusal to answer questions is scum indic?
This question mostly rhetorical, but ya can answer if ya like

Voting CJ because I want to.

As for refusing to answer questions, I suppose it would depend on the person and the questions, but in general I view it like deciding to name yourself something like Suspicious. It's likely going to draw some negative attention.

I don't see a clear town or scum motivation for intentionally drawing negative attention to oneself, so I don't view it as AI. Trying to read too deeply into such motivation from the outside, eventually WIFOM or lack of info can block the way. Peering too deeply into a WIFOM situation tends to short circuit my mind, which is why I typically only glance at such situations, and is part of why I asked you about Jamelia earlier.

[tictac]

Then lynch me.

I mean, that's what I'm trying to do.
Why take it for granted that I will succeed?
Why do ya have no opinion on me yet treat me like I'm guaranteed town?
Why do ya have no opinion on fancy for that matter?
Why do ya only respond to my posts? january tried talking to ya in a much more non-confrontational manner, and I thought ya might respond to that better than to me, but no.
If ya town it's still possible to fight this, even without providing guaranteed proof.
I do need something other than restating old opinions to even possibly change my mind here.
If ya town I recommend doing some analysis, and then talking about it.
Demonstrating town thought process requires first having that thought process.

[january]

There's a difference between accepting a potential incorrect route vs. being okay with a mislynch, which #268 comes across as. (snip)
My point being that if you find it likely Jam is town here to a decent degree, and you have demonstrated you're comfortable with a mislynch, why not then flip someone who has also had interactions/could have info with their flip?

i think i’m just convinced jamelia is scum and trying to justify the lynch to myself tbh. (snip) but the reason i want to vote jamelia isn’t that they might flip town, it’s that i think they’re scum. BUT if they flip town i’ll be ok

not sure how you're interpreting this as me thinking that jamelia is town... of all the players in this table right now, I think that jamelia is the most likely to flip scum, therefore i want to vote them

re: zenith - first, the reason I'm not voting zenith is that I do not scumread them as much as I do jamelia
second, I did townread zenith earlier. it was a slightly unorthodox read, since i basically townread him for acting way too obviously scummy. I really don't think your interaction with zenith is as alignment indicative as you think, mostly reads to me as two people being annoyed with each other. if anything, i scumread you more for the zenith-suspicious interaction.

so no, i do not scumread zenith. i do scumread jamelia. therefore, i vote jamelia

[Vorkuta]

Spoiler: "online times"

not a fan but valid strategy

vork also basically zero impact.

you guys are doing all the heavy lifting for me

So why does scum!tic try to push a lynch away from town!Zen?

Come on- this isn't your first rodeo here
-planned lynchbait for later
-town points for eventual/inevitable flip
-wifom
-pocketing reasons
-idk I'm not the scum!mastermind here

why is GB town?

gut/tone- his walls feel the most genuine in terms of "getting to the bottom of things" while others have more of a "defensive/agenda-driven" approach
also he ticked off things in my "things to look for in town" checklists

is the scumread on me something other than u disagree w me on what info is relevant?

meh
it's one of those things that I can't point out in words because you'll have a valid and reasonable response for any point I might come up with, and yet at the end of the day I'll still think that your approach is scummy.
I just don't like the manner in which you're "powertowning" and that's all

[Jamelia]

Then lynch me.

I mean, that's what I'm trying to do.
Why take it for granted that I will succeed?
Why do ya have no opinion on me yet treat me like I'm guaranteed town?
Why do ya have no opinion on fancy for that matter?
Why do ya only respond to my posts? january tried talking to ya in a much more non-confrontational manner, and I thought ya might respond to that better than to me, but no.
If ya town it's still possible to fight this, even without providing guaranteed proof.
I do need something other than restating old opinions to even possibly change my mind here.
If ya town I recommend doing some analysis, and then talking about it.
Demonstrating town thought process requires first having that thought process.

Honestly I’m so frustrated with your reasoning about why I’m scum that I’d honestly feel more satisfied being lynched and flipping green, with you with an egg on your face than me trying to beg and please about why I’m town.

If you think my lynch is helpful, then go for it. If I’m lynched on D1 or D4, as long as town wins I win. You’ll just be sparing me having to deal with your pure analysis that is flawed, and you know it.

[Zenith]

Why are you so frustrated that you'd rather be lynched?

Rule 23: "Play to win - this particular game, not some future one, and keep it fun!"

[january]

#284 reads to me as frustration with being meta tunneled by tictac - and honestly i agree it’s a very bad reasoning to fully base a lynch on. at best it’s NAI (just frustration) but it kinda leans to me as mafia frustrated at being scumread for some dumb reason

might be my confirmation bias or something, don’t feel like it was at all towny though

[Plotinus]

ceejayvinoya hasn't responded to their prod and is being replaced. If they return before a replacement is found they can stay.

[Plotinus]

FancyPants¹ has received the other half of their prod. They have (expired on 2019-10-24 08:20:00) to post game advancing content before I start looking for a replacement.

[Suspicious]

#284 reads to me as frustration with being meta tunneled by tictac - and honestly i agree it’s a very bad reasoning to fully base a lynch on. at best it’s NAI (just frustration) but it kinda leans to me as mafia frustrated at being scumread for some dumb reason

might be my confirmation bias or something, don’t feel like it was at all towny though

I feel the exact opposite; I don't have any meta on Jam, but I don't think scum crumbles this easily. No defense, straight to a half-hearted AtE; it's lackluster play and feels more like a townie feeling they've been dealt an injustice.

[tictac]

If you're comfortable possibly flipping a town, why not flip Zenith?

You shouldn't be okay with allowing a potential mislynch

.

Wanna highlight this because possible info POW.
Everyone is a possible mislynch from town-pow.
day1 associative tho.

you guys are doing all the heavy lifting for me

But ya think I'm scum. Is wise to let scums steer the wheel? Come on now.

this isn't your first rodeo here

lol. I was gonna say this if ya said "ye, it's a disagree read"
also, fair. I was mostly having fun there.
I marple-tr yer read on me, fyi.


@Jam
"Like he seems content to just sit there being the default lynch, not looking town at all"
^this is something I said about Chemist during yer first game. It applies to your play here.
I don't think town-you says I have egg on my face for scumreading ya.
I think town ya says 'sorry' for putting in exactly zero effort.
Because I believe the genuine-you is a cool dude.
also: how in tf do ya not have a read on me if ya think I'm knowingly pushing a crapcase?

[Suspicious]

You either misunderstood me or picked out what suited you best. My point was never that a mislynch wasn't a possibility, but rather the aim of a lynch should be for reasonable certainty as opposed to a highly-possible mislynch.

Mafia is as numbers game to me; a mislynch is always possible, especially D1, but a mislynch should not be accepted outright
It's a poor game outlook and allows scum to skirt by easily while holding the numerical advantage.

[tictac]

Mafia is as numbers game to me; a mislynch is always possible, especially D1, but a mislynch should not be accepted outright

Like, I don't see none outright accepting a mislynch is gonna happen. Except Jam if hes town.

Point of looking for pow slips is to look for things people did not mean to say, but did.
It's not a huge point tho, so ya can relax.

[tictac]

I don't think town-you says I have egg on my face for scumreading ya.
I think town ya says 'sorry' for putting in exactly zero effort.
Because I believe the genuine-you is a cool dude.

Like, if I'm wrong about ya, I'm wrong because I assume that ya care enough about this game to look at it when ya online anyways.
I don't at all get how yer response to that as town could be 'tictac is being unfair and deserves to be embarassed'

[FancyPants]

@Everyone, I've asked to replaced. When I signed on I thought I'd be able to make time, but I've been proven wrong.

[Plotinus]

FancyPants has requested replacement. Searching...

[Plotinus]

Skitter30 replaces ceejayvinoya! Please welcome her!

[skitter30]

Hey all, i'll catch up after work today

@plot i have regular vla on friday and saturday

[january]

welcome welcome

don’t really think anything ceejay has done is particularly scummy and i’d like to at least give skitter a chance to play - can we not vote her today pls

[Plotinus]

DrDolittle replaces FancyPants! Please welcome them!