In post 194, Sujimichi wrote:Thank you. Aside from the slot I replaced, I was not able to see anything; however, I will re-read Hectic's post with a focus on removing his jest from his points.
your repeated thanks is making it hard to want to fight you... stop that.
I really struggle to see the motivation behind things like this. Saying "Stop doing X, X makes me not want to lynch/scumread you" comes off to me as always two-timing. It's at once facetiously giving advice to the speaker's scumread, while also imploring that the thing they're doing is at least helping their case, if not an outright towntell to the speaker. If it's a towntell you want to wait and see it develop more fully on its own, without intervening. If they're still a scumread telling them to stop towntelling/making them doubt it is absurd. "Not as eager to lynch" isn't quite equivalent to towntelling, but you get the gist.
Bluntly, to me statements like this come off as aiming to subversively ingratiate yourself with the subject.
In post 108, Nachomamma8 wrote:Artist who formerly was not Chara, a towncore is nothing if not tested. Games with limited flips are decidedly anti-town. Please don't get lured to the "we find town and we win! easy game!" siren call.
while i prefer townhunting, i don't believe that makes this "easy". you do make a good point i hadn't fully considered, in that only sparing our supposed friends leaves the possibility that they are not so loyal as they appear, with no way of knowing the truth.
After being gungho for townhunting, Chara gets reined in by the revelation that...the townreads might be wrong. No flips does indeed complicate things, but this is so bizarre to not even think about. Chara had to have done at least some thinking given that they leaped to classifying it as a townhunting setup. On the surface this is seems slightly scummy, more just bizarre, but I feel like there's more in my gut that I can't quite get to.
Finally, more abstractly, Chara's way of interacting with the posting gimmicks bothers me. The others use their gimmicks to push game-related points. Some people have complained about them, others are indifferent. Chara in general has been pretty eager to roll with them-commenting a lot on the skeletons, the flowers, Hectic misspelling something in one of the pictures, etc.-but significantly less about the content. #193, well after they've been interacting with Chara all game, is the first time it notes that there is plenty of content from Hectic...which is really surprising for someone who regularly read Hectic's posts and interacted with them.
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:24 pm
by Amrun
Hoo boy.
Replica, are you an alt?
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:25 pm
by popsofctown
<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
3>3>3>3>3>3>3>3>3>3>
Everyone was increasingly fascinated by Nachomamma8's and Hectic's antics. Amrun was among those very impressed by the two. When Nachomamma8 adorned Hectic with his novel headgear, Amrun clapped, making a clomping noise with her high heels.
"Bravo, bravo!" The majority of the monsters joined her in clapping, which helped in making the adulation sound like applause rather than swing dancing.
Amrun realized it was quieter to her left than to her right, and saw that Asriel Dreemurr was not clapping.
"Why don't you like this, Asriel? Is it the case that you can't handle a commoner being the center of attention? I'm thinking it looks like the game we play might be arts and crafts. And if you aren't mature enough to appreciate others' creations, we won't let you play. Aren't you supposed to be a prince?"
Amrun tiptoed her hindlegs with her last words, causing her head to tilt downwards and her glasses to inch down her nose, giving her a subtly condescending look. Although Asriel Dreemurr was royalty, Amrun was definitely one to decide for herself who truly merited admiration.
"No, it's not that.." he replied, speaking slowly. Nachomamma8 had a very slapstick and carefree style, and Asriel was more formal and mild-mannered by disposition and upbringing. How could he explain that? Asriel Dreemurr looked towards that house, wondering what his mother and father would recommend about this social situation, if they weren't cooking.
With eleven players alive, it takes six votes to make a decision. (expired on 2020-01-27 13:00:00)
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:26 pm
by Replica
I have more thoughts than those-I had townleans on Chemist, Sugimichi, and Hectic from what I remember on my skim-but I've written enough for the game at the moment and don't want to flood it at once. Digestibility is more important than what you say. I'll put a heal vote down pretty soon.
In post 274, Amrun wrote:Do you think nacho and hectic are scum together, replica?
No, but I'm not anywhere close to speculating on teammates and a million other qualifications that this question begs for.
Yes. Not to be intentionally abrasive, but this is the only post - other than linking back to this one - I will ever make in any game responding to or acknowledging my
alt
replica status. Sorry in advance to all, I get that can be frustrating.
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:02 pm
by Hectic
In post 273, Replica wrote:Poor meta work by town is so common as to be null,
My master was a Town Jailkeeper in that game you've linked there. You really ARE an idiot, aren't you?
"Most Manipulative" despite being town.
so i can see why he'd come to that conclusion if he did a quick ISO of the mod.
replica pal, don't take the flower's words to heart.
y'know, for the record, i think you're right and Hectic would probably pull a gimmick as scum too.
here's his sole scum game if you're interested: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=81804
anyway, i want to know more about you pal.
what do ya think of Asriel's "awkward" posting so far?
or the detective's attack on alim in 258?
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:14 pm
by Amrun
In post 278, Replica wrote:I have more thoughts than those-I had townleans on Chemist, Sugimichi, and Hectic from what I remember on my skim-but I've written enough for the game at the moment and don't want to flood it at once. Digestibility is more important than what you say. I'll put a heal vote down pretty soon.
In post 274, Amrun wrote:Do you think nacho and hectic are scum together, replica?
No, but I'm not anywhere close to speculating on teammates and a million other qualifications that this question begs for.
What, pray tell, is the scum motivation for nacho to manipulate meta to call Hectic town?
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:07 pm
by Chara
the optimal mechanics walls.... here they come.
Bartholomew replica, this is something i really really don't want to argue all game, so i'll probably continue what i'm doing for now, until such time that i inevitably feel the need to argue for some punching. and believe me, the time shall come.
however: you have style, i'll give you that. even if you're being a big nerd about it.
@Chara: why aren’t YOU pressuring Asriel as well if you agree?
But I do too, and I did say earlier I feel Asriel is off.
I simply didn’t want to let up on Sujimichi but his more recent contributions have definitely been better.
Let’s consolidate and choo choo.
because i'm pressuring you!
at least, i wanted to, but if you're also having access issues (hope it all works out) i'm at a bit of a loss. in general wagons on players who are away for rl are... uninteresting at best, uninformative as far as reactions from the wagonee go at worst.
i do dislike how you didn't vote until i asked why you hadn't, but your feeling on wanting to stay on Sujimichi is pretty why i still had my finger on the button there, so i understand that.
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:24 pm
by Chara
275: me? two-timing? i'm the most honest child you could ever meet.
the way my conversation with Sujimichi went made me like them more. they were very matter of fact with their read on me, and i felt like i was being figured out some.
it feels either short-sighted or assumptive (is this a word? i'll make it one anyways) to say there are only two ways to approach someone you scumread, towntelling.
and more importantly... thanking me a couple of times didn't have much to do with the read getting better. that'd be pretty
bizarre
, wouldn't it?
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:45 pm
by Chara
In post 275, Replica wrote:#193, well after they've been interacting with Chara all game, is the first time it notes that there is plenty of content from Hectic...which is really surprising for someone who regularly read Hectic's posts and interacted with them.
now if we're getting into bizarre takes...
what is your point here? that it's strange i didn't say "that annoying dog has been contributing this whole time" earlier?
except that 192 happened because Sujimichi claimed nothing on the early pages was real content, to which i replied there was plenty. and i'm pretty sure i mentioned Hectic specifically as someone who's been 'doing things', so to speak, epecially considering we had discussions before 192 about how things were going with the gaggle of friendship-hopefuls that were gathered.
i don't really know how to word this... that it's both incorrect, but also a strange thing to focus on. who needs to be told Hectic is producing content?
...admittedly, Sujimichi. but who besides Sujimichi would need to be told? you can just read Hectic's posts.
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:29 pm
by Amrun
I am still here enough - I just wanted to make everyone aware if I did suddenly stop responding, that’s probably why.
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:54 pm
by alimdia
Looking at other people, theres only 3 days left on this day.
Pine
: Pine is basically get a free pass for D1 or am I being mistaken? Nobody is pressuring Pine for afking, other than Sherlock (for a few posts only) but they are pressuring Asriel for afking.
Sherlock
: As mentioned before, Sherlock had his vote on Pine for a while, I assume to pressure Pine.
Here are his non-fluff interactions with other players that aren't me. I'm interested to see the follow up on Sherlock's Sujimuchi-Nacho and Chemist query.
I am curious to hear the opinions of my fellow adventurers on the Chemist who is amongst us. I feel there is a decided lack of motivation in his interactions thus far. I would also like to kindly request that the good Nachomamma8 give more of his reasoning behind Sujimuchi being an agent of Moriarty if that is what his opinion is at this moment.
Just here for completeness, as there was not enough time for a reply yet:
My warmest thanks, Amrun. I must admit, I now recall having read that post, but even the world’s greatest detective is sometimes prone to a small lapse of memory. However, I wondered if you might perhaps expand on what this “nervous twitchiness” is in Asriel’s posts, perhaps going so far as to bless us with citations for the same. I patiently await your response.
Chemist
Lots of fluff posts at the start, which is fine. However, there is not much content either
Asking questions to people but still sitting on the fence. Does he think I'm scummy... does he think Sherlock is scummy... nobody knows. I currently find that suspicious because they ask a few questions, but don't have their own thoughts as much.
In post 228, Chemist1422 wrote:hectic, is that why you initially voted to fight Sherlock?
Mssrs. Nachomamma8, JTheophrastus, Chemist, and Hectic: could I entice you gentlemen with the prospect of lynching our companion Alimdia?
why these names out of the entire game?
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:59 pm
by alimdia
Sujimichi
While I believe this initial post seems to come from a town POV, a lot of his posts are centered around this, and has caused it to become a 'safe topic' for people to weigh in to look like they're doing something. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I wonder if the scum are simply lurking here and avoiding giving actual opinions. Town Read.
In post 156, Sujimichi wrote:Query: If there is one Friendly Neighbor in this setup and spared players cannot be night killed, would it not make sense for them to claim and be spared during Day 1 as a guaranteed Town Spare? This is an open setup, so if there is no counterclaim then they are telling the truth and if there is a counterclaim we forgo Spare for Fight and are guaranteed a scum lynch no later than D2?
In post 214, alimdia wrote:Will be looking at other stuff later, Sujimichi, what do you think about Sherlock?
With the understanding that he is posting in a particular style that I originally did not care for, I think that he is trying to sort players and like him overall. I disagree with his handwaving of Pine, however.
What handwaving of Pine? His vote or?
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:04 pm
by alimdia
Nachomamma8
Nacho's posts seem to be pro town. However, a lot of them have been centered around the Hectic meta, which I'm not going to get into more. The other significant chunk is the discussion of the FN sparing D1 or not. This game is really dying and/or slow because the main discussion point is about that, rather than finding scum (or finding town). It is unfortunate and I can see the inevitability of a last minute deadline lynch, which lets scum get away with a lot.
In post 221, Nachomamma8 wrote:
Why are you voting Sherlock when you haven't read ant of his posts?
I quite clearly understand and read the relevant posts in regards to my accusations and his post 42 I'm referencing.
I wonder, do you understand my case?
Sherlock is voting or was voting with JT because JT healed him. He was explicit about this fact. Where do go from here to get the "Sherlock is scummy for his vote" conclusion?
I'm asking for a friend because I'm totally not voting with Amrun simply because Amrun said hi back.
But, even just saying that, I want to strike out on my own. I liked the "did something interesting?" post but the rest of the ISO seems stilted, withdrawn. Don't mind holding these feet to the fire.
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:08 pm
by alimdia
Chara
I feel like there is a pattern here.
Most of the posts are 'socialising/fluff? (unsure, I think there is some familiarity among the players), while the other half is once again discussion in regards to the FN sparing.
There are very few posts that are actually hunting scum. Chara has a very neutral stance it seems.
feel more like a round of thundersnail than an exciting battle between good and evil, i can't argue with that.
but Amrun, i'd like to poke the tiger here and see if we can't jumpstart this game a little more, given you expressed a regret at not doing that so far.
i was thinking your fight with Sujimichi was about as low-stakes as mine, so why not fight Asriel with Nacho instead of just nodding at it?
Sujimichi made a good point about who i was fighting. i did think Billy's initial action was suspicious, and wanted to find out more, but it can't do that now and sitting there isn't going to do anything.
Sujimichi didn't exactly impress me when they decided to tag in, but the way they pressed on their friendly neighbourhood idea, and especially the end of 226, really does feel like Sujimichi is just a straightforward sort!
we might not ever be really
good
friends, but i don't think someone with too much to hide usually responds to me like that.
Asriel's definitely boring me here... i don't mind getting him into things, either.
though... i do hope your volcano metaphor remains a metaphor. he's still my brother. if anyone's going to be holding him over a volcano, it's going to be me.
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:11 pm
by alimdia
Amrun
Even though Amrun has made very few posts, they already have more content than quite a few players. None of that FN discussion, which is really distracting everyone.
I didn't really agree on this Sujimichi scum read, but at least they're doing stuff.
In post 146, Amrun wrote:Ok, I read again because my eyes glazed over too many times.
On second pass, I like Hectic for town more than I thought, but I’m not hanging my hat on it.
I still like sujimichi for scum with a secondary pick of Asriel. I didn’t like Asriel’s awkwardness, but I did like chemist’s defense of it, which is +town majorly IMO. Chemist clearly has more meta with Asriel than I do, so I thought I’d trust him on it for the time being, but thinking back to the only micro I have with Asriel, I don’t remember this nervous twitchiness there, so, keeping an eye out.
In post 152, alimdia wrote:Sorry, how is Sujimichi trying to blend in? He's barely posted
A) I mean, that’s pretty much what a lot of scum do - post only as much as necessary.
B) the tonality of his post is very awkward and buddying of nacho who is obviously one of the stronger players in the game, especially at that juncture.
In post 278, Replica wrote:I have more thoughts than those-I had townleans on Chemist, Sugimichi, and Hectic from what I remember on my skim-but I've written enough for the game at the moment and don't want to flood it at once. Digestibility is more important than what you say. I'll put a heal vote down pretty soon.
In post 274, Amrun wrote:Do you think nacho and hectic are scum together, replica?
No, but I'm not anywhere close to speculating on teammates and a million other qualifications that this question begs for.
What, pray tell, is the scum motivation for nacho to manipulate meta to call Hectic town?
Town read.
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:13 pm
by alimdia
Regarding
Asriel
, they are as afk as Pine, yet they are getting more attention that Pine. This makes me think that maybe Pine is scum here.
Regarding
Replica
, I would reserve comment until they respond to Amrun's question.
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:18 pm
by alimdia
Hectic
You seem to have avoided picking a side as well, other than your heal on Chemist.
By the way, I'm not sure if its alignment specific, but it's really hard to find stuff you said when they are all pictures (rip ctrl-F)
Pray tell me, what do you think of Sherlock's retaliation.
I assume your vote on Sherlock from page 43 is not relevant to his retaliation on me, but rather his stances of townhunting as you said?
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:21 pm
by alimdia
In conclusion, theres way too much discussion on the FN claiming or not and to spare them D1, that anyone from any alignment can jump in and 'say the right stuff'. That's what I mean by safe topic.
I'm willing to give Sherlock the benefit of the doubt that he just seems to be an OMGUS type player. Because at least Sherlock is somewhat involved in scumhunting (even if he's absolutely wrong about me), and not sitting on the fence (or afking)
After my reread, it is clear that we have a serious lack of scumhunting, which I am not blaming Sujimichi for starting this whole discussion.
I'm actually thinking for the people that are actively posting, we need to pressure Chara, Chemist to give their reads. To a lesser extent, Hectic and Nacho too.
For the inactives, theres not too much to be gained from poking them, however as I mentioned before, I find it very interesting that Pine has been sort of given a free pass.
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:22 pm
by alimdia
HURT: UNVOTE
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:00 am
by Replica
Thanks for the fast correction Hectic, and my apologies to Nacho. Foot, meet mouth. And you're right; most manipulative in red was exactly what got me.
In post 280, Hectic wrote:what do ya think of Asriel's "awkward" posting so far?
I don't think it's very alignment indicative, and the only post I would really call awkward is the start. Their resistance to activity, and in particular the flippant question of #191, is annoying. Generally, I favor the pressure then lynch if they don't improve and give good content approach. This game's mechanics tell me not to do that, and my priority in the opening was elucidating my thoughts and getting engaged. Nothing challenges you to dig deeper into feelings of things being offcolor like trying to describe the source.
The substance of it is that Alimdia pushed to figure out why Sherlock followed the RVS vote. Sherlock seems to think this is a fruitless endeavor, and that it's common for scum to push this type of thing to feign scumhunting. While it can be fruitful, so far I don't see any reason to scumread Sherlock's vote with Theophrastus. I disagree with Sherlock that Alimdia's questioning means Alimdia is a good push. As much as I hate to take the middle ground and say "You're both wrong", I don't find either convincing. Weak presses and hunches become stronger reads and foundations down the line, but this isn't where I specifically should be looking right now imo. (Not that it's wrong to bring my attention to it, just a statement of trying to figure out where I should be looking instead)
I'm happy to have Alimdia and your #227 pushing and investigating until you're content, but barring further interactions neither angle interests me very much.
In post 278, Replica wrote:I have more thoughts than those-I had townleans on Chemist, Sugimichi, and Hectic from what I remember on my skim-but I've written enough for the game at the moment and don't want to flood it at once. Digestibility is more important than what you say. I'll put a heal vote down pretty soon.
In post 274, Amrun wrote:Do you think nacho and hectic are scum together, replica?
No, but I'm not anywhere close to speculating on teammates and a million other qualifications that this question begs for.
What, pray tell, is the scum motivation for nacho to manipulate meta to call Hectic town?
The answer is the easiest and most noncommittal one, and fortunately it's completely true: Nacho has motivation to put up an illusion of scumhunting and meta diving period, regardless of who his partners are. There's a reason I didn't leap to call Hectic town or scum off its basis, especially when the meta seemed to me so obviously flimsy.
The reason I described Nacho's behavior with the meta as bizarre was that I thought the poor meta would be astonishingly poor play and imitation as scum, but I didn't think he'd attack it with such flagrant negligence as town either. It better fit in scum, but it didn't cleanly fit in either. Revelation that I was the one who messed up means that I really don't agree with his use of meta given all the red flags, but it's not longer willfully and obviously blind. This is less bizarre, and while I disagree that the game is likely to be useful to Hectic's current meta, this is a debatable point and is rational to hold.
In general your style is inviting me to play the game of "if-then" conditionals based off things I weakly believe to begin with. I get that this is your way of scumhunting, thinking there's value in sending scum down a labyrinth of with a blindfold and see if they get out, but there's little incentive for me to investigate motivations that take as assumptions two alignments, neither of which I'm confident in, even in a world in which I assume you are town.
The scum response that tends to dominate this strategy is this: Go into the labyrinth with slight reservation. A little later find something with one of the people asked about, preferably one in and one out, to get falsely enthusiastic about. Frenetically increase your energy over the course of a few hours, you've found something but what does it mean? Start haphazard multiposting, thinking you've found something, you're trying to connect the dots but getting noticeably a bit lost and confused in the convolution. Instead of being a chore this thing that you started out disliking is starting to look like a complete map, a sign from God, if only you could just get that final dot. Do this for like, a few irl days, zeal decreasing slightly but still a believer. Seeing this, they treat you like a puppy dog, throw you a bone, try to refocus you onto something that actually makes sense, and bang: you're in the townbloc.
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:20 am
by Replica
Let's wind that back a bit. My biggest weakness as a player is that my attitude isn't as conducive to playing cooperatively as I'd like. In particular, anytime I sense condescension I tend to bite. I can't think of any reads or thoughts in particular I want to ask you about right now Amrun, but I'll revisit after I catch up with Chara/alimdia and see if I can think of something.
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:01 am
by Replica
In post 282, Chara wrote:the optimal mechanics walls.... here they come.
Have no fear, that was the extent of my mechanical comments for the most part. My stance is that we should spare Day 1 for sure, and 3/4 times overall. My preference is to have FN claim Day 1/Day 2. That's it. I think for the most part people know that this is the "correct in a mechanical vacuum" play, what we do is up to us. Sermons are a great way to put people to sleep and keep town out of the game.
In post 284, Chara wrote:275: me? two-timing? i'm the most honest child you could ever meet.
the way my conversation with Sujimichi went made me like them more. they were very matter of fact with their read on me, and i felt like i was being figured out some.
it feels either short-sighted or assumptive (is this a word? i'll make it one anyways) to say there are only two ways to approach someone you scumread, towntelling.
and more importantly... thanking me a couple of times didn't have much to do with the read getting better. that'd be pretty
bizarre
, wouldn't it?
I think what you're saying is pretty close to my point: You gave your rebuttal to them, but rather than more directly stating your thoughts you embarked on that weird joking "Stop, you're going to make me not want to lynch you anymore!" sideshow. These always strike me the wrong way. The bit about the thanking not being alignment indicative is a big part of what made it so strange and seen by me as an attempt to ingratiate yourself. I tried to give some sense that I knew that "wanting to lynch less" doesn't neatly equate to "towntelling", that there are more than two options and so on, which apparently didn't come through-but I think the point that there appears to be some level of dissonance in thoughts/action is valid.
From what I can tell in comparing your ISOs Sujimichi only gave his read on you a day later, but all our memories fail us. Parsing the posts I'm really struggling to see what you mean about "figuring you out", given that Sujimichi more implied that he couldn't understand much of your play.
In post 285, Chara wrote:now if we're getting into bizarre takes...
what is your point here? that it's strange i didn't say "that annoying dog has been contributing this whole time" earlier?
except that 192 happened because Sujimichi claimed nothing on the early pages was real content, to which i replied there was plenty. and i'm pretty sure i mentioned Hectic specifically as someone who's been 'doing things', so to speak, epecially considering we had discussions before 192 about how things were going with the gaggle of friendship-hopefuls that were gathered.
i don't really know how to word this... that it's both incorrect, but also a strange thing to focus on. who needs to be told Hectic is producing content?
...admittedly, Sujimichi. but who besides Sujimichi would need to be told? you can just read Hectic's posts.
I totally agree with you here; that post makes considerably more sense in context. The core idea I had skimming was that you seemed to be eagerly rolling with the flavor without commenting as much on the content it held. I think that's true at the start (#36#61), but I really misinterpreted this one when I switched to ISO while making the post. #63 also definitely doesn't fall under this category. It's been awhile since I've been in the saddle, but between this and the Hectic meta, these are some really sloppy mistakes on my end with no excuse. Gotta stop playing like garbage while other people pick up the slack.
