Newbie 2095 | Game over

[whiskey delta]

I've played with them in all three of my games thus far, but we were both town in all of those games. I couldn't tell you what scum!furtive looks like, I just haven't noticed anything that strikes me as a deviation from their towngame.

Fair enough. If you had to describe Town!FG in a word or two, what would it be?

[Malakittens]

Roden won’t be eliminated today.

At least give him a day to sort that out

[Malakittens]

@FG

can you go into more detail on your 246?

How do you and Alianna read each other generally?

Same question to

@Alianna

as well.

Wait, what exactly did you mean by this question?

I understand that most of your games so far have been together?

I'm asking how you would typically approach reading FG. You disagreed with my read so I was hoping for some insight from someone that has more time with him in game. What are his tells? Have you been able to figure out the difference in his play between alignments?

I've played with them in all three of my games thus far, but we were both town in all of those games. I couldn't tell you what scum!furtive looks like, I just haven't noticed anything that strikes me as a deviation from their towngame.

Tbh I was reading FG as town where he was scum until later in the game where between PoE and new text books scum tells sold it for me.

[Roden]

PRs get caught early by making it obvious they don't want attention when they usually play the game in every other game.

It might be a good idea to not blindly scum read anyone who tries to have independent thought.

Thank you.

Yeah I don't really care tbh, I'm mentally checked out at this point.

It's been pretty clear that I'm town simply for the fact I'm actually scum hunting and not playing with self preservation in mind.

Consider it a lesson about how people play the game I guess.

Btw why are we considering anyone other than Furtive if he was one of your top scum reads? Or were you just distancing from your partner?

I'll be honest - you're not really in a position to sit here and condescend after getting E-1'd on D1 as the Cop. For the better part of a week you parked your vote on a player and ignored/handwaved/mischaracterized analysis around them that said you were most likely wrong with your approach. You

still

have yet to answer questions that have been asked irt your case/read on hutmeil. I typed out a paragraph with post numbers included pointing out exactly why I was bothered by you and your response was "you just don't like how I say things" lol like what, dude? I'll take my share of the blame if we really did out the Cop on D1 but let's not pretend it was unwarranted. You'd be hammered by now if not for your claim, so there's that. What made you think playing so far outside of your typical range (according to others) AS THE COP was a good idea? Only now when I squint really hard does it make sense that you were so quick to jump on the PR discussion and sus Greeting for agreeing that your play was off.

Likewise, you say the bold & underlined about your own play but apparently cannot see that I have a similar "bull in China shop" approach. I haven't played in years and knocking the rust off will take time. You all are new to me and I have no idea how the site meta goes, but I'll learn and get better as we go. If you really are Town, then I suggest you step back and clear your head, do whatever you need to do, and look at everything with fresh eyes.

It's not really my problem if you can't read people. Instead of putting it off on me that my play got me E-1'd, maybe look at how the game state and your own play encouraged the player list to scum read anyone who speaks up and actively tries to play, then complaining that people aren't making posts and aren't playing. You actively discouraged people from posting and scum hunting, and if Furtive flips town then you also played a major part in setting up the town PR and a fellow townie into being forced into a 1v1/chain mis-elim.

So if I'll be honest, either your reads are bad or you're scum. Which is it?

[Roden]

Your play absolutely has not been "bull in a china shop" by any measure btw. You pressured Furtive, dipped out, then blamed me for your own bad reads.

[Alianna]

Roden won’t be eliminated today.

At least give him a day to sort that out

What do you mean by this?
If we get a CC, I'm probably voting Roden.
If nobody does, then he's conftown. A Cop fakeclaim gets CCed by any PR that isn't a doctor, and at least one exists in all 9 blocks.

[Alianna]

PRs get caught early by making it obvious they don't want attention when they usually play the game in every other game.

It might be a good idea to not blindly scum read anyone who tries to have independent thought.

Thank you.

Yeah I don't really care tbh, I'm mentally checked out at this point.

It's been pretty clear that I'm town simply for the fact I'm actually scum hunting and not playing with self preservation in mind.

Consider it a lesson about how people play the game I guess.

Btw why are we considering anyone other than Furtive if he was one of your top scum reads? Or were you just distancing from your partner?

I'll be honest - you're not really in a position to sit here and condescend after getting E-1'd on D1 as the Cop. For the better part of a week you parked your vote on a player and ignored/handwaved/mischaracterized analysis around them that said you were most likely wrong with your approach. You

still

have yet to answer questions that have been asked irt your case/read on hutmeil. I typed out a paragraph with post numbers included pointing out exactly why I was bothered by you and your response was "you just don't like how I say things" lol like what, dude? I'll take my share of the blame if we really did out the Cop on D1 but let's not pretend it was unwarranted. You'd be hammered by now if not for your claim, so there's that. What made you think playing so far outside of your typical range (according to others) AS THE COP was a good idea? Only now when I squint really hard does it make sense that you were so quick to jump on the PR discussion and sus Greeting for agreeing that your play was off.

Likewise, you say the bold & underlined about your own play but apparently cannot see that I have a similar "bull in China shop" approach. I haven't played in years and knocking the rust off will take time. You all are new to me and I have no idea how the site meta goes, but I'll learn and get better as we go. If you really are Town, then I suggest you step back and clear your head, do whatever you need to do, and look at everything with fresh eyes.

It's not really my problem if you can't read people. Instead of putting it off on me that my play got me E-1'd, maybe look at how the game state and your own play encouraged the player list to scum read anyone who speaks up and actively tries to play, then complaining that people aren't making posts and aren't playing.

You actively discouraged people from posting and scum hunting

, and if Furtive flips town then you also played a major part in setting up the town PR and a fellow townie into being forced into a 1v1/chain mis-elim.

So if I'll be honest, either your reads are bad or you're scum. Which is it?

Can you give examples of where whiskey delta did this?

[Roden]

Spoiler:

hutmeil seems Elim Bait ish to me but I am bothered by how they assumed Alianna meant a Town role in her post 11. Can you talk about that

@hutmeil

?

Dislike Roden hedging on that wagon more though

VOTE: Roden

Hedging how? I voted there.

For pressure. After stating you don’t think hutmeil would react that way as newbscum

Fwiw I had it in my head that your vote was E-2 but now I see that tako syndrome didn’t vote

Because in the greater context of the game Town clearing a possible MisElim early on as scum doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Could be faked, of course, yadda yadda but the post shows some depth I’m not sure scum go to just to TR someone they didn’t have to. lolme if wrong but I kinda like that read for where we are currently.

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

Is this the part where you double down on your pressure vote and turn it into a scum case?

I’d be curious to your thoughts on the reasons hutmeil is being TR by others and where you stand on that

It really has nothing to do with your phrasing and everything to do with the arguments you are making to SR hutmeil. If hutmeil is Town then you appear to be scum fabricating a case against them. Your reasons justifying your vote while discrediting the TRs on hutmeil don’t make sense to me. The fact it’s so against the grain does give me some measure of pause, however.

If I am just mixed up because my comprehension sucks that is something I can accept but if that is the case, maybe help me out and present your case against hutmeil again in a few sentences that detail everything? And any other things that have stood out to you so far

My two SRs suddenly turning on each other is an interesting twist that I'm gonna have to sleep on

I don't really get why I was a scumread initially, but that aside, this comment looks like you thought you had solved the game with me/Roden. Which is a terrible solve.

VOTE: Roden

LMAO perhaps so… I would be lying if I said I hadn’t entertained the idea already, but then again I figured your vote could end up here going back to 165 so I suppose it’s not all that surprising after all. I have been wondering when or if it would ever come which is also part of why I forced the issue.

What I really mean is you and Roden cross voting and being tied at E-2 is good info for now and later on. I don’t expect to be 2/2 but I also don’t think I’m 0/2. It’s a toss up until I’ve had more time process and see others weigh in.

“switching from Roden to me makes it look like you don’t care which of us goes”

I would say pushing both of my D1 SRs is exactly what I should be doing here. Not having a definitive answer because it’s page 10 of D1 doesn’t mean I don’t care. More wagons equal more info and if swapping between two players I can see either being scum generates more then that is a good thing.

Let me clarify further so you at least have a better idea of where I am regarding you both. Independently I find you both scummy for reasons I have laid out. Whatever team tells I was seeing could admittedly just be conf bias as I tend to get ahead of myself sometimes and can be pretty confident in my reads once I get going

It is not lost upon me that after I mentioned a willingness to swap to you if necessary that Roden - as lead wagon - pivoted to you shortly after when it was apparent the hutmeil push was getting a lot of static and with no prior mention. I think this looks ~bad but maybe it’s genuine and they are spreading focus elsewhere like they stated. Between the two of you, I think Roden has an upper hand at the moment because of the points they are bringing up. Several of your reads have flopped without much to point to as the reason and other moves seem to lack conviction imo, sort of like you are doing them just for the sake of it. Even now, it feels more like you’re voting Roden because you were called out for it rather than because you actually think they could be a wolf.

Last post until this evening unless someone responds to me directly. I’d like others to start weighing in since I feel you, me, and Roden have been the loudest over the last several pages.

[Roden]

Alianna it might be helpful to do literally anything other than snipe at a specific thing a conftown has said to try to discredit them.

[Alianna]

I might be blind, but I don't see how any of those posts are doing that. A lot of it is them asking questions and wanting to hear other people's thoughts. They said twice that they wanted to see others weigh in.
The ones that aren't doing that are sharing reads, which I don't think discourages discussion.
Mind explaining what you're seeing in these posts?

P-edit: Yeah. It might be. It might also be helpful to point out what I see as flaws in said conftown's reads so that maybe we get on the same page.

[Alianna]

Though I understand if it didn't come off like that.

[Roden]

Ok, let me start by asking how you think scum plays. Are they going to come out and say things that stick out and sound shady? Or are they going to be reserved and try to sound helpful/solvey?

[Alianna]

Ok, let me start by asking how you think scum plays. Are they going to come out and say things that stick out and sound shady? Or are they going to be reserved and try to sound helpful/solvey?

It's not that simple.
One would expect they'd do the latter, but they could also go for the WIFOM and hope people think it's too scummy to be scum.
A scum player might also lack self-awareness about how shady they're being (I don't think that applies to you, but you asked about scum in general).
Either way, you're basically conftown, so it's not like I still think otherwise.

[Alianna]

I don't think it's a good idea to operate off of generalizations about what scum do or don't do.

[whiskey delta]

From 278

“You actively discouraged people from posting and scum hunting,

and if Furtive flips town then you also played a major part in setting up the town PR and a fellow townie into being forced into a 1v1/chain mis-elim

.”

Couldn’t disagree more about the first sentence but whatever

Bold sounds a little bull in china shop-y to me dude ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

From 286

“Are they going to come out and say things that stick out and sound shady? Or are they going to be reserved and try to sound helpful/solvey?”

Which of these describe me based on what you said above?

[whiskey delta]

VOTE: 72offsuit

[Roden]

Ok, let me start by asking how you think scum plays. Are they going to come out and say things that stick out and sound shady? Or are they going to be reserved and try to sound helpful/solvey?

It's not that simple.
One would expect they'd do the latter, but they could also go for the WIFOM and hope people think it's too scummy to be scum.
A scum player might also lack self-awareness about how shady they're being (I don't think that applies to you, but you asked about scum in general).
Either way, you're basically conftown, so it's not like I still think otherwise.

Too scummy to be scummy (TSTBS) doesn't quite work in a newbie game, people are willing to jump on scummy behavior and generally follow the mindset of "anyone but me". Newbscum players especially don't want to look scummy and will overcompensate to look town, and may be coached by their partner in order to look more townie. They tend to complain when activity is low, try to get low posters to post, and defer to other more aggressive town players in order to stay in their good graces. SE players know this because they've seen it happen many times, and understand that it's just part of the meta for the format. In a more standard game, this doesn't apply quite as much, but the point is that this isn't a standard game.

Besides that, if you truly believe scum will try to go for TSTBS, then Hutmeil would not have been white knighted nearly as hard as they were this game, and the people who actually tried to solve the slot would not have been attacked and scum read for it. WIFOM is certainly a thing that exists, but normally isn't used as someone's entire strategy because it simply isn't consistent, and can get you policy elim'd if it becomes known to be part of your playstyle/meta.

I don't think it's a good idea to operate off of generalizations about what scum do or don't do.

This is a newbie game, the point of playing here is to understand the meta for how town and scum play.

[Roden]

VOTE: 72offsuit

Btw why are we considering anyone other than Furtive if he was one of your top scum reads? Or were you just distancing from your partner?

You never answered this.

[Roden]

1) It's just the way I read the interaction

2) You're talking a lot which is better than some. If you vote Tidus or 72offsuit, I'll consider voting with you. If you stay on me I'll probably end up voting you.

It's a massive problem that 72offsuit and Tidus of the X aren't talking more. They've entered my scumpool by process of elimination.

Out of the more active seven of us, I can only really see Roden and Alianna being mafia.

Easy, it’s just a game after all. I am laughing at you calling my read terrible, to be specific. Like I said, it could be, but before this latest development it seemed you were reluctant to vote Roden despite them being in your POE so maybe it’s not so terrible or I’m just thrown off because you telegraphed this a while ago but only now have come around to it.

I have time to consider you both more. Putting you at E-2 and forcing you to call your own bluff and put my other SR at E-2 is beneficial to me and to the game state. I’d like to see others weigh in before I do anything else, like I already stated. No one has yet. For where we were 5-6 pages ago this is great stuff.

“switching from Roden to me makes it look like you don’t care which of us goes”

I would say pushing both of my D1 SRs is exactly what I should be doing here. Not having a definitive answer because it’s page 10 of D1 doesn’t mean I don’t care. More wagons equal more info and if swapping between two players I can see either being scum generates more then that is a good thing.

I feel like either 72offsuit/Malakittens counterclaims here, or we should vote 72offsuit.

I've played with them in all three of my games thus far, but we were both town in all of those games. I couldn't tell you what scum!furtive looks like, I just haven't noticed anything that strikes me as a deviation from their towngame.

Fair enough. If you had to describe Town!FG in a word or two, what would it be?

VOTE: 72offsuit

This is not a natural progression from either player.

[Roden]

Maybe I'm just a bad player who can't do anything right, but to me it looks like Furtive and Whiskey were hedging their bets on my elimination, and now that they can't have it they want to vote out a low poster slot that won't fight back and nobody wants to defend.

[Roden]

Early town leans on Greetings and 72

page 2 reads lol

Town

Alianna
Greeting
Malakittens
hutmeil

72
Tidus
FG
Roden

Scum

This is how I'm seeing things currently and admittedly a lot hedges on hutmeil being Town and Roden being scum.

I already mentioned 79 from

Alianna

that I liked a lot. It's a good evaluation coming from what it did and just generally not a read I would expect scum to make in that spot. They are being responsive in a way that gives me the impression they are paying attention and prodding others for info. Feels Townie and probability also says they probably just are.

I liked

Greeting

early on for 41. Easy post to make for scum but still ~Townie in purpose. You can see how they are carrying the read they make on hutmeil while branching out in their responses. 182 more or less mirrors my sentiment irt Roden and I would consider this vote clearing if Roden ever flips scum.

Malakittens

is almost pure tone reading. I wasn't the biggest fan of their entrance once they replaced in but their handling of hutmeil has been more dynamic than others and I generally like their response to FG in 177. Again, simple probability means this slot is most likely Town so without any flips to readjust accordingly I feel semi-good.

hutmeil

is admittedly my leap of faith read in this situation. I am more convinced by what others have said than anything hutmeil has done in particular, but again if Roden turns up red then I would take them off the table as well.

72

got an early TL for 20 & 47 because they seem geared to generate reactions. Didn't give much when asked for content but seems to be digging in now and asking pointed questions. Holding pattern until I see more but still >rand Town.

Tidus

hasn't said much which looks ~bad but at the same time I feel like scum would try harder to look productive. 148 isn't much but might be a >Townie reaction.

Furtive

elim would be something I could compromise on. I would describe their play as present enough to avoid suspicion without really making an impact either. 63 & 69 feel a bit contrived. They are asking questions and making comments along the way which aren't overtly troublesome but gut says are off. 120 & 122 make me curious about their reasons for having Alianna as a TR in 165 which sort of reads like cheeky TMI. FG as Town along with those 5 listed means their POE would be down to Tidus, Malalt, and Roden which makes the sequence between 137 & 150 interesting in a world where Roden is scum. The mix up could be genuine but I'm more pointing out the fact that they should be considering Roden a suspect based on their own reads but seem to be voting around the wagon up to this point. Worth coming back to if there is ever a scum reveal between these two.

Roden

55 initially pinged because I didn't like how they were saying hutmeil was more likely Town but still voting them for "pressure". I feel their SR on hutmeil has developed unnaturally like they latched on early and have been backing their way into it. 123 & 124 is where I think this begins. Hutmeil doesn't say anything in 90 or 109 that implies they were voting Roden because they had more votes at the time so calling the vote opportunistic reads like false justification. 167 & 185 don't feel accurate to me irt hutmeil getting TRs. I'm not sure how he came to that conclusion but I disagree that hutmeil hasn't been analyzed or was done for self-preservation. Besides the SR on hutmeil I don't have an idea of where they are on anyone else, which in itself concerns me too. Others have said they don't recognize this play from Roden so I am willing to reconsider if needed but they are my strongest SR at this point and I would be fine eliminating if the deadline was today.

That peek doesn’t sit right with me. Why not someone like 72/Tidus/hutmeil rather than a ~consensus TR?

This is not the progression of a lot that scum reads 72. They clearly town read them, and instead scum read me and Furtive. So why not vote Furtive? Why the sudden shift onto 72, the player that one of their top scum reads wants gone?

[72offsuit]

Also, irrelevant, but this is the slowest D1 I have ever endured. It's taken us around 3 days to get near the end of the third page. The other games I've been in reached this point in a matter of hours.

Slight townlean from this post.
I think town is much more frustrated with inactivity than scum. Scum thrives on town apathy.
The frustration feels genuine to me.

I disagree. Newbies very well can fake frustration and be hyperactive, even if they claim it's on purpose (13, 18). I am keeping an eye on that slot.

This is giving me scum vibes.

Greeting disagrees with the theory behind my townread.
Sure, players CAN fake frustration.
I don't think that's the case here.

Greeting focuses more on newbies in general, rather than directly saying he feels it's genuine or not.

Then concludes with a super vague "I'll keep an eye out"

Potential scum-scum vibes here even though I'd say aliana is leaning town more than scum as at this post

[72offsuit]

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

Is this the part where you double down on your pressure vote and turn it into a scum case?

I’d be curious to your thoughts on the reasons hutmeil is being TR by others and where you stand on that

I'll have further things to say on Hutmeil when they respond and offer more content.

Hutmeil is getting town read because no one really wants to rock the boat in newbie games. It's easier to defend someone than attack them, it typically gets you town read and lessens attention on yourself compared to those who go on the offensive. People are going to criticize Hut's play but hesitate to vote there, since they're giving off the appearance of a clueless townie.

Regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, scum won't be pushing there and will almost certainly white knight the slot. If Hut is scum, their play is just there to obfuscate the game state and make it a slog to solve people. If they're town, they will get white knight'd extra hard, and scum will let them lead the charge on OMGUS counter wagons so that Hut will take the heat every time town gets flipped.

This is an interesting point. My initial response is that you earlier scumread Hutmeil and backed it up, but now seem to be acknowledging that they're townread. Do you now think they're town, or am I wrongly inferring that?

You say regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, but scum can only 'white knight' a town player, surely?

I don't think that they're town, I just understand why they're getting town read. No matter Hutmeil's actual alignment, I think the reason they're getting town read is a poor reason, since it comes from self-preservation rather than any attempts to actually analyze the player.

Also, scum can white knight each other, because unless the town knows who the exact scum team is, no one can tell the difference between white knighting and defending a partner.

Scum cannot white knight each other.
The whole idea behind white knighting is scum defending a townie and then looking good if that slot flips town.

If scum a defend scum b and scum b flips, scum look bad for defending known scum.

[72offsuit]

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

Is this the part where you double down on your pressure vote and turn it into a scum case?

I’d be curious to your thoughts on the reasons hutmeil is being TR by others and where you stand on that

I'll have further things to say on Hutmeil when they respond and offer more content.

Hutmeil is getting town read because no one really wants to rock the boat in newbie games. It's easier to defend someone than attack them, it typically gets you town read and lessens attention on yourself compared to those who go on the offensive. People are going to criticize Hut's play but hesitate to vote there, since they're giving off the appearance of a clueless townie.

Regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, scum won't be pushing there and will almost certainly white knight the slot. If Hut is scum, their play is just there to obfuscate the game state and make it a slog to solve people. If they're town, they will get white knight'd extra hard, and scum will let them lead the charge on OMGUS counter wagons so that Hut will take the heat every time town gets flipped.

This is an interesting point. My initial response is that you earlier scumread Hutmeil and backed it up, but now seem to be acknowledging that they're townread. Do you now think they're town, or am I wrongly inferring that?

You say regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, but scum can only 'white knight' a town player, surely?

I don't think that they're town, I just understand why they're getting town read. No matter Hutmeil's actual alignment, I think the reason they're getting town read is a poor reason, since it comes from self-preservation rather than any attempts to actually analyze the player.

Also, scum can white knight each other, because unless the town knows who the exact scum team is, no one can tell the difference between white knighting and defending a partner.

Lunchtime post, only up to 185 sry peeps, will read further tonight, probs in about 6-8 hours

[Roden]

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

Is this the part where you double down on your pressure vote and turn it into a scum case?

I’d be curious to your thoughts on the reasons hutmeil is being TR by others and where you stand on that

I'll have further things to say on Hutmeil when they respond and offer more content.

Hutmeil is getting town read because no one really wants to rock the boat in newbie games. It's easier to defend someone than attack them, it typically gets you town read and lessens attention on yourself compared to those who go on the offensive. People are going to criticize Hut's play but hesitate to vote there, since they're giving off the appearance of a clueless townie.

Regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, scum won't be pushing there and will almost certainly white knight the slot. If Hut is scum, their play is just there to obfuscate the game state and make it a slog to solve people. If they're town, they will get white knight'd extra hard, and scum will let them lead the charge on OMGUS counter wagons so that Hut will take the heat every time town gets flipped.

This is an interesting point. My initial response is that you earlier scumread Hutmeil and backed it up, but now seem to be acknowledging that they're townread. Do you now think they're town, or am I wrongly inferring that?

You say regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, but scum can only 'white knight' a town player, surely?

I don't think that they're town, I just understand why they're getting town read. No matter Hutmeil's actual alignment, I think the reason they're getting town read is a poor reason, since it comes from self-preservation rather than any attempts to actually analyze the player.

Also, scum can white knight each other, because unless the town knows who the exact scum team is, no one can tell the difference between white knighting and defending a partner.

Lunchtime post, only up to 185 sry peeps, will read further tonight, probs in about 6-8 hours

Already dealt with that. But you might want to catch up soon, you have two people pushing for your elim near EoD.