Mafiascum.net

In post 2821, Prism wrote:You are 100% not above playing hurt to engineer townreads, and the attitude around bork right now is vaguely familiar.

need to go to bed and i'm not getting really anywhere trying to gleam anything about quiet's substantive posts atm but the posts you linked here very much lack bite to them whereas what she just posted to me earlier tonight had it to the point where it gave me mood whiplash and i had to do a double take to make sure i didn't come across with more vitriol than i intended to before i realized i'd just not provided object context to a part of my post

i just don't think she does this as scum and in fact if she were she should secretly relish that what i'm posting doesn't make sense when interpreted about her and isn't really a reason for her to lose her cool
whereas if i'm just misrepping her to the point where she can't feel she can talk to me it does make sense for her to react how she did
and she didn't use this opportunity to vote me or anything she just boxed me out because she was frustrated with my attitude. this is like the perfect point in the game to vote me, too, wagonwise.

In post 2824, Prism wrote:

In post 2818, MathBlade wrote:

In post 2813, Prism wrote:I just want to note my hero solve here is GreyICE, DGB, B_M and I strongly doubt it's right but I want it on paper.

@Prism >> This solve involves an all town wagon on Cakez and Cakez town. Can you go into how/why you think that could have happened?

GreyICE votes early expecting it to go nowhere, quiet literally wasn't even around, BM makes a bad decision to voteswap. I can 100% see the first two it's more the third that's an issue and I think better candidates might be Dunn/you/Tammy for 3rd. I don't know why I so strongly just refuse to see Cakez as scum.

In post 2819, MathBlade wrote:

In post 2805, Prism wrote:And on the 10th of March, 2021, Titus corrected course and delivered, holy shit. Still want more but good, good stuff.

I disagree here. I do not find this town!Titus at all. There’s still the same assumptions that I have asked her several times to think about and feels like she’s made up her mind before she types it.

I liked it because the conclusions were better than bork/Bell imo but definitely need more.

Probably going to call it a night, have been reading the game for eons tonight and need to actually do something else with my life, but I'm really happy to have the game open and fresh again.

And that’s what is frustrating me. I think D1 was really solid and with how votes flipped I really struggle to see Cakez and Titus both town. Yes it’s purely a VCA reason but I can’t get anyone to explain it. If no one explains it, my reads don’t change and it’s like a brick wall.

In post 2825, borkjerfkin wrote:

In post 2821, Prism wrote:You are 100% not above playing hurt to engineer townreads, and the attitude around bork right now is vaguely familiar.

need to go to bed and i'm not getting really anywhere trying to gleam anything about quiet's substantive posts atm but the posts you linked here very much lack bite to them whereas what she just posted to me earlier tonight had it to the point where it gave me mood whiplash and i had to do a double take to make sure i didn't come across with more vitriol than i intended to before i realized i'd just not provided object context to a part of my post

i just don't think she does this as scum and in fact if she were she should secretly relish that what i'm posting doesn't make sense when interpreted about her and isn't really a reason for her to lose her cool
whereas if i'm just misrepping her to the point where she can't feel she can talk to me it does make sense for her to react how she did
and she didn't use this opportunity to vote me or anything she just boxed me out because she was frustrated with my attitude. this is like the perfect point in the game to vote me, too, wagonwise.

If it helps I have no clue how to read Tammy but I'm not voting her today lmao, just getting my concerns out there

P-Edit: I mean fair enough MathBlade with the VCA, I get that you think there must be one on somewhere, but for me I feel better about flipping DGB and GI than any of the Dunn/Titus/Cakez slots, neither of which are on the wagon. I'm not going to chain together elims on people I don't really have scumreads on from the Cakez wagon in the hopes that surely one of them is scum, whether we find that out on the 1st elim or the 4th.

I don't really think VCA works because I haven't seen a single piece of consistent evidence that it does. I can't find a research paper on it. I can't find a statistical analysis on it. I cannot find a statistically significant finding about it.

So.

On further looking, while I think it's possible Pooky tried to save Mastina through pushing a Sircakez miselim. I actually find Pooky pretty townie overall It's not a town bin. But I have some trouble imagining Pooky responding to Mastina the way he did out the gate. He's usually more tolerant of his scum partners out the gate? Maybe?

*holds up microphone to Pookythemagicalbear* Could you comment on your initial reaction to Mastina and self-meta dazzle me with why you can't possibly be scum this game because of X, Y, and Z?

Pedit: My read on Tammy is that she's spiky and that I don't wish to be hurt.

wait a fucking second

i just realized something hahahaha


look at mastina's readslists:



this is the first one, to the best of my knowledge, the entire top layer is town LLD is mason, I'm town, Bell/Tammy are strong TRs and KTT/Sangres got killed at night.



she then adds dunn/bork into the top layer - and then later adds GreyIce 4 posts later.

So what's more likely:

Mastina trolled her scum team by putting 6 actual town in her "locktown" section for lulz

and then added three more town for even more trolling.

or

realized it was a shit idea and decided to put a scum teammate in after regretting an all town top layer readlist?

In post 2828, Bell wrote:On further looking, while I think it's possible Pooky tried to save Mastina through pushing a Sircakez miselim. I actually find Pooky pretty townie overall It's not a town bin. But I have some trouble imagining Pooky responding to Mastina the way he did out the gate. He's usually more tolerant of his scum partners out the gate? Maybe?

*holds up microphone to Pookythemagicalbear* Could you comment on your initial reaction to Mastina and self-meta dazzle me with why you can't possibly be scum this game because of X, Y, and Z?

to your first point:

If I were scum and Cakez is town, I would not stop pushing. I would push until he's dead. You saw how I operate in Tenet, I drive until the target is dead, I am not scared of getting my hands dirty. I killed flavor leaf in like 2 hours total from first vote to him self hammering.

Compare that to the last 2 hours of D1 where I barely said anything. If I had actual stakes in this, I would just pile drive Cake all the way until he's gone.

to your second point:

there's something called "Standard Mastina Protocol"

where LLD flips Mastina's readslist upside down, and just starts killing from the top of it.

Hence when Mastina put me that far up on her readslist - there's a good chance LLD just flips that around and kills me lol.

also Mastina knows this so I think she was trying to get cute with LLD :3

In post 2821, Prism wrote:Giant wall for Tammy, my responses are in red.

Spoiler: Regarding bork

In post 2719, Tammy wrote:Prism - I do owe you my thoughts on Bork though before I get started.

In post 2085, borkjerfkin wrote:

In post 2082, sangres wrote:I don't know what to think of bork right now. I'm not leaving this game day with a townread, and that's extremely disturbing.

I'll be around more after my class is over, but did this happen to start when i said that your post could come from scum? Because this is the first I've heard of that kind of sentiment from you.

Like I'm sorry but wagon movement has been extremely weird in the latter half of this day and a town flip on mastina here, especially if Titus flips scum later on in the game, puts that under scrutiny for me.

Explain to me why that's unreasonable.

So initially this read really skeevy to me because the "oh do you not have a townread on me because x" just felt so off. It didn't feel right because Bork has felt off and oddly kinda angry all game and not town, so it felt like the kind of deflecting emotional manipulation he did to ffery in Illicit Substances.

Why it feels off are things like this:

If I'm reading things correctly, the post where he suggests sangres vote could come from scum was this one:

In post 1840, borkjerfkin wrote:

In post 1839, Spiffeh wrote:If you're talking about the recent votes on mastina, who specifically are you spooked by on that wagon?

Honestly? Everyone except Bell and Battle Mage because they weren't interested in Titus to begin with:

any of
Sangres 1716
Prism 1725
your 1831

Feel to me like they could possibly be stay-off-my-buddy votes just because none of them have any real "I've changed my mind about Titus" to them, and if mastina flips green there basically has to be scum in there

Which came after this:

In post 1615, sangres wrote:

In post 1614, Tammy wrote:

In post 1595, Bell wrote:The only thing its done really is made it slightly harder to read Tammy and KTT.

Are you referring to the post restriction? And if you read me as scum after we claimed IC, I don't think you have a handle on what town me looks like, don't think you'd be able to tell in more posts, and I'm not going to go all scary-face to get you to read me correctly. But if you are referring to the post restriction. The only thing that the post restriction has done is had me put together posts into one that I wouldn't normally bother with. I'd still have not been around much this week because I was busy with work stuff.

~~~

Ffery - I think maybe I understand where you got your original thought? When I mentioned not having you as town to town paean level, it was just a reference of my strength of read. In Tenet, when you made the town paean post, I knew you were town. I got paranoid here and there even after we died when I was somewhat keeping up in case we came back, but I always came back to that post as my tether for me just knowing you were town. So, when I referenced that it just meant that my strength of read was not what it was in Tenet, and I wouldn't want what pushed you to that reaction for me to have that kind of safety in a read.

I just wouldn't bet the game on any of my reads right this moment.

How do you feel about bork?

pedit: that's a total mood. Also don't bet on nacho right this minute. He wanted to "take a nap" a few hours ago because he's got a weird schedule tomorrow and I tried to wake him up from said nap and his response was something like why fight the inevitable or some shit like that. He'll probably do something stupid like wake up at 3 am and totally fuck himself over for work, so maybe you hear from him then.

I had this moment earlier today where I asked myself if there's an unequivocally town post in bork's iso to hold onto and pin down this cloud of a read I have right now, and I felt like maybe there isn't. And then he made a post that was a new thought -- a new question that nobody else had asked and I hadn't thought to ask myself and I thought "there he is! and oh look, he's asking a trajectory^tm question!"

And then Math came in and dumped on it and used it to chain bork and Titus together (with Prism?) and to push the idea of bork and mastina as partners apart.

Like there's not a world where bork just noticed the discrepancy and questioned Mastina.

Anyway, bork still worries me a little. He feels distant, maybe preoccupied.

And yeah, that is a mood. I feel like I've been in too much of a holding pattern, when I should just play onward and sync if and when.

Bell's made some decent points and my read's grown shakier over time, not stronger.

So the Bork suspicion did not come out of nowhere. In fact, sangres had never really expressed a town read on Bork other than liking the post in which he said that they didn't have to worry about him that game and kinda townreading it.

So it felt like a way to jump at her to push her a bit off her footing without recognizing that she'd already been wondering about him.

This felt extremely town to me at the time, and on most rereads. I can see a world where bork is trying to fish out where he's going wrong, but bork had previously been pretty annoyed by several ~not ideal~ suggestions by sangres beforehand, such as in 1088 and with the voteswaps around mastina. The disappointment and demand line up well with someone who has high expectations of both players in the sangres slot.

A few days ago I was thinking about this again, and I started to doubt the above a little bit. Years ago Bork and I hydrad in a game where ffery and nacho hydrad, and while ffery was always iffy about me nacho read me very well and both of them read Bork very well. But in this game, both of them were concerned about us even though we were both being very town throughout the game. And both of us were very freaked out about their question marks on us, and it caused us to have some suspicion on them for positionality reasons and there was some friction.

So when I remembered that, I'm not completely sure that his reaction wouldn't have been similar if he were town too, and I'm not sure what to do with my original reaction to his response to ffery.

Spoilering that because this post is too big as it is, but a couple things read off. I don't like deflection onto me in his spiffeh thing before this post which he's done more than once now. It didn't feel like a search for selective scumhunting, which would make sense sort of, but more of a deflection that feels scummy. I don't really get his anger over the concern that sangres showed suspicion on bork and now they're dead so hmm, and really don't understand the angry "I crumbed I was visiting them" as if we're supposed to know that bit.

The prior sentence confuses me because both are extremely understandable things to be frustrated about, not that people should know it but that bork

softed visiting sangres, wanted to visit them, wanted to townblock, felt bad about being wrong on the mastina wagon, only to have them die instead

. To be blunt, the sangres visit claim is absolutely brilliant as scum.

I just reread through his iso and I don't even see it knowing it's supposed to be here.

That said I would like to see the specific soft too LMAO

I mean yeah, it's annoying when you're town and people accuse you of this. I expected to get it myself once I saw that sangres was dead because nacho was there and most people don't understand nacho and my goals with each other concerning mafia. Think that Bork isn't really understanding where and why ffery did get concerned about me and that she ultimately was fine so it's weird that Bork deflected there and acting like it's the same. Beyond that I'd really appreciate his spiffeh thoughts that weren't just so centered around spiffeh's thoughts on bork.

I guess you kind of get it here but I just...don't really see the same scum intent here that you do, honestly. I reviewed the deflection about you to Spiffeh. I can

see

why he'd say it as scum, but I see the town bork world too, and I don't think he's seriously pushing you?

I'm going to make that last sentence and immediately be a hypocrite because I hate his entire paragraph about me. The nothing concrete thing is full of cringe because that's often the way that scum talk about me and my posts. I'm not playing really any differently than I've played the past few games, and he was reading us in tenet based on my posts before we claimed IC, and his paranoia on us there felt more free flowing and organic. And the way that he got his initial read on me felt really really natural in tenet. I'm missing that there. I just read over my iso to see if this, and his earlier post, was a fair interpretation of my posts, and I don't think it is. I've made a few posts about my approach, not a lot. My claim wasn't really unprompted, I initially thought Cakez and I couldn't exist together but my sense of balance sucks so I thought I'd put it out there for people more adept than me to judge. I don't know it feels a bit off and my place on his list feels positional even thought I don't really have a problem with where I am in his list. I don't know if that makes sense.

I think what you're missing is that you've been very demonstrative as to your

process

, such as in the "all mixed up" post and in 1087, but the result is more often than not ambivalence. For the most part, I'm the only one you've really gone to bat for, which is great, but Bork-and I-both really want to see you go to bat on other slots and take stronger stances (Not that you have to fake them, but that this is the missing link for me, and I suspect for bork too)

I don't like some of his focus on mathblade. He's acting like people can't be irritated with the mathblade interaction issue, which weirdly makes me feel like he's not town trying to actually read people and the game through this. I feel like if he were town he'd understand the frustration a bit more. The focus later on mathblade being town so the wagon shouldn't be there feels like an easy thing to pop in and plunk down about. We're not bronzing mathblade, we all know we're not actually bronzing mathblade no matter how we want to policy here and there, so it feels like just something easy to pop in for.

I, and several other players, have actively pitched just going "fuck it mathblade ig" and while this might be free for borkscum, him telling us to stop being morons 100% makes sense imo

BUT through all that, our poe isn't all that terribly different, which makes me wonder if we are not understanding each other this game. I would not have pooky or greyice as high as he has them as confidently as he does. And I'm not as confident that Titus is scum as he is but I definitely had some issues with her day one. If I could muster the ability to do a reads list though it wouldn't be so completely different that there's no way we're looking at the same game.

So, I've come down to not really knowing what to do with this read.

You also seem to think bork's ISO is mostly focused on Titus. While he scumreads her Day 1, he absolutely does not spend all day on her, noticeably calls out mastina at great times, and had a great point on Cakez that I 100% agreed with in that his "inb4 I get eliminated for flavor" rang EXTREMELY legitimate. He doesn't capitalize on your claim, he once again makes mastina viable when she's almost out of the woods via Bell/sangres unvotes, Posts like 1012 and 1309 are great.

Overall, I think you are town but I am very concerned about your slot for some of the reasons regarding ambivalence/not going to bat against others, your posturing towards a potential Cakez switch, and a bit about the spat today. You are 100% not above playing hurt to engineer townreads, and the attitude around bork right now is vaguely familiar. I've also had the fear Day 1 that you leaned into the meta discussion about me because you thought it was a good way to get a townread, rather than actively holding onto it to get a stronger read on me. You were 100% spot on that I don't take the mechanical claim risk as scum, and that goes such a long way that I'm willing to just give you a pass on your interactions with my slot in general, but the sangres read definitely did not line up with your earlier perception of me. Lastly, this is a bit of a reach but:

In post 2449, Tammy wrote:

In post 2445, Prism wrote:IDK if you missed it Tammy but the reason sangres was killed is because they had successfully linked up with MathBlade, scum couldn't risk it and it is primarily thanks to MathBlade that we voted scum Day 1 and are in a good position today Day 2.

I am sure it had a lot less to do with sangres being obvious town all day, townblocking with you, me, and a few others, and successfully hammering the scum despite vocal opposition.

I do remember now that when I checked in and voted Mastina it was because I was sheeping

you, Sangres and bell

mathblade, thanks for setting me straight!

It's very unclear how much this matches up to reality.

Prism - Will read the Bork bit, but wanted to address the stuff about me first.

I am not above emotional manipulation as scum you are correct. A couple things, that game was the last scum game I payed before rolling it in flying scumsman, I was, there too, in a hydra with nacho, which does alter my confidence some. You might remember that I also dipped from that game and midscummers around the same time, and just stopped posting. That game was one of my last games before I took a coupe year break from mafia. I unleashed on spiffeh my frustrations with mafia and how people were scumhunting. My annoyance there was real, and I unleashed my frustrations about people’s expectations about me and how I was supposed to play. I went through a period where if I didn’t post in rvs, wasntfunny enough in rvs, wasn’t townread by everyone posting by page two, wasn’t happy enough or mad in the right way early game I got pushed for being scum. At that time, mafia was crushing me and I unleashed it all at that point. The only reason that might have been town read in that game is because I’m an easily frustrated person who gets bitchy as town.

I don’t think that’s at all similar to the issue I had with Bork. We got our wires crossed, and I misunderstood. Much of his day one was centered around titus and the titus read. That doesn’t mean he did nothing else, and all I wanted and still want was for him to flesh out that read to better read Bork because for how strong it was day one it didn’t feel very fleshed out.

Heh I expected to get called out for that cakez post. I almost did move to cakez in that post, but I kinda talked myself out of it by the end of that post, and then I walked away from the thread so I wouldn’t keep waffling, I was around and reading while watching warehouse 13, but I have a very bad habit of waffling and jumping around end of day one which I’m trying to curb, I decided my vote was better off where it was and I wasn’t posting again unless it was needed at deadline.

I’m not sure what the sangres read with regards to you. If you’re ire talking about the expectations, I originally thought when you said if scum ffery would play up paranoia on you to mean that you had recognized the way that ffery displays fake paranoia when scum based on the normal you guys played, But you meant something completely different.

What’s funny is I actually expected you to scum read me for my thoughts on your meta. In part because I thought you’d think I was trying to manipulate you or you’d just get freaked out that I was building meta theories about how to read you. I’m not sure I’d have explained all that at the time, or who I’d have held it for, but after I said I was townleaning you for stupid reasons you asked why it would be stupid to town read someone for the flavor claim. Not sure if or when I would have talked about my meta thoughts because I don’t know who I would have been using it to get a read on in this game. (That’s how I remember the convo happening, might have something out of sequence, but I just remember thinking welp once I explain this prisms gonna scum read me in return.)

yeah that last bit is a stretch. I was heavily leaning towards voting Mastina anyway. The day before I voted I told ffery I was rereading through mastina and that’s probably where my vote was gonna end up, but then the next day I read through cakez and thought that’s where my vote was gonna end up. I got really frustrated with the thread the day I made my vote, and before I voted I looked at the wagons and greyice, you, sangres, and bell, someone else maybe were on Mastina, and you, sangres and bell were a,omg the people I felt best about in the game, Considering my own misgivings on Mastina I decided you guys being on the wagon helped me stop waffling there a bit. So, it was a bit hyperbolic of me to say I sheeped you guys, which came in part as a shorthand way to express my frustrations with mathblade stake there, but you guys being on the wagon was absolutely a part of why I ended up there,

Lacks bite is yeah a good distinction.

Okay I'm on a computer for a few minutes while I'm icing my ankle and then it's back to my tablet and the possibility of passing out lol.

I'm pulling out your red quotes Prism:

This felt extremely town to me at the time, and on most rereads. I can see a world where bork is trying to fish out where he's going wrong, but bork had previously been pretty annoyed by several ~not ideal~ suggestions by sangres beforehand, such as in 1088 and with the voteswaps around mastina. The disappointment and demand line up well with someone who has high expectations of both players in the sangres slot.

Yeah they definitely had interactions, and quite frankly the suggestion that he's responding to in 1088 is one I remember not really agreeing with or paying much attention to at the time, but you giving the artifact to Bork never really interested me in the way that it maybe should have. I thought your early play seemed pretty town and didn't think you were the kind of player that would teehee give their partner an artifact and flavor claim in the beginning of the game, and the way you interacted with Bork about the artifact felt town to me and reinforced my initial town read. So really all I thought was that you were unlikely to be partners, so that was her inquiry and I just shrugged my shoulders about it. But the point there is that she had expressed some suspicion previously; it wasn't coming from nowhere.

The prior sentence confuses me because both are extremely understandable things to be frustrated about, not that people should know it but that bork softed visiting sangres, wanted to visit them, wanted to townblock, felt bad about being wrong on the mastina wagon, only to have them die instead. To be blunt, the sangres visit claim is absolutely brilliant as scum

It felt like he was getting after spiffeh for not knowing that. And that seemed a bit unfair and odd to expect him to know that.

I guess you kind of get it here but I just...don't really see the same scum intent here that you do, honestly. I reviewed the deflection about you to Spiffeh. I can see why he'd say it as scum, but I see the town bork world too, and I don't think he's seriously pushing you?

Hmmm. I think you're thinking that when I'm looking at these things that I'm saying Bork is scum here for doing this. I do think that a town bork would also push spiffeh for something that seemed like selective scumhunting, but it felt odd to me to blanket compare the two as the same. ffery did get paranoid a couple times, I knew she would, and wanted nacho to give her support there. Which, side note, if Nacho had the tiniest glimmer that i was scum here I'd have been dead the moment afternoon started lol. That's besides the point, but it felt odd to me that it was just a blanket comparison when I don't think they were exactly the same. I wasn't meaning he was pushing me for that. It was a problem I had.

But I think where we might be getting crossed here is that I'm not writing this to say this is why Bork is scum. I'm writing this as a way of working out my read on Bork. (I'm now remembering the other night I gave a possible solve that included Bork. I forgot about that. That might be coloring why you think this is a scum case instead of me trying to work out my read on Bork. I did feel that solve in the moment. I don't think that solve is right.)

I think what you're missing is that you've been very demonstrative as to your process, such as in the "all mixed up" post and in 1087, but the result is more often than not ambivalence. For the most part, I'm the only one you've really gone to bat for, which is great, but Bork-and I-both really want to see you go to bat on other slots and take stronger stances (Not that you have to fake them, but that this is the missing link for me, and I suspect for bork too)

Yeah, that's me. I don't think that Bork would expect anything different than that or really stronger stances. Nobody who knows me really would, especially not early. There are some games where my reads come easier; xenoblade was one such game but it moved so fast and made so many pages that I was mostly hip firing my reads and they just happened to be right. I'm probably one of the biggest wafflers you will ever meet; it's so well known that people tried to get a title for me years ago. My posts a lot of the time are me trying to process and work out what I'm seeing and thinking; it squicks people out sometimes who don't know me because they think I'm trying to make a show of what I'm thinking until they get used to me. And then sometimes people will still get after me for posting a lot about nothing. But I work best with people who understand my process and work with it. I don't expect everyone to, and I'm capable of getting things done on my own, but one thing I've always appreciated about Spiffeh is that he's been good at picking out some of the important things in my ramblings and working with me. And nacho's always good about pointing out which of my thoughts are dumb. (You said you don't know how to read me really, and here's one thing. Once you figure out what my wheel's turning looks like vs what I'm trying to make it look like my wheel's are turning, I'm pretty easy to figure out. I do lack a certain bite as scum that is present when I get frustrated as town usually, especially with a friend, but rarely if ever as scum in that way. I'd point out some other things, but my luck is going to run out with drawing town soon I know it, and I'd rather not make it easier to catch me than it already will be.)

You are a strong read I have. I also have a strong townread on Bell, and I had a decently strong townread on Sangres day one. I do also have a decently strong town read on Spiffeh though I do have a little paranoia that I could be wrong there that I keep just going shh shh shh don't worry about it. I do also feel decently strong about Mathblade being town, but there's a little paranoia there too mostly because of how strongly bell scum reads mathblade and one of my mafia weaknesses is feeling I might be wrong when someone else expresses a strong read. Actually now that I think about it, I've had town and scum pools, and I think they've been okayish strong for me even thought they've been in flux. So now I'm just rambling and not sure I'm making sense. (This is not to say I never have strong scum reads. I do sometimes, and I tunnel and will push why they're scum, but still a good number of my posts are going to be me making sense of my view of people and the game.) I take some getting used to.

I, and several other players, have actively pitched just going "fuck it mathblade ig" and while this might be free for borkscum, him telling us to stop being morons 100% makes sense imo

I was one of the people who said I'd hammer there out of frustration, so yeah I know. I can't find the post that I thought existed in which he was scumreading people for wanting to policy there, so I maybe made that up.

But I think here is that all of this stuff he can also do as town, and I'm aware of that. But it's a town read I don't/didn't have and one I'd really like to have, and one I thought I'd have by now. And now I'm not even sure I care about any of my thoughts anymore because I feel bad that I got pissy when I'm trying not to be such a bitch in mafia and get so emotionally invested that I get toxic. But I do like that he looked at the old game you posted and made a comparison. I do like his end reaction to my reaction in some sense, I don't really want to be more townread because I got bitchy I want it because my play is town, but recognizing that if I were scum here I'd probably have used all that build up to put a vote on him is probably what I would have done. Maybe. Probably. I've definitely done something like that before.

Now that I've made a huge mess of thoughts about me and Bork and my approach, I'm going to stop. It's late and I'm going to get back to reading mastina until I pass out.

Pooky - I don't know if you are still scumreading cakez, but do you really think that mastina would park vote her partner for the entirety of day one while refusing to really explain that read? I'm trying to make sense of what mastina was doing yesterday. It kinda feels like she knew she was going down yesterday and spent the day in antispew, but that doesn't line up with the mastina I used to know at all. Things change, and it has been years, but the mastina that I knew was very confident in her ability to make it through a day and get to endgame with the entire town town reading her doesn't add up to that. Does mastina not have that confidence anymore? All in all, I'm not quite sure what to do with Mastina's iso. The positions all feel odd and disjointed like she just wanted to make sure that there was nothing to glean from it upon her inevitable flip.

In post 2828, Bell wrote:Pedit: My read on Tammy is that she's spiky and that I don't wish to be hurt.

I'm really just a fucking sweetheart though

In post 2791, borkjerfkin wrote:

In post 2790, Dunnstral wrote:To put it bluntly, yes, you should at least not be scumreading me when we have similar reads on the rest of the players

this is just not the way I play and I'd just discount that as a reason to read me either way

I'm not attacking you

What you're doing isn't making sense to me

What is your fascination with me? Your read went from town to scum because you don't think I'm a mason, but what am I scum for?

In post 2828, Bell wrote:I don't really think VCA works because I haven't seen a single piece of consistent evidence that it does. I can't find a research paper on it. I can't find a statistical analysis on it. I cannot find a statistically significant finding about it.

So.

On further looking, while I think it's possible Pooky tried to save Mastina through pushing a Sircakez miselim. I actually find Pooky pretty townie overall It's not a town bin. But I have some trouble imagining Pooky responding to Mastina the way he did out the gate. He's usually more tolerant of his scum partners out the gate? Maybe?

*holds up microphone to Pookythemagicalbear* Could you comment on your initial reaction to Mastina and self-meta dazzle me with why you can't possibly be scum this game because of X, Y, and Z?

Pedit: My read on Tammy is that she's spiky and that I don't wish to be hurt.

I wish my only experience with Pooky wasn't with him as scum. Whenever he makes a push on like cakez for instance I'm like that's so similar to Tenet and sort of smoke-filled but not exactly. And I don't have the way he does a town push for a distinction.

That said I did just scroll through the reactions that you're mentioning and they don't feel overly prickly and he did think it could be nai and would vote mastina at end of day if he had to, but I also scrolled through Tenet real quick and he didn't really talk about his partners much. I didn't read the game, so it was just a review of his iso, but he didn't look to interact with them much at all. He definitely didn't have them in his town reads when he turnstiles day one. If he'd have voted there or pushed there, i think all my pooky concerns would be gone until he burns that piece of meta I think is correct to the ground.

@Tammy Thanks for looking at Cakez.
I think Cakez is scum due to it’s the most probable of the weird scenarios.

Mastina as scum talked about Prism constantly while having her vote sit on Cakez. This usually is done when bussing.
The alternative would be if Cakez is town then Mastina talked about Prism badly for distance.

Mastina doesn’t do anything without a reason. It’s more a matter of piecing it together.

I think if Cakez is dead (and to be clear I scumread him) his death is one of the most protown things this game could have.

In post 2837, MathBlade wrote:(and to be clear I scumread him)

Hey thanks for the heads up, I was wondering what your read on sircakez was

Then there is the whole defending/white knighting (depending upon Titus’s alignment). Figuring out why she posted like she did about Titus and combining that with SirCakez’s alignment would give a narrative picture of whether scum were in a good place with wagons or bad.

In post 2838, Dunnstral wrote:

In post 2837, MathBlade wrote:(and to be clear I scumread him)

Hey thanks for the heads up, I was wondering what your read on sircakez was

Hasn’t changed all day. I think at least one scum if not both in Titus + Cakez.

In post 932, mastina wrote:Yaknow I really wanted people to ask me about Prism so I could do this sooner but I actually don't feel like waiting as a reactive thing so I'mma be proactive and put this out.

I actually have a fairly compelling case for why I think Prism is scum here.

In post 296, Prism wrote:First I want to preface this by saying I'm intentionally playing more abrasively. As mentioned before, diversity is nice and I'm tired of playing friends after Iceland.

1: Nine times out of ten, a player saying this is going to be scum. Deliberately altering your playstyle in a game with multiple players intimately familiar with your playstyle and justifying it in advance is a common scum ploy. (Heck I can even back this up with a rather notorious example if you'd like, but suffice to say, this is a real tell.)

2: Nothing Prism has done this game has felt town. Quite the opposite in fact.

3: I believe Prism's flavor claim of being HG Wells--I do not believe HG Wells would be a VT.

4: I believe HG Wells started with the trident. I do not believe HG Wells started with it as town; I believe it was a scum artifact that Prism is trying to get towncred for.

5: I believe the flavor claim of being HG Wells--I do not believe that makes the claim town. Everyone who watched the show probably remembers how HG Wells ended up, as a retired warehouse agent more or less...but did they forget that HG Wells spent

an entire season

as THE series Big Bad? Whose opening episode on the show was

killing the series' long-established Big Bad

? Not out of heroism, but to show how she was eviler and more insane than the first Big Bad? (Whole, sorting algorithm of evil, thing; she killed the previous big bad to show that she was a worse threat than the previous big bad.)

In fact, HG Wells is one of only three Big Bads I can actually remember. (I know there were more than three, pretty sure, but she sticks out to me as one of the three real, non-imaginary-in-your-head Big Bads. The other two being the one she killed and the final Big Bad.)

In other words I think that Prism is a scum HG Wells, who is not a VT, and who started with the flavor-appropriate trident, and passed it on for cheap towncred.

The biggest question is what was going on in 930s that made Mastina wall Prism

In post 929, MathBlade wrote:

In post 926, Dunnstral wrote:

In post 923, MathBlade wrote:

In post 922, Dunnstral wrote:

In post 917, Dunnstral wrote:Really? 152 made me go from nullscum to locktown?

152 was also my first post of the game, by the way

Hey Dunn, I think we’re both being set up here.

Can you do a read wall and I just vote the person lowest on your wall I agree with?

Kinda thinking Mastina Titus?

Just gonna reset all my reads

Other than you?

Titus
Spiffeh

Battle Mage
Sircakez

Scummier near the bottom

I can do BM or Titus. I prefer Titus.

The only thing I see really new(ish) is me saying BM or Titus.

Wondering if Mastina saying “Hey go look at Prism” was her way of trying to pull the shinies card on me and it’s Titus + BM + one?

(I still scumread SirCakez by play and VCA but Cakez being scum doesn’t fit with Mastina’s play)

Like I just can’t shake Spiffeh scum if Titus is. His play today around Titus is too weird. Very defensive. But this exact team fits GreyICE ugh. Damn I wish I knew if Cakez was town this makes life so much easier.

I didn't independently look at cakez, just tried to make sense of mastina's positioning on him and if it was a reason to clear/condemn him. I got nothing. By my understanding of Mastina several years ago, I wouldn't think they were partnered. But I don't really understand anything Mastina did so I'm afraid to lock him on town based on that. I would not put it past her to strong town read a partner though. Basically I came away from it figuring that people's reactions and interactions to mastina might be more telling that her own posts. I definitely don't know her well enough anymore to figure that out.

I did like Cakez' post about having anxiety about the pooky case and that he was going to step away from it. Just gut liked it.

Anyway I'll get to reviewing end of day yesterday and pick up the parts of today I missed later. It's super late now and I should sleep.

Like the kills >> One on each wagon points to Cakez scum
Wagon stall eod while counter wagon majority town >> points to Cakez scum
Mastina dead voting Cakez while speaking about Prism >> points to Cakez scum
Mastina defends/WK Titus >> NAI but Mastina thought it important enough to do , why and not me? Titus’s reads bad D1? Maybe she thinks I see through it?

The only thing giving me pause is why Mastina walls right there. SirCakez is scum by almost every metric I can think of except my Mastina makes a certain post unless it’s Cakez Titus BM
I just don’t think I am hero solving based on gut.

Going to bed now but I hope I explained why Cakez and Titus are good flips

In post 2806, Titus wrote:

In post 2803, DrippingGoofball wrote:A horrendous VCA she strongly believes in is probably a town tell for her.

What's horrible about it? You seem intent to come in and criticize me (discredit if in a negative mood). Do you disagree with my conclusion on Battle Mage? It's even fueled with some in thread events.

I'm town-reading you for being wrong, so it's not, shall we say, discrediting from a scum perspective?

I'm town and your VCA has me down as solid scum. So, from my POV, your VCA cannot have any value. You as me if I would consider your conclusion that Battle Mage is scum. It would be absurd for me to agree that Battle Mage is scum based on the VCA.

In post 2846, DrippingGoofball wrote:It would be absurd for me to agree that Battle Mage is scum based on the VCA.

Correct but I was asking what you thought of him independently of that. Sorry it may have been unclear.

In post 2808, Titus wrote:I think that post shows DGB's agenda. She doesn't care about sorting me, she cares about discrediting me.

Again, that's not true since I'm town-reading you for it. I may be discrediting your method and your conclusion, but I am crediting the process and the earnestness. The fact that I am town-reading you means I have cared enough to sort you already, so "She doesn't care about sorting me" is also wrong.

I say this affectionately, you do scumread me disproportionately to my probability of being scum in any given game. One day you'll find a way to calibrate your scumdar; there are other players that can read me correctly.

My strongest town read is Prism. I hope someone doc-protects her.